where to start -- engine not getting fuel

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Kuncicky

Veteran Member
Joined
May 7, 2021
Messages
88
Vessel Name
Betty L
Vessel Make
1973 Gulfstar
The port engine turns over but nary a sign of wanting to crank. I'm pretty sure it is not getting fuel, although not certain. The question is where to start troubleshooting. It is an old Perkins 4-236 (1973 vintage) and ran fine a few months ago, but has not run since. But now it will not start. I'm not sure where to begin. So any suggestions from those more knowledgeable than I am about diesel engines would be welcome (I would suspect that is 99.999% of the members of the Trawler Forum).


Thanks,
Bill
 
Agree no fuel. Have you tried manual fuel bleed? Have you changed anything since it used to run like change fuel filters? Checked the fuel tank valve lineup?
Checked the stop solenoid fully retracted? ( energize to stop).
 
Fuel in the tank? (You wouldn't be the first. Lol)
Valves on?
Filter blocked?
Fuel coming out of the bleed after the lift pump?
Stop cable/solenoid fully on?
High pressure fuel (no air) being sent to the injectors?

Any location specific problems - freezing temps, glow plugs, something dropped into the tank?

Start with the basics (even if the stbd engine is ok) and go from there.

Good luck
 
Fuel in the tank? (You wouldn't be the first. Lol)
Valves on?
Filter blocked?
Fuel coming out of the bleed after the lift pump?
Stop cable/solenoid fully on?
High pressure fuel (no air) being sent to the injectors?

Any location specific problems - freezing temps, glow plugs, something dropped into the tank?

Start with the basics (even if the stbd engine is ok) and go from there.

Good luck

This is good advice. If you are sure that the tank is full and the valves are on. I would then crack an injector line to see if fuel or air squirts out. If air then leave it open until fuel comes out, then close it and go to the next injector, by then the engine will have started.
 
This is good advice. If you are sure that the tank is full and the valves are on. I would then crack an injector line to see if fuel or air squirts out. If air then leave it open until fuel comes out, then close it and go to the next injector, by then the engine will have started.


Well, that is part of my problem. I'm really a newbie, and not sure of all the terms. I know that a line runs from the fuel tank to the RACOR filter, and then a line from the filter to a part of the engine which has a manual pump on it (small lever which moves up and down). My understanding was that if I use the manual lever to pump until it won't pump more then I have fuel going to the cylinders. But I can pump with the little lever until I am blue in the face and it doesn't meet resistance.


So then the question is how to work backwards from that point?


Sorry to be so ignorant.



Bill
 
Can you remove the line that delivers fuel to the fuel pump? Any fuel flowing out of that? If not, go back to the fuel filter. Is it a dual filter set up where you select which filter is delivering the fuel? It is possible to turn that selector to the off position. Is it turned off? Can you see fuel in the filter?

I would think that maybe the next thing in line as we work our way back to the tank would be a fuel manifold where you can select which tank the fuel is coming from and which tank receives the return fuel from the engine. Are the valves turned on so fuel can be sent to the fuel filter. So now we have worked our way back to the fuel tank. Any shutoff valves at the tank?

If all seems ok, get a gallon of diesel and run a piece of hose from your fuel pump on the engine into the fuel can. Now you have bypassed all those other parts. You will need to bleed the injectors like others have said.
 
Russell rethink this.
Can you remove the line that delivers fuel to the fuel pump?
Not all will siphon fuel if at same elevation as fuel in tank. May only dribble out, but not flow. May or may not work as intended.
 
I have never bleed a Perkins but on Lehmans when you use the hand priming pump on the fuel lift pump you have to crack the bleed screw on the secondaries to let the air out of the filter. I didn’t read that the OP opened the bleed screw. Is that needed on a Perkins?
 
.. a line from the filter to a part of the engine which has a manual pump on it (small lever which moves up and down). My understanding was that if I use the manual lever to pump until it won't pump more then I have fuel going to the cylinders. But I can pump with the little lever until I am blue in the face and it doesn't meet resistance...Bill
No promises, but if you hit the starter to slightly rotate the engine, you may get resistance, and pumping of fuel.
 
Also check the cables from your battery to your starter motor. I had similar problem and it was a corroded cable and loose crimp on cable connector. Solved by replacing both cable and connectors.
 
All good advice. Two other considerations:

There should be a fuel return line from the injector pump back to the tank. It may have a valve, it should be open and return fuel to the same tank feeding the engine. Not sure if a blocked return would prevent starting but it should be open to cool the injection system.

If you have a wet exhaust system excessive cranking without a start can back water into the engine exhaust manifold causing significant damage. This can be avoided by draining the water lift muffler or by closing the raw water intake valve (if the engine starts this must be opened quickly or risk overheating the engine).

If you are unfamiliar with diesel engines it is time well spent to read about them. There are a few books which go into detail. Having someone who knows diesels walk you through your engine systems is also very helpful.

Good luck with your troubleshooting. Let us know what works.
 
Lots of good advice here, and I deeply appreciate you all taking the time and trouble to assist me. I do have one more specific question, but think that since it is so specific that it would be better to start a new thread, so that is what I am going to do. It has to do with the exact procedure for bleeding air from the fuel line.


Bill
 
The port engine turns over but nary a sign of wanting to crank. I'm pretty sure it is not getting fuel, although not certain. The question is where to start troubleshooting. It is an old Perkins 4-236 (1973 vintage) and ran fine a few months ago, but has not run since. But now it will not start. I'm not sure where to begin. So any suggestions from those more knowledgeable than I am about diesel engines would be welcome (I would suspect that is 99.999% of the members of the Trawler Forum).


Thanks,
Bill

Not to nitpick, terms are important to learn, especially when seeking help in writing. Cranking and turning over are the same thing. I think the term you were looking for is firing. Turns over but won't fire. Cranking/Turning over is the job of the starter motor. Firing and then running is the job of the diesel engine.

Your description certainly sounds like a loss of prime and air in the system. Diesels only need fuel and heat to run. Heat comes from compression. Fast compression makes more intense heat than slow compression, so you need a starter motor to turn it quickly and make heat when it compresses the air.

Bleeding with the manual pump can be challenging, they move so little fuel that you can end up in a situation where you are pumping against an air bubble that moves back and forth with your pumping action, while you make zero progress in actually getting that air out. You need to give the air someplace to go, and that's either a fitting on a filter/fuel line, or an injector, or a bleed screw on the injection pump. Usually you follow them in a sequence as you move air through the system out each portion, tightening them down as you go. The video linked previously shows you the sequence to do them in.

Sometimes it can be very frustrating, and take quite a while to get all the air out. I worked with one Lehman that took hours to get it completely bled for no apparent reason, once it was bled it kept it's prime and had no issues.

If no fittings or filters were loosened or changed and you have air in the system, it seems likely you have a leak somewhere that let air in, and this problem may recur even after you get it bled and working.
 
I would first make sure a lack of fuel is the problem.

Since the engine has not run and is room temperature, a simple 1 second squirt of starting fluid should get one Varrooom .

This lets you know the engine is OK and lack of fuel IS the problem.

First place to look is at whatever is used to shut down the engine is not still in the shutdown mode.
 
As mentioned previously:

First drain the accumulated water from the water lift muffler before any more cranking!
(That can cause bigger problems than lack of fuel.)

Now 'crack' (loosen slightly) a fuel line atop an injector.
Have a friend turn the key while you watch for fuel. when it appears, tighten the nut.

Repeat on the other injectors until successful.
N.B: The 4-236 has a fuel filter at the injector pump that requires occasional service.

Good luck.
 
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You have to bleed the injector pump, it's fairly easy but it has to be done in order, bleed the primary filter at the bleed valve on top until there's no sign of air, then bleed the injector pump at the bleed valve and return fitting. Now you have to bleed three or four injector lines. That's it.
 
You can pump the lift pump lever until your thumb falls off and you will not prime the engine until you release the trapped air.

Get fuel to and through the Racor.

Then find and losen the closest bleed screw beyond the lift pump. It may be secondary, engine mounted filters or it may be the injection pump. When you get a good flow losen a line at the injector and pump some more until you get fuel with no bubbles.

If you are not feeling any resistance on the lift pump lever hit the start button and rotate the engine a few degrees. It will get the lever off the high cam and should start pumping.

If your secondary filters are in tandem do the low(first) one first , then the higher(second) one. Some people will fill the secondary filters with a tiny funnel or a turkey baster.

pete
 
There are two pumps in the systems, a "lift pump", also known as a "low pressure" pump, and an "injector pump", also known as a high pressure pump.

The lift pump is the one with the lever on it. The purpose of the lift pump is to pull fuel from your fuel tank through the Racors (known as primary fuel filters) and then push it through the 2ndary fuel filter (the one on the engine) and to the injector pump.

The injector pump's job is to delivery a pressurized feed of fuel to each cylinder's fuel injector, such that the injector has enough pressure to get a good spray into the cylinder. It actually delivers more fuel than is needed. The remaining fuel comes back out of the injector and returns to the tank.

You've found the lifter pump. The injector pump is the one that has the four (4) lines coming out of it and running to each injector. If you look at each injector, you'll see it has a larger line going to it, and a smaller line connecting them all together. The common one is the return.

To start out with, make sure there is no air in the Racor. You likely will need to loosen the top to check. Fill it as close to full as needed. If your fuel level is above the Racor and there is no check valve, simply loosening the top may let the air out and let it fill. In any case, get it as full as you can, because the more full it is, the less air you need to bleed. Get ready with absorbent rags to clean up any mess.

Next go to your fuel filter. On top, there is most likely what is called a "banjo bolt". It looks like a bolt from the top, but inside there is a hole drilled through it that fuel can pass through. You'll note that the fitting around it has a fuel line coming off. Loosen this screw, cover it with absorbent rags, and operate the fuel lifter pump until fuel comes out or the handle gets firm when pumping. The tighten up that bolt. Some engines might have a version that doesn't have the banjo bolt at the top and has an actual bleed screw, but I don't remember those details and I think that is a rare version of the pump.

Next move on to the injector pump. There were a few different injector pumps used in those engines. One was self-bleeding, but I think it was only used in tractors. For the ones installed in boats, there was a "mechanically governed" pump and a "hydraulically governed pump". The hydraulic version is a bit more responsive, but some say it is also more finicky. I think most in engines are hydraulic and most in generators are mechanical. But, don't hold me that. It is an impression based upon a very small sample.

In any case, if you have the hydraulic pump ("DPA style"), you'll see a small panel cover, likely secured by a wire. Directly above that you'll see a screw with a spring around it. That is the idle adjustment. And, directly above that, you'll find a small hex head screw (/not/ a cap screw, something you can put a small wrench on). That is one of the two bleed screws on the pump. If you find the throttle arm, the lever that is controlled by your throttle cable, and find the screw it pivots on, directly above that you'll find another hex head screw, like the first one. It is the second of the bleed screws on the pump.

If you've got a mechanically governed pump ("DPS style"), there is only one bleed screw. If you find the throttle lever, the bleed screw is a hex-head screw as described above -- but below the end of the throttle arm (not the pivot point, but just below and a little bit in from the distal end).

To bleed the pump, loosen the bleed screw(s) (I can usually get away with just loosening the lower one on the pumps with two, but that isn't the recommended practice) until it is good and loose, but not all the way out, cover all around, under, and over that screw with absorbent cloth, and start pumping with that lifter pump handle. Keep pumping until you get a firm feel on the lever when pumping, fuel gushing out of the bleed screw -- without foam or bubbles or other signs of air. Then tighten the screw(s) back up.

If the pumping is easy and nothing is happening, you are moving air. Keep going. It can take a couple hundred pumps or more sometimes. This is why many peel install electrical bleed pumps.

At that point, you can probably get the engine to bleed itself with just a little patience. But, that isn't the recommended practice. The recommended practice is to also bleed the injectors. To do this, follow the fuel lines from the injector pump to the injectors. Pick one or two. Loosen the but around the fuel line at the injectors and cover the areas with absorbent rags. Pumping with the lifter pump won't help you here. You've more-or-less got to bump the starter until the fuel coming out is gushing out, and free of bubbles and foam. Then, tighten up. I can usually get the engine to start without doing this step, but when I do, I bleed the highest injector and maybe some other. Try not to start the engine while bleeding. But, if it starts, that is okay. Just tighten up the injectors. Air in the return lines will bleed itself.

Do heed the advice given earlier by others: Cranking an engine that doesn't start can pump water into it. Since water doesn't compress like air, it can bend and break things if the engine gets turned over in that state. If you have to turn the engine over a lot, keep the seacock closed until it is running and then quickly open it. If you think you might have done that, get getting it out. You'll end up needing to check in the exhaust, and possibly removing the injectors and turning the engine over by hand, etc. How likely this is to occur totally depends upon the details of how the engine is installed.

I hope this helps.

-Greg
 
There are two pumps in the systems, a "lift pump", also known as a "low pressure" pump, and an "injector pump", also known as a high pressure pump.
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I hope this helps.

-Greg


That excellent tutorial helps a heck of a lot! Thanks. I have done a copy and paste on it, in fact, to save it for reference. Along with some others in this thread.



I did get the engine started, with the help of a friend who came down and was willing to get dirty in exchange for me buying lunch for him and his girlfriend. He showed me how to change the filter in the racor, tightened a loose wire on the starter (of the other engine!) and then had me turn the engine over. After a bit we had a few "blips" which sounded like some cylinders firing but not others, and then the engine caught and ran OK.


So thanks to everyone for all the helpful suggestions.


Bill
 
Also check the cables from your battery to your starter motor. I had similar problem and it was a corroded cable and loose crimp on cable connector. Solved by replacing both cable and connectors.


Good point. The engine turns over slowly, as if the battery is weak. But the other engine turns over fast, as it is supposed to. Since they both are fed from the same battery bank, I would say that there is a good possibility of either a corroded cable, a bad connection, or both, on that port engine. So that is on the list to check next time I go down. Thanks.


Bill
 
Could be lacking of air. Check for spider mites that may have clogged air intake ports.
 
Greg, doncha love a diesel? Air, fuel, spin the motor fast enough to start it.
IMO, the diesel is far easier to trouble shoot than a gas motor, even if you have to bleed the system.
No spark plugs, point, plugs etc to worry about.
Yea yea, most of that has been replaced with electronic ignition but my old fashion, feeble mind, I still like a diesel. It is less prone to explode.
 
Could be lacking of air. Check for spider mites that may have clogged air intake ports.


Never thought about the air intake, but certainly worth checking! Thanks.


Bill
 
Greg, doncha love a diesel? Air, fuel, spin the motor fast enough to start it.
IMO, the diesel is far easier to trouble shoot than a gas motor, even if you have to bleed the system.
No spark plugs, point, plugs etc to worry about.
Yea yea, most of that has been replaced with electronic ignition but my old fashion, feeble mind, I still like a diesel. It is less prone to explode.

I'm with you. I like diesel. Old school, mechanical diesel.:)
 
The offshore belt and suspenders folks might want to investigate lifeboat starting systems.

These bolt on instead of the electric starter are hyd and if needed can be hand pumped back to starting pressure .

These require less knowledge to operate than the older method used on WWII German submarines. Big high pressure air bottles , a hand lever to rotate the engine to the start position , and a valve to shoot air to one cylinder.

There are also spring starters for not too large diesels.

UGH! And some folks complain about needing a second batt for engine start backup!
 
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Now that we're wandering off topic.....

I've run boats with air start, hydraulic start, hand start and electric start. I'll take electric start and batteries anytime. Robust, proven, simple. Multiple start attempts for an engine with issues. To back it up we all have extra batteries. Carry a spare starter in case that goes out. Jumper cables for either jumping the dead start batt or bypassing failed cables.

With air and hydraulic there are too many failure points. Whatcha gonna do if it craps out away from the dock and you don't have a good engine room, spare parts and knowledgeable crew to rebuild it on site? Hand crank is really only suitable for smaller engines than most of us run.
Air start?

The offshore belt and suspenders folks might want to investigate lifeboat starting systems.

These bolt on instead of the electric starter are hyd and if needed can be hand pumped back to starting pressure .

These require less knowledge to operate than the older method used on WWII German submarines. Big high pressure air bottles , a hand lever to rotate the engine to the start position , and a valve to shoot air to one cylinder.

There are also spring starters for not too large diesels.

UGH! And some folks complain about needing a second batt for engine start backup!
 
Now that we're wandering off topic.....

I've run boats with air start, hydraulic start, hand start and electric start. I'll take electric start and batteries anytime. Robust, proven, simple. Multiple start attempts for an engine with issues. To back it up we all have extra batteries. Carry a spare starter in case that goes out. Jumper cables for either jumping the dead start batt or bypassing failed cables.

With air and hydraulic there are too many failure points. Whatcha gonna do if it craps out away from the dock and you don't have a good engine room, spare parts and knowledgeable crew to rebuild it on site? Hand crank is really only suitable for smaller engines than most of us run.

I once had a problem in starting my 6 cilinder Cummins. After doing all the exercises it appeared to be the dead man's switch on the dash board on the fly bridge. It was horizontally mounted and some moisture had penetrate it causing a permanent short circuit. A bit of WD 40 and the problem was solved.
 
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