Shore Power Breaker, Boat Side

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Circuit breakers are often used for switching on boats....

Many main panels have slide protectors when switching from main to genset...and other things too...look at all the labels.....most people dont follow up with a separate switch as marine CBs are usually designed to cover both functions as stated below.

From West Marine

Rocker actuator is flush in the "ON" position, eliminating the risk of accidental switching
Color actuator indicates "OFF" position
Provides overcurrent protection for inverters, bow thrusters, and windlasses

Combines switching and circuit protection into a single device

"Trip Free" cannot be held closed after trip
Ignition protected safe for installation aboard gasoline powered boats

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/blue...rcuit-breakers--P009_273_007_523?recordNum=11

Trip free same thing with standard industrial-house breakers. You can not force them to stay on by jamming the handle over.
 
Can someone quote the text from ABYC's 10' rule?

David

From E11 - 7/03

[I]11.12.2.9.3
If the location of the main shore power disconnect circuit breaker is in excess of 10 feet (three meters) from the shore power
inlet or the electrical attachment point of a permanently installed shore power cord, additional fuses or circuit breakers shall be
provided within 10 feet (three meters) of the inlet or attachment point to the electrical system of the boat. Measurement is made
along the conductors.[/I]
 
There aren't many permanently installed power cords. Just cord sockets. Now I am confused by the wording.
 
A fusible disconnect would meet the requirement. With the 240 vac rating, both sides are fused.

This one is NEMA 3R, small and cheap. To turn off, pull handle and reinsert upside down.
GE 30 Amp 120/240-Volt 240-Watt Fused AC Disconnect-TF30RCP - The Home Depot

Our house used to have fuses, before I upgraded from 150 to 200 amp meter box and changed to a Square-D Homeline breaker panel. I never blew the large fuses. I did blow the 15 to 20 amp fuses. I even have couple of fusible disconnects, but did not use them on the boat, mostly I like breakers better. Mostly cause, if your going to blow fuses, the cost after several replacements exceeds the cost of just buying the breaker style to begin with.

But in the years since installing the dual 30 amp breakers for the shoreline, I have never popped a breaker. The main breaker panel simply pops a breaker first and most are 15 or 20 amp circuit. Only 30 amp breaker I think is for my princess-stove-oven. Never popped the oven breaker yet. I suppose, you could run over that 30 amp limit, running too many devices and pop the 30 amp breakers in the shore line, but I have not done it yet. I am frugal on the shore power. But on Gen I have loaded down to 50 amps while testing things. It was hard finding enough power gobblers to get even to 50 amps on the boat. I have a 60 amp breaker on the gen.

I have piles of good fuses of all kinds.
 
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Can someone quote the text from ABYC's 10' rule?


11.10.2.8 Location of Overcurrent Protection – AC Circuits

11.10.2.8.1 Each ungrounded current carrying conductor shall be protected by a circuit breaker or fuse.

11.10.2.8.1.1 A circuit breaker or fuse shall be placed at the source of power for each circuit or conductor except:

11.10.2.8.1.1.1 if it is physically impractical to place the circuit breaker or fuse at the source of power, it can be placed within seven inches (178 mm) of the source of power for each circuit or conductor, measured along the conductor;

11.10.2.8.1.1.2 if it is physically impractical to place the circuit breaker or fuse at or within seven inches of the source of power, it can be placed within 40 inches (102 cm) of the source of power for each circuit or conductor, measured along the conductor, if the conductor is contained throughout its entire distance between the source of power and the required circuit breaker or fuse in a sheath or enclosure such as a junction box, control box, or enclosed panel.

EXCEPTION TO E-11.10.2.8.1.1: Overcurrent protection as required in sections E-11.10.2.8.3 and E-11.10.2.8.4.

11.10.2.8.2 Simultaneous trip circuit breakers shall be provided in power feeder conductors as follows:

11.10.2.8.2.1 120 volt AC, single phase - ungrounded and grounded conductors (white),

11.10.2.8.3 Additional Overcurrent Protection - If the location of the main shore power disconnect circuit breaker is in excess of 10 feet (three meters) from the shore power inlet or the electrical attachment point of a permanently installed shore power cord, additional fuses or circuit breakers shall be provided within 10 feet (three meters) of the inlet or attachment point to the electrical system of the boat. Measurement is made along the conductors.

11.10.2.8.3.1 If fuses are used in addition to the main shore power disconnect circuit breaker, their rating shall be such that the circuit breakers trip before the fuses open the circuit, in the event of overload. The ampere rating of the additional fuses or circuit breaker shall not be greater than 125% of the rating of the main shore power disconnect circuit breaker. For 120 volt service, both the grounded and ungrounded current carrying conductors shall be provided with this additional overcurrent protection.

11.10.2.8.4 If required, overcurrent protection for power-feeder conductors from AC generators and inverters, shall be within seven inches (178 mm) of the output connections or may be within 40 inches (102 cm) of the output connections if the unprotected insulated conductors are contained throughout their entire distance in a sheath or enclosure such as a conduit, junction box or enclosed panel.

11.11 GROUND FAULT PROTECTION – AC

11.11.1 An Equipment Leakage Circuit Interrupter (ELCI) or Type A Residual Current Device (RCD) shall be installed with or in addition to the main shore power disconnect circuit breaker(s) or at the additional overcurrent protection as required by E-11.10.2.8.3 whichever is closer to the shore power connection.
 
There aren't many permanently installed power cords. Just cord sockets. Now I am confused by the wording.


There are plenty of them out there, though mostly on 38'+ vessels. Most will be Glendinning brand but, there are others out there too.

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201732_l.jpg
 
Thank you CMS.

So to summarize:

You need a breaker that trips both hot and neutral within 10' of your shorepower inlet and that breaker needs to be an ELCI or RCD device.

In addition, the NEC requires an ELCI or RCD breaker at the marina's shore power receptacle.

In the case of my boat's power system that would require two two pole breakers and ELCI/RCD's (one at the pedestal and another within 10' of the shore power inlet) in addition to the one on the main power panel and in addition to the GFCI's that protect the galley/head outlets.

Wow, there are a lot of breakers and ELCI/RCD's involved in shore power. I wonder who wrote these rules requiring multiple ELCI's or RCD's, the electrical component manufacturer's?

David
 
Thank you CMS.

So to summarize:

You need a breaker that trips both hot and neutral within 10' of your shorepower inlet and that breaker needs to be an ELCI or RCD device.

In addition, the NEC requires an ELCI or RCD breaker at the marina's shore power receptacle.

In the case of my boat's power system that would require two two pole breakers and ELCI/RCD's (one at the pedestal and another within 10' of the shore power inlet) in addition to the one on the main power panel and in addition to the GFCI's that protect the galley/head outlets.

Wow, there are a lot of breakers and ELCI/RCD's involved in shore power. I wonder who wrote these rules requiring multiple ELCI's or RCD's, the electrical component manufacturer's?

David

How many people do you think have an ELCI? I know of none.
I have been to 6 different marinas in the last few months, no ELCI.
ABYC is a guide. The guide is constantly changing.
This thread started with a surveyor telling the poster had to install a breaker, no mention of ELCI.

The marina here was completely rebuilt in 2009. Their new electric has standard 30 amp breakers, no ELCI. But I do like the idea of ELCI.
 
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Thank you CMS.

So to summarize:

You need a breaker that trips both hot and neutral within 10' of your shorepower inlet and that breaker needs to be an ELCI or RCD device.

If you desire your vessel to be ABYC compliant then yes you would need an ELCI or RCD main breaker.

In addition, the NEC requires an ELCI or RCD breaker at the marina's shore power receptacle.

Unfortunately that is not what they currently require but it would be the correct way to phase in this new piece of code.

In the case of my boat's power system that would require two two pole breakers and ELCI/RCD's (one at the pedestal and another within 10' of the shore power inlet) in addition to the one on the main power panel and in addition to the GFCI's that protect the galley/head outlets.

Wow, there are a lot of breakers and ELCI/RCD's involved in shore power. I wonder who wrote these rules requiring multiple ELCI's or RCD's, the electrical component manufacturer's?

David

Marina's only need to change to ELCI protection if upgrading the system. This will leave hundreds oft thousands of vessels without land based ground fault protection for many years to come.

I have posted this here before but many folks simply don't understand the impact of the NFPA/NEC requirements and the shoddy wiring we have on boats. It is a real problem and getting worse very time a new marina needs to comply.

NFPA/NEC Shore Based Mess:

The current NFPA 70 / NEC requirements Article 555 Marinas & Boatyards, which rolled out in 2011, requires a 100mA ground fault protection level for marina docks. In the upcoming 2017 NFPA 70 / NEC 555 this maximum level is reportedly going to drop from 100mA to 30mA.

The Problem:

#1 NFPA 70 / NEC requirements do not mandate protection at each dock pedestal, which would be the only prudent way to adopt or phase this into an entire industry where the safety standards are voluntary and arguably grossly ignored.

As I type this I am currently waiting for a customers phone to cool down so we can continue troubleshooting his shore system via video messaging. He is in the BVI and can't find a decent electrician to save his life. So far we've found on-board AC neutral bonded to AC Earth and his two 30A shore inlets have common neutral bonding. Somewhere in his travels he had a failed 8kW generator ripped out, by some hacks, who left a ghost transfer switch and ran the ghost wires to where ever they found an open terminal. It is a freaking mess, a mess I repeatedly tried to talk him into fixing before he headed off cruising. "seems to work" he'd say.... He began complaining of issues when his vessel began tripping up to code marina's and shutting entire docks down. The non-transients were none too happy and the marinas finally told him not to plug in..

As a result of NFPA/NEC not requiring ground fault protection at the pedestal level, for each boat, any vessel plugging into a dock pedestal that is protected by an upstream ground fault device can create nuisance trips for every boat on that feed.

Shore based ground fault devices that cover multiple pedestals (boats), can result in a nuisance trip that depowers all the boats on that string and create a lost power situation to all of those vessels, just as my customer has done, at no less than 3 or 4 marinas since leaving Maine.

This NFPA / NEC roll out has already cost boaters significant $$ in destroyed battery banks etc.. Unfortunately the boaters who lost out may not have been the ones who created the problem just the recipient of what I often refer to as Darryl & Darryl wiring, for those old enough to get the Newhart reference.. No offense to any Darryl's out there....

The NFPA / NEC ground fault requirements are only serving to expose the horrendous wiring that has gone on in the marine industry for far too long. Even if your boat is properly wired, to ABYC standards, you can still suffer the consequences of Darryl & Darryl hack jobbing their own boat because teh NFPA/NEC requirement is not at the power pedestal/individual boat level.

For what it is worth I have very infrequently come across an owner who believed it was their boat creating the leakage or corrosion issues. In almost all cases it starts out as "someone else's problem" until the fault is found on-board...

#2 Far too many boats out there are not wired to meet or exceed the ABYC safety standards. The NFPA / NEC could really care less about this, it's not their issue. When you plug an incorrectly wired vessel into the new NFPA /NEC shore standards, requiring ground fault protection, it can now becomes everyone's issue not just the problem vessel.

Boats that are not wired to current ABYC standards, as a group, have very, very high ground fault percentages. For example the number of boats I measure with AC grounding (GREEN) and AC Neutral (WHITE) bonded on-board the vessel is in the range of 35-40% +/-. This is INSANE, but it is the reality of a voluntary standard that has gone largely ignored by boatowners and far too many folks who call themselves marine electricians..

Bottom Line? Improperly wired vessels, vessels not wired to ABYC standards, can cause nuisance tripping of shore ground fault interrupters.

The sheer age of many vessels also means some of them have equipment that is so antiquated that it too creates an inadvertent neutral to grounding bond.

#3 The Rx?

Marina Rx: Marina's who want happy customers should ideally install a ground fault device at each pedestal so one boat can not take out an entire dock or entire group of vessels. This is in compliance with NFPA 70 / NEC and actually exceeds the minimum requirements. By installing a ground fault device at each pedestal this prevents Darryl & Darryl's stellar wiring job from taking out your boat when they create a nuisance trip.

Marina's also need to comprehend and understand that leakage is additive. If we have ten boats each leaking 4 mA, which is not even enough for each boat to trip an individual 110V 5mA GFCI, those ten boats together can trip a single 30 mA ground fault device.

Marina's should prohibit vessels that cause a nuisance trips, from plugging into their system, until the fault has been corrected. If a vessel is tripping a 100mA threshold device (and this is not due to additive leakage) this creates a very dangerous potential for electric shock drowning.

The issue & mess of nuisance tripping will only get worse when the NEC drops to 30mA in 2017..

Marina's need to fully understand the new requirements and be trained on how to conduct spot audits and to check for individual vessel issues that would otherwise create problems for the rest of their customers. Or do it right and install a 30mA device at each pedestal, this way only the offending customer is left without power..

When a marina is re-wired they now need to become in compliance with the current shore based standards. Shore standards extend to the dock pedestal receptacle, and ABYC standards begin at the shore power cordset.

This problem of nuisance tripping is only going to get worse, much worse as time goes on and more and more marinas become in compliance with the NFPA 70 / NEC requirements. Once the code drops to 30mA, to protect multiple pedestals, it will become even worse.



Boat Owner Rx:
Wire your vessel to the current ABYC standards and you will no longer create dangerous situations, power loss or dead batteries for those around you who do have properly wired boats.

Two Easy Tests for 120V 30A Service (these two tests barely scratch the surface but its a start):

1- Use a high resolution AC clamp meter set to measure A or mA. Extech, Yokogowa and Fluke all make excellent AC leakage clamp testers. Ideally every marina should own one. Power up your on-board AC devices (hopefully all of them) & place the clamp around your shore power cord. The reading should be 0.0A. Any reading above this is indicating an amperage imbalance between the hot and neutral AC conductors and indicating that this missing current is leaking elsewhere eg: into the water..

2- One of the easiest tests or starting points is to physically unplug your vessel from the pedestal and be sure your inverter is decoupled from DC so it does not auto-invert. Make sure any manual transfer switches are set to SHORE. Now test for continuity between AC WHITE/Neutral and AC GREEN/Earth/Grounding pins at the shore end of the cord or at your on-board grounding bus and neutral bus.. There should be no continuity.

If you find issues you are unsure of I would suggest bringing in a professional....
 
This thread has certainly opened my eyes to boat AC wiring issues. Thank you CMS. You obviously know your stuff. In my experience, not many in the marine industry do.

David
 
There is no requirement to update your boat (or your home or marina) every time the code is updated. it may be a good idea, depending on circumstances, but it is not a requirement.


For example, the ABYC now requires DC negative wires to be coded yellow, not black if the boat is equipped with shore power. I am not required to replace all my black DC negative wiring and nothing would be gained by doing so.
 
Just for general information, I have been looking to see who makes ELCI type 30 ma breakers and found a few. I seen Murray and Siemens.
Siemens has one for various amps, single and dual pole. Which fit in a GE box, not that GE would approve. ;)

I have not seen a GE ground fault equipment protection breaker.

Screen shot of Siemens ELCI type breakers.
https://w3.usa.siemens.com/powerdis...t-catalog/Documents/sf-11-sect-07-019-028.pdf

Although, you do not want to share a neutral and a single pole ELCI wont disconnect both hot and neutral together, and I don't know how a dual pole ELCI breaker from Siemens would behave with both neutral and hot running through it, so there would be issues to determine the suitability on a boat.

Internal wiring diagram is here for these breakers.
https://www.amazon.com/Siemens-QE230-240-Volt-Equipment-Protection/dp/B0052MG3YI
 

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There is no requirement to update your boat (or your home or marina) every time the code is updated. it may be a good idea, depending on circumstances, but it is not a requirement.

Correct, as a boat owner you are not required under any standards to keep your boat in compliance. That said if you have insurance it will be a very good idea, when making any changes or modifications to the vessel, to do them to the current accepted safety standards. I get about 8-20 calls per year having to do with bringing boats up to acceptable insurable condition per an insurance survey. Surveyors survey to ABYC standards..

As marinas re-wire it makes even more sense to keep your boat correctly wired or you run a high risk of creating nuisance trips on the dock ground fault devices.

On land the NFPA 70/NEC is code and depending upon the code inspector there can be little to no wiggle room when an electrician touches your marina. In 2015 the waterfront manager brought in an electrician to address some wiring issues with our dock.

The electrician, by code, had to install a ground falut breaker once he touched that circuit and made changes. If we'd never changed anything we would not be required to come up to code but when you do touch it, or modify it, it then needs to be done to code. You're essentially grandfathered until you touch land based code compliant systems. The result of the electrician following the NEC code, as required, is that it's now exposing the horrendous wiring on many of our members boats who can no longer "plug in to charge" because their vessel is tripping the shore based ground fault device due to non-compliant on-board wiring..


For example, the ABYC now requires DC negative wires to be coded yellow, not black if the boat is equipped with shore power. I am not required to replace all my black DC negative wiring and nothing would be gained by doing so.

This is not an ABYC requirement. The standard is:



E-11 July 2015

"DC Negative Conductors - Black, or Yellow"



It's suggested, in training, that yellow be chosen, for increased safety, but black & yellow are both fully acceptable to use for DC negative wire color. Is yellow safer? You bet, but it is not an ABYC E-11 requirement that you use yellow for DC neg. The easiest compromise is yellow shrink sleeving on the terminal ends of the black wire, if an owner feels compelled to do so.

The ABYC standards also require that every wire be marked for identification, yet even on new builds, this is rarely complied with. If I had to shoot from the hip I'd guess that less than 5% of the boats on the water have their system wiring clearly identified.



"11.14.2.1 WIRING IDENTIFICATION - DC

11.14.2.1.1 Each electrical conductor that is part of the boat's electrical system shall have a means to identify its function in the system."



One can also easily further identify a black DC wiring by using yellow heat shrink sleeving around the conductor ends of the wire. There are a lot of old boats out there using the old White & Black duplex wire, much of it still in very good shape. This white wire does not meet the current ABYC standards for DC color coding. To identify DC negative, in white/black duplex wire, yellow sleeving is often used at the termination end of the wire and now makes the wire identifiable by ABYC standards.



"11.14.2.1.4
Color-coding accomplished by colored sleeving or color application to wiring shall be applied at termination points."
 
Just for general information, I have been looking to see who makes ELCI type 30 ma breakers and found a few. I seen Murray and Siemens.
Siemens has one for various amps, single and dual pole. Which fit in a GE box, not that GE would approve. ;)

I have not seen a GE ground fault equipment protection breaker.

Screen shot of Siemens ELCI type breakers.
https://w3.usa.siemens.com/powerdis...t-catalog/Documents/sf-11-sect-07-019-028.pdf

Although, you do not want to share a neutral and a single pole ELCI wont disconnect both hot and neutral together, and I don't know how a dual pole ELCI breaker from Siemens would behave with both neutral and hot running through it, so there would be issues to determine the suitability on a boat.

Internal wiring diagram is here for these breakers.
https://www.amazon.com/Siemens-QE230-240-Volt-Equipment-Protection/dp/B0052MG3YI

I'm not sure I'm following your point, but an ELCI breaker MUST connect to both the line and neutral for the circuit that it's protecting. Otherwise it can't compare the current in each to detect a fault.
 
Yes, thank you CMS for helping champion this issue.

It's really not that hard for individual boats. All you really need to do is make any repairs or upgrades in a way that's compliant, and take the time to sort out any Daryl & Daryl issues you encounter along the way. And you can either wait until you trip the breaker at a marina to sort out problems, or you can test for them proactively and fix them in advance. The worst thing you can do is to continue to seek ways to cut corners.

Thank you CMS.

So to summarize:

You need a breaker that trips both hot and neutral within 10' of your shorepower inlet and that breaker needs to be an ELCI or RCD device.

Correct. This would go between you inlet and your inverter input, preferably as close to the inlet as possible.

Also, there should be a breaker at the outlet of the inverter since it's a power source just like your gen and shore power. I don't think you mentioned this one. The details are in the ABYC section 11.10.2.4.8 quoted earlier by CMS.

In addition, the NEC requires an ELCI or RCD breaker at the marina's shore power receptacle.

In the case of my boat's power system that would require two two pole breakers and ELCI/RCD's (one at the pedestal and another within 10' of the shore power inlet) in addition to the one on the main power panel and in addition to the GFCI's that protect the galley/head outlets.

Not quite, I don't think. By "main power panel" are you referring to the dock's main power panel? If so, the NEC RCD requirement is for a the main for the dock OR at the pedestal, but not both. And if "main power panel" means the breaker panel on your boat, again, I don't think it's required there. At the shore power inlet - yes. And for wet location outlets, yes, GFCI's are required which have a much more sensitive trip threshold.

Wow, there are a lot of breakers and ELCI/RCD's involved in shore power. I wonder who wrote these rules requiring multiple ELCI's or RCD's, the electrical component manufacturer's?

David

Some might use that as a convenient excuse for not upgrading, but each device protects from faults in different locations and under different conditions. For example, the inlet and dock RCDs provide no protection to the boat's occupants when operating on gen or inverter. And the GFCIs provide no protection against faults in all the other equipment on your boat not powered through the GFCIs. And all your RCDs don't protect against the Daryl & Daryl boat that just plugged in.
 

Boat Owner Rx:
Wire your vessel to the current ABYC standards and you will no longer create dangeous situations, power loss or dead batteries for those around you who do have properly wired boats.

Two Easy Tests for 120V 30A Service (these two tests barely scratch the surface but its a start):

1- Use a high resolution AC clamp meter set to measure A or mA. Extech, Yokogowa and Fluke all make excellent AC leakage clamp testers. Ideally every marina should own one. Power up your on-board AC devices (hopefully all of them) & place the clamp around your shore power cord. The reading should be 0.0A. Any reading above this is indicating an amperage imbalance between the hot and neutral AC conductors and indicating that this missing current is leaking elsewhere eg: into the water..

2- One of the easiest tests or starting points is to physically unplug your vessel from the pedestal and be sure your inverter is decoupled from DC so it does not auto-invert. Make sure any manual transfer switches are set to SHORE. Now test for continuity between AC WHITE/Neutral and AC GREEN/Earth/Grounding pins at the shore end of the cord or at your on-board grounding bus and neutral bus.. There should be no continuity.

If you find issues you are unsure of I would suggest bringing in a professional....

Excellent tests, and certainly the easiest to do.

The down side of test #1 is that it only detects fault current that is returning via some path OTHER than the ground wire in your shore power cable. If the fault current is going back through your own ground system, which is what it's supposed to do, the current in the cable will still sum up to 0.0A. i.e. a false negative.

It's a bit harder to do, but a more thorough test can be done if you can gain access to the individual conductors for your shore power. You could make a short test cable and cut back the cable jacket to expose the wires, or you could access them from inside the boat, perhaps by the power inlet or breaker (if you have one).

Here are the tests, using the same clamp meter described by CMS:

- For 120V (30 or 50A) service, clamp around the line (black) and neutral (white) wires together. Current should be 0.0A. If not, you have a fault current.

- For 250V service, clamp around Line 1 (black), line 2 (red), and neutral (white) together. Current should be 0.0A. If not, you have a fault current.

If the first test does not read 0.0A, then clamp around just the green ground wire. If it's zero, then your fault current is returning via some path other than your ground, most likely via your thruhull bonding system. If you measure any current, then at least some of the fault current is returning through your shore grounding system. Note that fault current can be returning through both paths, so whatever you don't measure in your ground wire is going back through an alternate path.
 
Thank you CMS.

So to summarize:

You need a breaker that trips both hot and neutral within 10' of your shorepower inlet and that breaker needs to be an ELCI or RCD device.

In addition, the NEC requires an ELCI or RCD breaker at the marina's shore power receptacle.

If you desire your vessel to be ABYC compliant then yes you would need an ELCI or RCD main breaker.

I'm sure I'm overlooking something, but how does this requirement for a breaker that trips both hot and neutral apply to an isolation transformer? I have a Charles ISOBoost 50 installed and the shorepower neutral does not even enter the boat, so I'm guessing that only the provision requiring the hot(s) to be protected would apply. (I used Method 1 on page 6). http://www.charlesindustries.com/marine_manual/93-ISOBOOST50-C.pdf

I do have a 50-amp dual-pole breaker within 3 feet of the shorepower inlet (with cables fully enclosed in a panel) but the breaker is not ELCI. (I did just install GFCI's on most circuits.) So am I in compliance?

(Rats! I've got the dreaded 90-degree photo disease.)
 

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Again, there is no requirement to update your wiring every time the code changes. If you were in compliance with the code at the time of the installation, you are "in compliance" now.
 
Again, there is no requirement to update your wiring every time the code changes. If you were in compliance with the code at the time of the installation, you are "in compliance" now.

Thanks. I understand the legal requirements--but some surveyors and insurance companies don't. So it makes sense to me to get as close as possible.
 
I'm sure I'm overlooking something, but how does this requirement for a breaker that trips both hot and neutral apply to an isolation transformer? I have a Charles ISOBoost 50 installed and the shorepower neutral does not even enter the boat, so I'm guessing that only the provision requiring the hot(s) to be protected would apply. (I used Method 1 on page 6). http://www.charlesindustries.com/marine_manual/93-ISOBOOST50-C.pdf

I do have a 50-amp dual-pole breaker within 3 feet of the shorepower inlet (with cables fully enclosed in a panel) but the breaker is not ELCI. (I did just install GFCI's on most circuits.) So am I in compliance?

(Rats! I've got the dreaded 90-degree photo disease.)

I think the conversation started in the context of 30A, 120V service, and that carried through.

For your transformer installation, as you mentioned and as shown in the Charles wiring diagram, the input side of the transformer only uses line 1 and line 2 from the 240V service, and does not use neutral. Our boat is the same way.

As shown in the diagram, there should be a 2 pole RCD between the inlet and transformer, sensing and breaking L1 and L2. Sounds like you have a breaker, but not RCD. A WesK says, you are not required to update, but if you were to be making any changes, it would certainly be advisable to update.

An isolation transformer like you have is really the ideal setup. The only faults that will send current back to shore are faults between the inlet and the primary side of the transformer, so a very, very small scope for failure. Any faults elsewhere on your boat will all result in current trying to get back to your transformer, not the shore, so all faults are confined to your boat.
 
Thanks, twistedtree. Wish I'd run that to ground before going to the time, money and trouble of installing the dual-pole and GFCIs. At the time, I thought only outlets in the heads, ER, galley and outdoors required protection and thought that could be done with fewer spurious trips on the individual outlets. Now, if I upgrade to an RCD or other system-wide protection, I guess I'm stuck with two sensitive trip points on those already-protected circuits.
 
Thanks. I understand the legal requirements--but some surveyors and insurance companies don't. So it makes sense to me to get as close as possible.

If you want to keep up with the latest versions of the electrical code, plumbing code, propane code, etc., that's fine and I applaud you.

However, as for surveyors and insurance companies, they have to understand that boats built in the past aren't up to the latest versions of the codes because these versions weren't written when the boats were built.
 
If you want to keep up with the latest versions of the electrical code, plumbing code, propane code, etc., that's fine and I applaud you.

However, as for surveyors and insurance companies, they have to understand that boats built in the past aren't up to the latest versions of the codes because these versions weren't written when the boats were built.

I agree that things should work that way, WesK--and we did have a sensible, pragmatic surveyor do Stella for us--but I hate to give an insurance surveyor any leverage I don't have to.
 
Thanks, twistedtree. Wish I'd run that to ground before going to the time, money and trouble of installing the dual-pole and GFCIs. At the time, I thought only outlets in the heads, ER, galley and outdoors required protection and thought that could be done with fewer spurious trips on the individual outlets. Now, if I upgrade to an RCD or other system-wide protection, I guess I'm stuck with two sensitive trip points on those already-protected circuits.

I don't think you have wasted any effort. Having the RCD at the inlet doesn't eliminate the need for the GFI protection at wet locations. The reason is that GFIs and RCDs have very different trip points. The GFI is 5ma, where the RCD is 30ma.
 
If you want to keep up with the latest versions of the electrical code, plumbing code, propane code, etc., that's fine and I applaud you.

However, as for surveyors and insurance companies, they have to understand that boats built in the past aren't up to the latest versions of the codes because these versions weren't written when the boats were built.

I think the good surveyor and insurance companies understand that. But it's also the insurance companies prerogative to only insure boats with certain things up to current standards. One would hope these would only be high-risk items like propane and electrical fault protection, and not things like wire colors. But it's ultimately up the insurer and the boat owner to negotiate what's acceptable.
 
Again, there is no requirement to update your wiring every time the code changes. If you were in compliance with the code at the time of the installation, you are "in compliance" now.

The ABYC is not a "code" meaning enforceable by code inspectors. ABYC can conduct spot inspections of manufacturers, whom are building to ABYC standards, but you'll never find the "ABYC boat police" checking up on you.

However if you are insured, and go through an insurance survey, the insurer could care less about when your vessel was built and what the safety standards were at the time. They care about underwriting losses & about safety..

FACT:
As a private boater do not need to comply with the ABYC standards.

CAUSE FOR CONSIDERATION: Your surveyor most likely surveys to ABYC standards and your insurance company underwrites your boat based on the surveyors report.

Below are just a few of the "survey" items I have had to deal with over the years with respect to insurers:

*Bond a keel stepped mast to external ballast (after a strike claim) This is not even an ABYC requirement. I argued this topic direct with customers insurer they claimed their internal data suggested less hull damage on lightning bonded sailboats. Their call, they underwrite it, I bonded it.

*Fix wiring in boats for AC Grounding to DC Grounding non-compliance
*Add over current protection where it did not exist (house banks for example)
*2 Boats for the AC inlet / breaker 10' rule
*Multiple boats for an improper AC main breaker (not double pole)
*Multiple boats for lack of GFCI outlets
*Multiple boats for lack of DC over-current protection
*2 Boats for no reverse polarity indicator and single pole branch breakers.
*Multiple boats for LPG system issues
*1 Boat for AC/DC isolation (cover for AC) behind AC/DC panel
*Multiple boats for fuel system issues (too many to list)
*2 boats for non IP battery chargers in engine spaces
*Approx 4 Boats for ignition protection issues on gas boats
*1 gas boat for lack of a bilge blower
*Lack of case bonding of chargers and inverter/chargers
*2 Boats for a bilge pump alarm
*Multiple boats for deteriorated below waterline hoses
*Remove a non compliant on-demand water heater (Excel)
*Multiple battery system compliance issues including venting, acid containment, terminal protection, hold downs/mounting & over current protection
*Multiple unsafe termination issues (solder, wire nuts, improper lug stacking & multiple unsafe AC wiring issues including exposed terminations
*Steering system failures (meat hooks etc.)

There are more that I am surely just forgetting...

Insurance companies and surveyors today are clearly playing a CYA game. In today's day and age it does pay to use the available safety standards as a solid guideline for boat upgrades.

The survey industry uses them so the closer your boat is to those guidelines (ABYC) the better chance you will have a skating through clean on an insurance survey.

The hot button items I have seen with insurers are:


Seacocks & Hoses
Navigation Lights
Bilge Systems
LPG Systems
Ignition Protection Devices
AC Systems
DC Systems
Fuel Systems
Placards & Labeling

Exhaust Systems
CO & Smoke Detectors

It is getting tougher and tougher to find a lick & stick surveyor these days due to the litigious nature of our society. I am sure they are out there, but NAMS and SAMS are getting very structured and precise in what they want to see. Heck most insurers I deal with will now only deal with NAMS or SAMS certified surveyors. The insurers seem to be trying hard to put unqualified & un-certified shingle hanging surveyors out of business these days. A couple of them now apparently want to see repairs done or inspected by industry certified technicians.

About 5 years ago I had an owner who pulled the "I'm grandfathered because my boat was built before the standards existed." card on the insurance company. Sadly for him they dropped his coverage at renewal and he was on his own..

Once dropped he had an extremely trough time finding insurance for his forty year old boat, beautiful as it was. In the end it cost him $700.00+ more per year than the $120.00 in safety upgrades the insurance company wanted to see. He's now probably spent $4000.00 more in added insurance premiums over the $120.00 in safety improvements the insurance company wanted to see... Grandfathered? Not with his insurer... Opps....

NOTE:"Lick & stick" is a term for those of us in states that require State inspection stickers on cars & trucks. Anyone who's ever owned an old car knows what a "lick & stick" garage is..... A few extra dollars and the problems just go away, and he licks the sticker and slaps it on... (wink)
 
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An insurance policy is nothing more than a contract. If a boat owner agrees to make changes listed by a surveyor in order to obtain insurance then the insurance company will normally give the boat owner an amount of time to make those changes (normally 30 to 90 days). After that time, if there is a casuality, such as a fire or sinking, then the insurance company will determine if the required changes were made. If the changes were not made and that contributed to the casuality, then there is no insurance. True, there are no boat police, but the insurance contract acts as one.
 
Not all items are given amounts of time...some are " prior to use"....

I had one...the surveyor thought the bubble in the compass was a "safety" item and needed to be fixed prior to the boat leaving the brokerage for homeport...even though my navigation limits at the time we're the Chesapeake and Delaware bays and my run was from Annapolis to Cape May.

In a perfect world insurance companies would have reviewers that you could call and negotiate some of the stretches some surveyors make.
 
In a perfect world insurance companies would have reviewers that you could call and negotiate some of the stretches some surveyors make.

I go to bat on behalf of customers a few times per year. It is usually over a misinterpretation of the safety standards. You just need to get to the marine underwriting department. Sometimes they could care less what the standards say sometimes they can actually see the misinterpretation or incorrect finding.

A compass bubble, now that a new one on me....:facepalm:
 

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