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Old 01-15-2021, 07:11 PM   #261
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ABYC is NOT code!
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I don't have a "Recommendations" section in my reports. I have a "Comments" section instead. Semantics are important in this regard I believe.

I clearly define in my "Comments" which are code (ABYC, NFPA, TP1332, CFR Title 46) and which are my "opinion".

I believe each of the photographs I've posted can be seen by reasonable people to be dangerous and should be reported in a survey report whether they are technically "legal" or not.
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Old 01-15-2021, 07:15 PM   #262
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As I said in an earlier post, a good surveyor is your friend. A bad one is every boater's nemesis.
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Always enjoyed and learned something from the recommendations section. Especially when divided into do now, should be done at some point and might be a good idea to do. Different surveyors use different language to make those divisions but you get the point. Found that helpful. In the past code violations havenít been mentioned but guess thatís a reflection that I wonít buy (hence sell) a boat thatís unsafe. Iíve never hired a surveyor without looking at a sample report and reviewing independent assessments of his work. Beyond the pro forma of insurance surveys asking for valuation what I want out of a survey is an assessment of the integrity of the vessel and whatís involved to make it as safe, functional, serviceable and long lived as possible. If ABYC gives cues as how to make that possible all to the good. But I donít see any rating system as being the be all and end all to achieve that end. It was to have you and others acknowledge many owners and prospective owners have a similar view. Think the negative feelings expressed toward marine surveyors isnít often justified. Have found them a great source of education and insight if you pick wisely.
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Old 01-15-2021, 07:19 PM   #263
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But some surveyors think it is. That, sir, is an example of what some of us have been trying to impart to you.
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Tinned conductors are not an ABYC requirement.
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Old 01-15-2021, 07:30 PM   #264
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I do a basic survey of the important items on our boat everytime when first aboard. When out for days/weeks... I often do basic survey again - more than once!!

Matter o' fact: My eyes, ears, nose and skin temp are always on the prowl and alert when on any boat!

I'd be honored to have boatpoker survey my boat!
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Old 01-15-2021, 07:41 PM   #265
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Geez, boatpoker, do you ever give it a rest?
Forgot to mention there were no fuses either

Have at it, you win, I'm done
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Old 01-15-2021, 09:05 PM   #266
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ABYC is NOT code!
Precisely! But Boat Poker wields it as one. Surveyors who do so are an industry wide problem.

By the way, Shrew earlier referenced ABYC as a "standard", which is a government term for regulation. It is not a standard/regulation/code. He mentioned lead paint as a safety issue that was identified as a hazard years after its introduction. Yes it was and the safety problem and ban were handled via government code/regulation/standard....not a guideline from a private, for profit, marketer of "safety". One more time ABYC, SAMS/NAMS and manufacturers of safety related products are in the business of marketing safety for profit. They organize "Safety Seminars" at marinas and show up together to sell safety.
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Old 01-15-2021, 09:08 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
Precisely! But Boat Poker wields it as one. Surveyors who do so are an industry wide problem.

By the way, Shrew earlier referenced ABYC as a "standard", which is a government term for regulation. It is not a standard/regulation/code. He mentioned lead paint as a safety issue that was identified as a hazard years after its introduction. Yes it was and the safety problem and ban were handled via government code/regulation/standard....not a guideline from a private, for profit, marketer of "safety". One more time ABYC, SAMS/NAMS and manufacturers of safety related products are in cahoots. Be aware.
Not all standards are government enforced. ABYC can be a set of standards without you being required to follow them.
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Old 01-15-2021, 09:20 PM   #268
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Not all standards are government enforced. ABYC can be a set of standards without you being required to follow them.
ABYC is an industry guideline (for new construction), which is optional, and is enforced by no one. Lumping it in with government regulations in a survey report is done to give it the impression of the weight of law. It's deceptive and misleading.
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Old 01-15-2021, 09:34 PM   #269
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ABYC is an industry guideline (for new construction), which is optional, and is enforced by no one. Lumping it in with government regulations in a survey report is done to give it the impression of the weight of law. It's deceptive and misleading.
You're missing my point. There are plenty of voluntary standards in the world. Not all standards come from a government. Many come from organizations such as ISO. In some cases there's a legal requirement to meet a standard, in other cases it's voluntary.
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Old 01-15-2021, 10:26 PM   #270
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I just went back and read Boat Pokers post. He lumps ABYC in with "Code". It's not. Deceptive and misleading.

The FAA , and I believe the Coast Guard reserve the term "Standards" for use in the context of Code/Regulations. I believe the subject here is what can be enforced versus opinion. ABYC is not a "standard" in that context. It's best practices....for new boat construction. If it becomes code or regulatory the pleasure boating industry will like die from government involvement and oversight.
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Old 01-16-2021, 09:38 AM   #271
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From the Macmillan dictionary:

Definition of standard(s):

COUNTABLE/UNCOUNTABLE a level of quality or achievement, especially one that people generally consider normal or acceptable
standard of: higher standards of service in hospitals
raise/improve/lower standards: What can be done to raise standards in schools?
meet/achieve/conform to/comply with standards: They must supply water that complies with medical health standards.
set (someone) a standard: He sets himself high standards.
Laurence Olivier set the standard for (=was the best example of) acting in the 20th century.
below/not up to standard: The food was not up to standard.
of a high/low standard: She always produces work of a high standard.


I think people are confusing Standards with requirements, laws, and minimum acceptable standards.

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Old 01-16-2021, 09:59 AM   #272
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I just went back and read Boat Pokers post. He lumps ABYC in with "Code". It's not. Deceptive and misleading.
Please show me the post where I did that.

I even posted part of my reports where I clearly define what are voluntary and what are legally required. Here, I'll post it again ...
Attached Thumbnails
STATEMENT.jpg  
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Old 01-16-2021, 11:22 AM   #273
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Why are so many "assaulting" the obvious correct thinking and marine survey integrity of boatpoker?

I shake my head at this. It appears obvious that boatpoker knows as much or more of the details regarding marine surveying than any other surveyor available.
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Old 01-16-2021, 11:34 AM   #274
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Please show me the post where I did that.
Post #249
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Old 01-16-2021, 11:40 AM   #275
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Post #249
"I clearly define in my "Comments" which are code (ABYC, NFPA, TP1332, CFR Title 46) and which are my "opinion".

Ya got me on semantics. I should have said "standards" or "codes and standards"

I was trying to reinforce my attempt to distinguish between the "opinions" expressed in my reports and the various codes and standards.
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Old 01-16-2021, 11:48 AM   #276
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From the Macmillan dictiona


I think people are confusing Standards with requirements, laws, and minimum acceptable standards.

Ted
USCG regulations ARE.....minimum acceptable standards. There are very few for pleasure boats. Boat owners should thank their lucky stars for that and stop rolling over when surveyors try to stick it to them with insurance companies by using unofficial guidelines that are not applicable to their boats.
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Old 01-16-2021, 11:50 AM   #277
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It is NOT an assault, just a profound difference in opinion pretty much stated with thought and civilty. If you have not already, I suggest that you go back and read through the back and forth postings and you will see that it is so. You may even begin to understand some of the arguments being made have validity despite BPs different opinion.

Isn't this the purpose of forums, the exchange of ideas and opinions? If done so with respect and at least a modicum of politeness there is no reason for anyone to become offended. If anyone becomes offended simply because another expresses an opinion apposite to their's, then I have little respect for that person. I'm not saying that is the case here but we often see it. Also, the written word can sometimes be misinterpreted in a way that the writer not all intended.

Lastly, there are a lot of folks here who have a lot of experience. Just because BP is a surveyor does not make him more expert to some others, others who disagree with him. I am not one of those experts but I do have opinions. When I am corrected, I do not take offense. I expect others not to take offense when I correct them about something of which I know to be true.
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Why are so many "assaulting" the obvious correct thinking and marine survey integrity of boatpoker?

I shake my head at this. It appears obvious that boatpoker knows as much or more of the details regarding marine surveying than any other surveyor available.
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Old 01-16-2021, 12:33 PM   #278
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IMO... there is a redundancy of incorrect accusations [repeated over and over] against the validity of boatpoker's decisions, suggestions, recommendations and stated facts.

Anything repeated often enough begins to take on its own life... just ask Trump... he works that fact like a flute of the Pied Piper!
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Old 01-16-2021, 12:57 PM   #279
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ABYC
For $1595 I can take an online course over 9 days and 90 minutes per day. Once I pass for $105 a year I can get access to all these codes that are referenced in surveys.

I get the part that a surveyor should be certified competent by some education and require recertification periodically. We should be able to rely on that.

What pisses me off is when handed a survey stating something is not in compliance I have no way to reassure myself that in fact it is correct.

The TP1332E that boatpoker references can be found here free for the download. ABYC is referenced 32 times more for info as opposed to follow it to the letter. But try to look up an ABYC item without being a member, forget about it, you need the secret handshake.

Earlier I mentioned residential building inspectors. If they stated 'X' is not correct I had the ability to reference the code to verify whether it was opinion or fact.

BP is indeed being picked on after sharing because we have all had surveys we did not agree with. BP is the messenger giving an insight we would only be guessing at. Stop shooting the messenger. Ask why the public cannot get a copy of the reference material of ABYC so often used or misused.
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Old 01-16-2021, 01:00 PM   #280
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"I clearly define in my "Comments" which are code (ABYC, NFPA, TP1332, CFR Title 46) and which are my "opinion".

Ya got me on semantics. I should have said "standards" or "codes and standards"

I was trying to reinforce my attempt to distinguish between the "opinions" expressed in my reports and the various codes and standards.
No, I think we "got you" on how you actually operate in the real world....
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