Drogue, worth having one?

[Unclematt]

As I prep my boat for extended coastal cruising and the Loop, I was wondering how many people have a drogue and does it get used? Is this a case of having to fit even more ****? I am that guy that wants to be prepared for whatever comes my way.

 

[mvweebles]

Depends on your intended cruising grounds. When I finally head south towards Panama Canal, I will carry the most compact chute I can find to provide drift resistance if needed to make repairs or mid ocean service. My experience is mostly Pacific Coast of North America where prevailing weather is from the NW so having a buffer for the lee shore is helpful.

But I think it extremely rare that power boaters carry such devices. Note that my use case is not storm survival, but to buy time in event of engine failure. I forget the TF thread a year or two ago, but was an "ah-ha" moment for me that made my decision about a chute or drogue.

Peter

 

[AlanT]

Always carried a Jordan drogue when we were ocean crossing and would consider again as a means of controlling drift if we make any serious offshore passages. Currently no.
~A

 

[syjos]

We carried one aboard Sandpiper for 20 years when we were going to the Broughtons and further north. Lots of open areas where if the single dies, I can use the chute to point the bow towards the waves while I troubleshoot, repair and restart. Plus it reduces boat drift.

Now that we don't go that far north, sold the never used Para-Tech Sea Anchor on eBay.

 

[High Wire]

Coastal cruising, no. Open ocean passage making with a single engine, sure if it makes you feel better.

 

[mvweebles]

Coastal cruising, no. Open ocean passage making with a single engine, sure if it makes you feel better.

When I realized need for drift control, I decided that coastal is exactly the use case for which I'd carry one. Does depend on how you define coastal. I'd say generally within a couple hundred miles, 3+ days

Peter

 

[DDW]

I've got one just for the purpose of settling the boat for repair. On a river this isn't of much use. In deeper and bigger water it may be. Even a bit of a seaway can make working on a disabled boat - especially a disabled motorboat - a sickening affair. You are rolling broadside to the seaway with your head down in the ER sniffing diesel fumes. If you can anchor, or are shortly going to drift to where you can anchor, that would be a lot easier than a deploy/retrieve of a parachute.

 

[rgano]

Not needed for the trip you have planned.

 

[ofer]

I have wondered and eventually hope to test a DIY one made from a cut 55 gal poly drum. i have designed it in my head and hope to try it one day.

Anyone actually made one?

 

[ScottC]

I carry a very compact one -- mainly to steady things as much as possible if I need to perform repairs. Have experimented with it, but have never had to use it "for real" yet.

 

[psneeld]

Drougues and sea anchors are 2 different things.....although a drogue that is large enough can keep the bow into the seas when desired. A sea anchor is never used in manuevering.

 

[Unclematt]

Thanks everyone. The longest trip would be to the Bahamas or crossing one of the Great Lakes. I will be sure to have a good weather window before doing either one. I want to be prepared so I read, research and ask questions.

 

[mvweebles]

Thanks everyone. The longest trip would be to the Bahamas or crossing one of the Great Lakes. I will be sure to have a good weather window before doing either one. I want to be prepared so I read, research and ask questions.

Personally, I wouldn't bother for this use case, even to The Bahamas. Drogue/sea-anchor is a device of last resort when you are truly beyond all other help. They take a fair amount of storage space which is a premium on my 36-foot Willard.

If your concern was surviving storm conditions (vs drift abatement), would definitely encourage you to invest in weather forecasting skills and access to weather products. My understanding is the Great Lakes region can be tricky as localized extreme weather conditions can erupt quickly.

Good luck - always good to see a unique question on TF!

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

When constructing our last boat at the stern quarters put in very large backing plates. These were structurally connected to the heavy glass deck/hull junction as well as other structural members. On the outside another stainless steel plate extending well beyond the stern cleat was structurally bonded to the backing plate by multiple bolts. Both plate were tapped as well to accept those bolts.
Had multiple discussions with the designer and manufacturer of JSD. Although the loading on a JSD is less than with a sea anchor it is very significant. Few boats are constructed or properly modified to accept those loading cycles throughout several days of survival level storms. Modifying at time of construction was equal to the cost of the device. Modifying after completion of construction would be a multiple of that for many boats or not feasible at all.
I think there’s little question that for survival storm conditions the JSD is the preferred device being entirely passive once deployed. Unlike sea anchors it also is retrievable by a short handed amateur crew. In practice sea anchors of adequate size to work in survival conditions are often cut free after use. Here again it’s not uncommon for major modifications to be required so that a sea anchor doesn’t destroy the structure of the boat.
Anyone who has been pooped can attest to the massive forces involved. Most recreational trawlers do not have the structural integrity to survive significant pooping without down flooding. Neither is the glass of the saloon adequate to survive a knock down. Nor is even the house itself. They are B not A boats with few exceptions. Many are dependent upon a functional engine to maintain their storm strategy.
I switched from a blue water sailboat (with a JSD) to a B rated trawler. They are totally different beasts. They should be used accordingly. Even with A rated recreational trawlers unless use of a large sea anchor or a JSD is considered at time of design neither maybe a viable option. Given unlike grp or carbon metal is iso in strength (equally strong in any direction) it might be easier to design for contemplated JSD use in metal construction. However the design still needs to consider down flooding risk and maintaining structural integrity in response green water, pooping and being overwhelmed.
For the recreational trawler use of warps to allow steerage in the event of catastrophic rudder failure maybe worthwhile. But for a 32’ recreational trawler carrying either a sea anchor of adequate size or a JSD should be low on the list behind storm shutters, life raft, epirb, no enclosures etc.

 

[mvweebles]

When constructing our last boat at the stern quarters put in very large backing plates. These were structurally connected to the heavy glass deck/hull junction as well as other structural members. On the outside another stainless steel plate extending well beyond the stern cleat was structurally bonded to the backing plate by multiple bolts. Both plate were tapped as well to accept those bolts.
Had multiple discussions with the designer and manufacturer of JSD. Although the loading on a JSD is less than with a sea anchor it is very significant. Few boats are constructed or properly modified to accept those loading cycles throughout several days of survival level storms. Modifying at time of construction was equal to the cost of the device. Modifying after completion of construction would a multiple of that for many boats or not feasible.
I think there’s little question that for survival storm conditions the JSD is the preferred device being entirely passive once deployed. Unlike sea anchors it also is retrievable by a short handed amateur crew. In practice sea anchors of adequate size to work in survival conditions are often cut free after use. Here again it’s not uncommon for major modifications to be required so that a sea anchor doesn’t destroy the he structure of the boat.
Anyone who has been pooped can attest to the massive forces involved. Most recreational trawlers do not have the structural integrity to survive significant pooping without down flooding. Neither is the glass of the saloon adequate to survive a knock down. They are B not A boats with few exceptions. Many are dependent upon a functional engine to maintain their storm strategy.
I switched from a blue water sailboat (with a JSD) to a B rated trawler. They are totally different beasts. They should be used accordingly.

Glad you chimed in Hippocampus. Question - for a trawler such as your N42, what are your thoughts for drift-abatement in case of mechanical failure? To buy time when making a prolonged coastal passage?

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

When constructing our last boat at the stern quarters put in very large backing plates. These were structurally connected to the heavy glass deck/hull junction as well as other structural members. On the outside another stainless steel plate extending well beyond the stern cleat was structurally bonded to the backing plate by multiple bolts. Both plate were tapped as well to accept those bolts.
Had multiple discussions with the designer and manufacturer of JSD. Although the loading on a JSD is less than with a sea anchor it is very significant. Few boats are constructed or properly modified to accept those loading cycles throughout several days of survival level storms. Modifying at time of construction was equal to the cost of the device. Modifying after completion of construction would a multiple of that for many boats or not feasible.
I think there’s little question that for survival storm conditions the JSD is the preferred device being entirely passive once deployed. Unlike sea anchors it also is retrievable by a short handed amateur crew. In practice sea anchors of adequate size to work in survival conditions are often cut free after use. Here again it’s not uncommon for major modifications to be required so that a sea anchor doesn’t destroy the he structure of the boat.
Anyone who has been pooped can attest to the massive forces involved. Most recreational trawlers do not have the structural integrity to survive significant pooping without down flooding. Neither is the glass of the saloon adequate to survive a knock down. They are B not A boats with few exceptions. Many are dependent upon a functional engine to maintain their storm strategy.
I switched from a blue water sailboat (with a JSD) to a B rated trawler. They are totally different beasts. They should be used accordingly.

Agreed. Rigging to handle a sea anchor (or a smaller drogue used as such) make sense in my mind, if nothing more than to control drift and keep the bow pointed upwind while working on a problem. But rigging for sustained use of a drogue is a challenge, and on many powerboats, running with a drogue is a questionable idea anyway due to concern for getting pooped (as well as behavior with a wide transom).



If I think of something like my boat with a loss of power, if you can keep the bow upwind, you'll survive, but it's likely to be a miserable ride. Otherwise, it's questionable. Running downwind, the only use I could see for trailing a drogue would be a small one to help stabilize the stern if running at low speed. However, you wouldn't want to slow the boat down much for risk of pooping, so you'd want to increase engine power (which would increase load on the drogue, but also increase rudder authority).



Realistically, on anything SD or planing, if you've got the fuel range and all engines running, the best solution to running downwind is to just speed up until you stop getting pushed around and gain good control.

 

[psneeld]

Drogues can be used for slow vessels in running breaking inlets, they can be rigged for emergency steering, they can be used when being towed to straighten a tow out after a steering casualty, they can be rigged from the bow or elsewhere (not their usual place) to keep the bow into wind and wave during no power situations......

I think a drogue sized to help in these situations would be a good idea for a looper or Bahamas crossing.

I can remember one miserable afternoon in the lower Delaware Bay when my dampened plate failed and seized the engine....anchoring made things worse due to 90 degree opposed waves to curren but near a lee shore.

 

[Hippocampus]

For steering a warp is usually sufficient. Take every d-mn line on the boat tie a bunch of knots in them to increase drag. Half off either stern quarter. Adjust length to effect steerage. My friend Mike Hayworth did this with his old Swan. It worked and he published an article about how to do it.
For drag same thing but make a loop. Advantage is if necessary can attach fenders to prevent fouling the running gear. Alternatively strip canvas (Bimini, aft cockpit cover +/or enclosure, steady sail etc.) . Attach weight in the center. (Ideally use dinghy anchor and chain). Tie leads to corners. Tie leads to central line. Can be used off bow or stern as necessary. Can see utility of a small sea anchor such as used when fishing but things like a gale rider or such don’t seem to have anyplace on a small recreational powerboat.
My reality is I’m more likely to be me and the bride. Would deploy anchor and all the chain (250’) or what’s appropriate . Set up snubbers. Drift until I caught. Meanwhile get on the horn and call one of your colleagues if necessary. For your posts particulars with the seakeeper running believe I could mess around in the ER with out losing my cookies.

Think some people don’t consider going backward fast or in big jerks puts loads on your steering mechanisms and rudder they may not be able to take. On most small B trawlers if deploying a sea anchor off the bow I would want to secure the rudder in neutral by some means independent of the steerage linkage or hydraulics if so controlled. On many small recreational boats depending upon situation deploying a sea anchor off the bow would just be a recipe for more deconstruction as rudder and its supports aren’t able to bear those loads.

 

[psneeld]

Well I just don' know.....as a guy who has towed many a boat through breakers.... you can use a warp..but especially a really long one in shallow or with other vessels around....but not me.

The OP is looping, not crossing an ocean where "ocean tactics/equipment" aren't necessarily best.

A sufficient drogue for many vessels here just doesn't take up that much room.

Leave home without one? Sure, I have many a time...and yet there were times I wish I had one.

One ever save my life or boat? I doubt it...but it made life easier and after using one for simple things or practice, you see the usefulness of one....also you don't have to star cannibalizing the boat to make one..

Like the time I lost my rudder on the towboat...fell completely out of the boat. Rigged a sturdy, reinforced bucket to steer with and drove the boat through winding tidal creeks to a boat ramp to meet my boss with a spare rudder. That bucket was reinforced just for being a drogue, but 2as still a useful bucket

Back in operation within the hour.

 

[Hippocampus]

Can’t disagree with you PS. As said can see the utility of a small drogue or sea anchor in some limited circumstances.

Still, you’re the real deal. An experienced sea man. What follows doesn’t apply to you or many here What bothers me about this thread and so many safety threads is the unrealistic attitude. In the absence of a purpose built boat and sufficient skill set from prior experience you have no business getting into these situations. Hypothetical or not. No amount of add on equipment would make an iota of difference beyond a good liferaft and SAS training. A pig is a pig regardless of how you dress it up. Have had people call uncle in a fresh breeze and 4-6’. Days I would leave on passage with experienced crew. People have no experience in the slop and approach weather will unjustified hubris. They worrying about what to add to the boat rather than getting progressive experience so they won’t be paralyzed by fear. Sure on a BWB it’s likely you’ll fail before the boat. But the vast majority of both power and sail just aren’t proper sea boats. Think if you got rid of hubris and schedules you would of had a lot fewer calls.

 

[DDW]

There are (at least) two distinct and very different scenarios being discussed - and mixed up - here. One is the deployment of a drag device to survive heavy weather. The other is the deployment of a drag device to keep the bow into the seas in moderate weather.

In the former case you need a large heavy drag device, and sufficient rodes and attachments to handle the very large expected loads. Recovery may be difficult (though in the Gulf of Alaska these things are used routinely by fisherman, so it is possible). In the latter case you need a fairly light, compact piece device and retrieval will be relatively easy.

Doing the loop you are very unlikely to run into survival conditions, for the most part shelter is close at hand and weather predictions good enough. A more likely scenario (if still not frequent) is a break down, fuel filters clogged, leak, or some other mechanical problem the disables the engine temporarily. With a 3 or 4' seaway (easily found in the Great Lakes) you are likely to be very uncomfortable as you work on that problem or wait for a tow. This is why I carry one. For the OPs boat, a 9' BOURD surplus parachute ($100) or one of the commercial ones would very likely do the trick. It takes no more room than a 2 gallon bucket and weighs <10 lbs. It will not over stress or even stress existing deck hardware. Set properly with a retrieval float, in moderate conditions, retrieving will only be slightly more complicated than retrieving the anchor.

Yes it is an extra that isn't really needed, like many other things you carry on a cruise. You don't need it, but there may be an occasion when you wished you had it. I remember listening to a distress call to the CG two years ago, owner and wife wanted to be taken off their small cruiser. It was not in immediate danger, conditions were moderate, but the engine was disabled and they were so uncomfortable they were willing to abandon the boat.

It is easy to test: go out someday when you have 4' wind waves. Shut the engine off and drift, spend some time in the engine room. If you like that experience, there isn't any need for a drag device.

 

[fgarriso]

You only need one when you really need one. (in 8-12' seas)

Then you really need one!

 

[psneeld]

Hip.....most here are not going to sea...so preparing for the worst is a bit of overkill.

Out of my last 20,000 miles on my trawler (a lousy sea boat)...I don't think I have more than 100 miles beyond the demarcation lines.

But a nice 3-4 foot diameter drogue could have been handy once or a pair of smaller ones.

 

[AKDoug]

I am preparing to buy one for my transit down the coast to Mexico, planning on using it to control my drift and keep my bow into the weather while I take short naps on the couple of long passages I will be making single handed. I don't plan to use it in heavy weather or near shore, but in calm (relatively) periods, spotting out the weather windows for my passages.

My boat rolls considerably in bed seas, so keeping the bow into any weather is a must if I want to get any rest. Cruising at my best fuel efficient speeds lengthens my passages and I can only make 70 mies in a 12-14 hour period. Some of the stretches are 140 miles or more, so single handing with a single engine it just seems to be a good idea.

 

[Hippocampus]

DDW’s post is spot on. However even doing the loop would think occasions to deploy any sort of drag device would be extremely limited. The Great Lakes present the same levels of extreme weather as elsewhere in the open ocean. Just note the number of ships sunk. However with a bit of forethought he’s not going to see “the gales of November”.
Even rereading Matt’s OP my impression is he asked generically about drogues.

 

[OldDan1943]

I had a drogue for my N46. It took up most a full size dock box once packing the lines and hardware. When the boat was totaled I 'donated' to Chapman's school. Nice tax write off. Never used it.

 

[psneeld]

I had a drogue for my N46. It took up most a full size dock box once packing the lines and hardware. When the boat was totaled I 'donated' to Chapman's school. Nice tax write off. Never used it.

Drogue or sea anchor?

Drogues usually aren't that big unless you had a tiny dock box.

 

[DDW]

The Great Lakes present the same levels of extreme weather as elsewhere in the open ocean. Just note the number of ships sunk. However with a bit of forethought he’s not going to see “the gales of November”.
Even rereading Matt’s OP my impression is he asked generically about drogues.

It's pretty easy in the Great Lakes to chose your weather well enough not to get caught, there is almost nowhere on them more than say 12 hours run to a safe harbor. There are thunderstormy squalls but those are hardly survival, anything big is visible days ahead. However in the event of a disable and wanting to heave to a sea anchor while you work, there are plenty of places on the loop - Great Lakes and otherwise - where this could happen.

I can't think of any reason to want a drogue.

 

[psneeld]

Useful if you are used to using one...but not necessarily a high demand item unless I. Certain areas, conditions or operations.

Any of those come up and it's pretty useful.

 

[Unclematt]

You guys have convinced me not to get one. I need to stop browsing the Defender website.