Generator is Gone

[OldDan1943]

Plus, you were going to give me your boat anyway once it is perfectly set up. Hurry up will ya?

LOL, you want me to hurry up and die?

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

LOL, you want me to hurry up and die?

Absolutely not...I want you to have the joy of the gift!

Are you talking about an Efoy fuel cell? I haven't looked into these yet. Will do!

 

[OldDan1943]

Absolutely not...I want you to have the joy of the gift!

Are you talking about an Efoy fuel cell? I haven't looked into these yet. Will do!

BINGO!!! That's it. Thanks.

Per gifting my boat to you, if you hold your breath while waiting for me to die, I will go to your funeral first. LOL

 

[timb]

fyi. my 2000i Honda companion will run my 12000 but ac unit .or water heater .plus the 50 amp battery charger (have to turn off eco mode to start). but hooking two together make them better on fuel and quieter.so I borrow another one when I know I am going to need it.

 

[caltexflanc]

By the time you invest in a good inverter, lots of amp hours worth of batteries, solar panels and charging system, electrical wiring and panels, a high output alternator and regulator, switch out cooking appliances if or as needed, you will have spent as much or more than simply dropping a good new generator in place, such as a Phasor, and introduced a bunch of complication while you are at it. You can always upgrade your current inverter and batteries to handle lighter duty loads in silence.

A lot depends on how you are going to use the boat, such as, are you going to anchor out or be on a mooring for days at time, while living on board ? If so, do you want to have to run your main engine to produce hot water? What are your heating and cooling requirements? Or are we adding hydronic heat to the equation? And so on and so on.

While you are contemplating all this, as always, I highly recommend you read Calder's "Boat Owner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual" ,the first three chapters of which discuss all this in detail, and specifically an inverter centric boat if that's really your objective.

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

BINGO!!! That's it. Thanks.

Per gifting my boat to you, if you hold your breath while waiting for me to die, I will go to your funeral first. LOL

Somehow, I don't think I would be the beneficiary anyway. I can hear your heirs... "Who is this guy in Seattle now?"

I used to be in the business (retired CPA) and I would always finish every estate planning consult with my favorite advice: Don't die.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

I am in the same exact position so I will be following. Right now I am thinking about adding a Victron 3000 120 12. A new 400ah house bank and the MFD interface. Still deciding on LA or AGM or Lifepo. I may buy a Honda 2000 for emergency charging or A/C. It the Admiral orders AC it’s an emergency! Can you Tru a 12000btu AC off a Honda?

R.U.T. to start a 10k BTU A/C is 2000 watts. For a 13.5k BTU A/C it's 2750 watts.

 

[mvweebles]

By the time you invest in a good inverter, lots of amp hours worth of batteries, solar panels and charging system, electrical wiring and panels, a high output alternator and regulator, switch out cooking appliances if or as needed, you will have spent as much or more than simply dropping a good new generator in place, such as a Phasor, and introduced a bunch of complication while you are at it. .

Adding solar is pretty cheap. Panels are under $250/ea. A higher quality MPPT controller is around $200. Blue Sea circuit breaker is $45. Add in some 10-AWG wire and you're right at $1000. And you've essentially added a 40-amp battery charger running for 4-hours per day. You can search this forum for hours and not find a thread titled "My Solar panels won't start" or "My solar system is too noisy."

Generator-boats still have decent battery banks, and still have large inverter chargers if for no other reason than to pump-in amps from the charger during generator run-time. Not a huge difference there unless going to Lithium. And even then there's a biz case to be made where cost of lithium is competitive.

I do agree that adding a hi-output alternator adds cost - between $1000 and $2000. But over the course of 5-years, if you avoid generator maintenance, there's an argument the Balmar is still cheap.

In the end, my best thinking from what I know is for the OP to add solar and see how it goes. I've heard of people ripping-out their generators for a variety of reasons. I've never heard of anyone ripping-out their solar system.

Peter

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Adding solar is pretty cheap. Panels are under $250/ea. A higher quality MPPT controller is around $200. Blue Sea circuit breaker is $45. Add in some 10-AWG wire and you're right at $1000. And you've essentially added a 40-amp battery charger running for 4-hours per day. You can search this forum for hours and not find a thread titled "My Solar panels won't start" or "My solar system is too noisy."

Generator-boats still have decent battery banks, and still have large inverter chargers if for no other reason than to pump-in amps from the charger during generator run-time. Not a huge difference there unless going to Lithium. And even then there's a biz case to be made where cost of lithium is competitive.

I do agree that adding a hi-output alternator adds cost - between $1000 and $2000. But over the course of 5-years, if you avoid generator maintenance, there's an argument the Balmar is still cheap.

In the end, my best thinking from what I know is for the OP to add solar and see how it goes. I've heard of people ripping-out their generators for a variety of reasons. I've never heard of anyone ripping-out their solar system.

Peter

This seems like a very reasonable way to "step into this" because I know I want solar, and I know I am going to need diesel heat. I know I am going to need a good battery bank, whatever the material. If I could sneak by without the propane... would be nice. So this ends up looking like this: A good induction cooktop, maybe a nice grill on the back rail and some wee propane tanks in the lazaret for the grill. One of those fancy toaster ovens that you essentially can't run off batteries. Can you run the toaster oven and or the AC while underway or is that generator / shore power only? I think I could swing 300W-400W solar on a Nordic-32. There is room for more batteries than I can afford. The heat will be $$$ I am thinking $7K for the heat, 3K for solar, cooktop and a some battery upgrades. Upgrade the alternator when the current one goes bust / sometime later. But would it work?

Can't make cookies in the fancy oven at anchor, but we MIGHT survive / learn how to grill cookies. https://www.bakepedia.com/grilled-chocolate-chip-cookies/

 

[Shrew]

I used a Honda 2K for almost 13 years. It'll run a 5K BTU AC. You'd need an EZStart for anything larger. You can do everthing, just not all at once. We'd start the generator and run the water heater, then the batteries. We could charge phones and tablets while either is running. We just couldn't run the water heater and battery charger at the same time unless the batteries were at full charge (or close to it).

We also couldn't run water heater or battery charger with the AC running (Again unless the batteries were at full charge).

 

[mvweebles]

This seems like a very reasonable way to "step into this" because I know I want solar, and I know I am going to need diesel heat. I know I am going to need a good battery bank, whatever the material. If I could sneak by without the propane... would be nice. So this ends up looking like this: A good induction cooktop, maybe a nice grill on the back rail and some wee propane tanks in the lazaret for the grill. One of those fancy toaster ovens that you essentially can't run off batteries. Can you run the toaster oven and or the AC while underway or is that generator / shore power only? I think I could swing 300W-400W solar on a Nordic-32. There is room for more batteries than I can afford. The heat will be $$$ I am thinking $7K for the heat, 3K for solar, cooktop and a some battery upgrades. Upgrade the alternator when the current one goes bust / sometime later. But would it work?

Can't make cookies in the fancy oven at anchor, but we MIGHT survive / learn how to grill cookies. https://www.bakepedia.com/grilled-chocolate-chip-cookies/

I too wonder about running AC underway off hi-output alternator/inverter. A single AC (with E start) plus water pump should draw in the range of 70-80 amps @12vdc. Now, the boat systems underway are also drawing quite a bit - even a small boat like your NT32 or my W36 will need 20-30 amps for MFDs, A/P, VHF, and refrigeration. So you need to be able to generate over 100 amps @ 12vdc sustained. And get rid of hear off alternator. It's definitely doable but as another post said, it is a definite step into complexity. Not just the alternator (which can require some special installation costs in addition to the already expensive alternator), but you would likely want to enhance meters and gauges to monitor electrics. Ask me in a year when my refit is done. I plan to test AC running off a pair of Balmars (220a total) through a 3300 Magnum hybrid inverter

Im surprised at your $7k estimate for heating. The duct work is small and not difficult to run. Ive seen many good reports on Chinese knock-off heaters that are a few hundred bucks vs several thousand for an Espar.

 

[Porgy]

Am I missing something when I say, fuel cells can replace a generator for recharging batteries?

This might have been discussed in some older threads but I was curious since you keep bringing it up. Seems to me it might be a viable option for small boats with small loads who don’t want the expense of installing a generator and where solar doesn’t work for them. It looks like energy density and efficiency are good.

However, I don’t think most trawler owners want to go find and buy the special 2.6 gallon jug of methanol (which i gather Efoy uses in lieu of actual Hindenburg Hydrogen) for $60+ every 9-30 days. One FAQ example I saw was if you need to recharge 100 amps to your batteries every 24 hours, a jug (or what Efoy calls a cartridge) will last 9 days.

As a backup to solar might be useful but for some reason Efoy says “maybe.” I didn’t get much past buying a 2.6 gallon jug every month or less.

 

[Iggy]

I have been reading and trying to follow this tread.

I like the idea of the fuel cell if my genset went south. But its all a matter of usage. There 140 model puts out 140 amps in 24 hours. I just love how they show there numbers, but thats only 5.5ah. Your not going to run your reverse cycle AC/heat for very long. Plus the loss that inverters have.

For me, with a solar system it maybe worth it? My wife is still working so we take day and weekend trips mostly. Then we take one trip a year for 2 weeks. This would be the time that we would really use the genset. The cost of keeping it running for those two weeks is on the high side. More than $60 for a fuel cell.

Now I did ask Efoy if you can run 2 fuel cells in together. I never received a response. If it wasn't for the A.C., I now that the fuel cell would work for me. But its not uncommon in N.E. to have 85 to 95 degree days in a row.

 

[ranger58sb]

If that turns out to be insufficient, then reconsider that portable genset idea... focused on powering the new inverter/charger for a while, and heating water. Or maybe a solar solution for recharging might present itself in the meantime...

I forgot, earlier: And convert that portable genset to run on propane.

-Chris

 

[sunchaser]

There is no doubt that a multitude of high priced batteries, solar panels, combiners, splitters, high output alternators etc will provide sufficient power for many electrical needs. But cost savings Vs a genset is not necessarily guaranteed. Solid reasoning for each situation is required. I do get the hobbyist appeal, falling prey to it often.

The total costs for fuel and maintenance for our 12.5 KW genset for the past 15 years are $1,600. Genset costs pale in comparison to maintaining our vessel's cap-rail. When cruising we run our washer and dryer 3 times per week, reverse cycle heat or AC frequently and have an all electric galley.

So get rid of our genset? Never in our case. Look at newer battery types? Always but with an eye on the bottom line.

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

I too wonder about running AC underway off hi-output alternator/inverter. A single AC (with E start) plus water pump should draw in the range of 70-80 amps @12vdc. Now, the boat systems underway are also drawing quite a bit - even a small boat like your NT32 or my W36 will need 20-30 amps for MFDs, A/P, VHF, and refrigeration. So you need to be able to generate over 100 amps @ 12vdc sustained. And get rid of hear off alternator. It's definitely doable but as another post said, it is a definite step into complexity. Not just the alternator (which can require some special installation costs in addition to the already expensive alternator), but you would likely want to enhance meters and gauges to monitor electrics. Ask me in a year when my refit is done. I plan to test AC running off a pair of Balmars (220a total) through a 3300 Magnum hybrid inverter

Im surprised at your $7k estimate for heating. The duct work is small and not difficult to run. Ive seen many good reports on Chinese knock-off heaters that are a few hundred bucks vs several thousand for an Espar.

Carefully read your post on AC underway... put it through the practicality translator. Here is the translated version: Nope! What the heck am I going to do with two AC units that only run on shore power? In Seattle, A/C = open window 51 weeks a year. We need heat 9 months out of the year if we want to have a happy wife/life.

Regarding the heating: Sure Marine in Seattle is one of the acknowledged experts in this area. They post up a system that looks a lot like what I think I want. It is about $5K with tax and tip. About $2.5 for the heater and another $2.5 for the bits and bobs, some of which are vital. I figure another $2K because every marine job just goes that way for me. Either professional installation, inspecting/fixing what I installed, or over engineering the crap out of the installation. It is kind of my M.O. with combustion and CO elements on a boat. My friends call me captain careful... So no chinese knock off heaters for me either. You will see me huddled in the corner encased in a down sleeping bag until I can afford the good stuff.

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

There is no doubt that a multitude of high priced batteries, solar panels, combiners, splitters, high output alternators etc will provide sufficient power for many electrical needs. But cost savings Vs a genset is not necessarily guaranteed. Solid reasoning for each situation is required. I do get the hobbyist appeal, falling prey to it often.

The total costs for fuel and maintenance for our 12.5 KW genset for the past 15 years are $1,600. Genset costs pale in comparison to maintaining our vessel's cap-rail. When cruising we run our washer and dryer 3 times per week, reverse cycle heat or AC frequently and have an all electric galley.

So get rid of our genset? Never in our case. Look at newer battery types? Always but with an eye on the bottom line.

Sure - all about the use case in the end. Cruising grounds and habits will drive the right choice. Most of us on smaller boats in the upper left corner use propane for cooking (readily available everywhere), diesel for heating, No A/C. I think I mentioned above, on our sailboat (Now sold it looks like) we liked to stay on the hook until we smell bad. Then we motor to a new anchorage (no wind, thus the sold sailboat) heating up water and showering while underway.

I have my eye on particular "east coast boat" with an electric galley and reverse cycle heat A/C with a blown Genset. Just exploring the options and contemplating the choices along with $$ considerations as I negotiate on the purchase.

I am pretty well convinced that I want hydronic heat (Happy wife/happy life) and on demand hot water. It would be super luxurious compared to our past set up. I am contemplating cooking on induction/battery/solar vs also adding a propane set up. Also contemplating what to do with those A/C units! Of course I could go the other way: replace the genset and be done. Similar install cost I think. Another engine to maintain (No big deal or total PIA depending on who is weighing in.) Noise (Neighbors will kill you or can't hear it at all depending on who is weighing in.). Trying to get a crash course on 12 volt life! I appreciate all the people commenting with their own experiences.

 

[mvweebles]

Carefully read your post on AC underway... put it through the practicality translator. Here is the translated version: Nope! What the heck am I going to do with two AC units that only run on shore power? In Seattle, A/C = open window 51 weeks a year. We need heat 9 months out of the year if we want to have a happy wife/life....

Umm.....I believe you were the one who asked about AC underway.

Can you run the toaster oven and or the AC while underway or is that generator / shore power only?​

Running a single AC off a hi-output alternator and inverter is indeed practical for someone who has modest cooling requirements whilst underway. Really depends on their location, boat, and desire for climate control.

Personally, I don't understand why people live in places that need heat, let alone 9-months per year. Here in Florida, a few days of heat per year is needed, and AC is rarely needed between mid-Oct through mid-May or so. But hey, I moved from San Francisco partially because it was too cold.....

Peter
(St Pete FL)

 

[rslifkin]

I have my eye on particular "east coast boat" with an electric galley and reverse cycle heat A/C with a blown Genset. Just exploring the options and contemplating the choices along with $$ considerations as I negotiate on the purchase.

I am pretty well convinced that I want hydronic heat (Happy wife/happy life) and on demand hot water. It would be super luxurious compared to our past set up. I am contemplating cooking on induction/battery/solar vs also adding a propane set up. Also contemplating what to do with those A/C units! Of course I could go the other way: replace the genset and be done. Similar install cost I think. Another engine to maintain (No big deal or total PIA depending on who is weighing in.) Noise (Neighbors will kill you or can't hear it at all depending on who is weighing in.). Trying to get a crash course on 12 volt life! I appreciate all the people commenting with their own experiences.

Hydronic heat is the right answer if you need heat away from the dock. But when at a dock, might as well use the reverse cycle on the A/Cs for heat (particularly if you don't have metered power) and save the fuel / wear on the hydronic system.



Having solar is useful even with a working genset. If you have enough solar / battery to handle some cooking, even better. Then you just run the genset when you need to power a big load (like significant cooking) or to make up some battery charge on a cloudy day. And the hot water heats up while you're doing that stuff. With my 12 gallon, well insulated water heater, if I let it heat up before showers in the evening, I've got at least warm enough water for washing dishes and such through the next day. So I generally plan a generator run once a day (usually 45 minutes to an hour) for dinner and hot water when we're away from shore power.

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Umm.....I believe you were the one who asked about AC underway.

Can you run the toaster oven and or the AC while underway or is that generator / shore power only?​

Running a single AC off a hi-output alternator and inverter is indeed practical for someone who has modest cooling requirements whilst underway. Really depends on their location, boat, and desire for climate control.

Personally, I don't understand why people live in places that need heat, let alone 9-months per year. Here in Florida, a few days of heat per year is needed, and AC is rarely needed between mid-Oct through mid-May or so. But hey, I moved from San Francisco partially because it was too cold.....

Peter
(St Pete FL)

Ha! I did indeed ask...No offense intended. You didn't see me nodding, agreeing, tilting my head and then saying, nope... Not really practical for around here. Simple answer about why we live here. We are crazy! And the boating is spectacular.

 

[mvweebles]

Ha! I did indeed ask...No offense intended. You didn't see me nodding, agreeing, tilting my head and then saying, nope... Not really practical for around here. Simple answer about why we live here. We are crazy! And the boating is spectacular.

I've thought about coming up to cruise one summer. From what I hear, it's a spectacular cruising area - one of the finest in the world. I had thought about bringing my boat up there for a summer before heading to Florida, but not too be. Perhaps its a good thing it's tucked in the corner of the continent or it would be over-run.

I have been surprised at the proliferation of Chinese heaters. For years, Espar was the Gold Standard, and Sure Marine is likewise the top dealer.

Peter

 

[sunchaser]

Greg
Are you 100% sure the genset is not repairable?

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Greg
Are you 100% sure the genset is not repairable?

Yep - it is gone.

Here is the verbiage on the listing:recently had her 5.5kw Northern Lights generator removed and is wired/plumbed for a replacement. A new 6.5kw replacement is quoted at $15,000 installed.

Price is 15K lower.

So, contemplating replacement vs... alternatives.

 

[OldDan1943]

Yep - it is gone.

Here is the verbiage on the listing:recently had her 5.5kw Northern Lights generator removed and is wired/plumbed for a replacement. A new 6.5kw replacement is quoted at $15,000 installed.

Price is 15K lower.

So, contemplating replacement vs... alternatives.

Was a 5.5KW on the boat before?

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Was a 5.5KW on the boat before?

I think so... so, of course, all ready to drop in...

 

[rslifkin]

Price around a few of the generator brands (Northern Lights, Phasor, etc.). Depending on how much of the install you can DIY (beyond physically putting it in place) you can likely put in something in the 5 - 7 kw range for less than $15k.

 

[Moonfish]

A friend of mine has an Island Gypsy 32 sedan, which he uses similarly to the OP. Last summer he installed an Efoy system and he absolutely loves it. Of course, no need for AC here in the PNW, but he says it is perfect for their boat and needs.

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

A friend of mine has an Island Gypsy 32 sedan, which he uses similarly to the OP. Last summer he installed an Efoy system and he absolutely loves it. Of course, no need for AC here in the PNW, but he says it is perfect for their boat and needs.

Just trying to wrap my head around these vs the solar option. I can't square up the price, but I have a feeling that a 140 amp / day Efoy = 140 amps / day vs a 400 V solar array which will vary depending on sunlight etc. but around the same AH in these parts. So, apples and oranges methinks. Both make good juice!

 

[mvweebles]

Price around a few of the generator brands (Northern Lights, Phasor, etc.). Depending on how much of the install you can DIY (beyond physically putting it in place) you can likely put in something in the 5 - 7 kw range for less than $15k.

With an existing generator, install is straight forward grunt work. New NL is around $10k. Other brands equivalent to OPs blown unit are likely a bit less.

https://www.seatechmarineproducts.com/northern-lights-6kw-diesel-marine-generator.html

 

[Jeff F]

I have a generator but dislike using it, and have set out to make my life generator free on my new old boat.

I'll put in a big plug for solar. I covered my pilot house roof with a 700w array. About US$1,800 materials cost with Victron MPPT controller.

Heat/hot water: I slurged on a Hurricane Chinook. Five zones, hot water on demand, and engine heat exchanger. 12v power consumption is not prohibitive, about 8 amps for the boiler and 5a for the circulation and fans. This unit has two 1500w electric heating elements as well. Lots of flexibility. Total materials about US$8k.

The Balmar XT 185a alternator was a drop in replacement for me. About $US1,400 for the kit and some heavier cable. The OEM unit is now a spare.

I don't cook much aboard. It's mostly just me. My 2500w inverter runs the coffee maker, microwave, toaster oven, and electric range. Not all together, but it's a limitation I live with. I use them underway without hesitation, and sparingly when on battery power.

The gap in my capabilities, apart from a/c, is living at anchor. The solar power covers refrigeration and my modest house needs like lighting and electronic toys, but doesn't leave much energy for cooking. My 660 ah house bank supports a couple of hours of running a 1500w appliance before needing to be charged, so a 36 hour stop followed by a day of cruising is feasible, as is leaving the boat at anchor for longer periods without electric cooking.

I'd like to be able to run a/c in the pilot house when underway, and am working towards that goal. I think it's completely possible on 12v through an inverter. But that's a project for another season.