When a Tesla trawler?

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"the introduction of vehicles that can be powered with 100% renewable energy as the grid converts,"

There is not enough food in the world to burn it all to operate our society.

"a major tipping point could be when solar and the storage of it can be more cost efficient than straight diesel."

After 125 years of battery development , the newest battery systems still seem 100 years from having the dame energy density as diesel.And still have charging and discharging losses.

A new type diesel engine would be a big help.

So far the only first electric attempt that makes economic sense is harbor tugs.

Tugs can shut down the big diesels,,, go to and loiter on station on batteries awaiting the arrival of the next job.

The diesels will do 99% of the work docking ,, BUT as the hourly price of the boat is figured by peak" bollard pull" the ability to parallel the bats and diesel to the shaft would earn money all the time.

Not burning fuel idleing , and not putting hours on the big diesels also helps the bottom line.

Electric power will only make sense when folks make money by adapting the tech.

Forced "development " is another Solindra , very profitable for a few political folks ,loosing multiple millions for tax payers.

I believe gov. development money can be wisely spent only when the development will truly advance science or engineering.

There is no profit in an engine mfg spending R&D bucks developing a very different style engine , even if it is 30% more efficient.

While the customers would LOVE it,,, the requirement to scrap all the existing production facilities and build new ones would not go over with stockholders .

In the USA DARPA performs this function , of attempting to jump rather than crawl R&D.

In the past Honda Motorcycles solved its problem by just building a new factory for 1st world sales and keeping the old factory to build for 3rd world markets.

Evidently you are not aware that many of the major car makers have stopped developing new ICEs or have decided that the next development cycle will be their last. Having driven an electric car for three years, I can tell you that they are no fad and that the difference in driving experience alone is sufficient practicality for them to replace the ICE. Power on demand at zero RPM and no jerky-jerky transmission is a revelation, the ability to “fill the tank” while sleeping is just a side benefit as is the silence when driving.
 
The primary advantage to electric cars these days is to move the source of pollution from population centers to areas less developed.
 
Evidently you are not aware that many of the major car makers have stopped developing new ICEs or have decided that the next development cycle will be their last. Having driven an electric car for three years, I can tell you that they are no fad and that the difference in driving experience alone is sufficient practicality for them to replace the ICE. Power on demand at zero RPM and no jerky-jerky transmission is a revelation, the ability to “fill the tank” while sleeping is just a side benefit as is the silence when driving.

WH
The major car manufactures have not stopped developing new and better ICE power trains. Nothing more than a quick read of Motor Trend or Car and Driver may be warranted.

A serious road trip in an all electric vehicle is not yet possible. The other day I was looking at a new Tesla. A trip from my AZ home to Las Vegas is beyond the range of the S model. And then onto Pendleton the next day, effortlessly cruising at 80 mph in an ICE, again not possible in a Tesla without an overnight stop somewhere to recharge.

For those of us who routinely drive 500+ miles in an easy 8 hour day, all electric is not a consideration. Nor is the rationale. For putting around town hauling a bunch of kids and their hockey or baseball gear is the realm of roomy ICE vehicles.

Hybrids are a much better road trip or soccer mom choice. Dozens to choose from. And currently in use, big time.
 
Nailed it...

The primary advantage to electric cars these days is to move the source of pollution from population centers to areas less developed.


Bingo. Nuff said.
 
WH
The major car manufactures have not stopped developing new and better ICE power trains. Nothing more than a quick read of Motor Trend or Car and Driver may be warranted.

A serious road trip in an all electric vehicle is not yet possible. The other day I was looking at a new Tesla. A trip from my AZ home to Las Vegas is beyond the range of the S model. And then onto Pendleton the next day, effortlessly cruising at 80 mph in an ICE, again not possible in a Tesla without an overnight stop somewhere to recharge.

For those of us who routinely drive 500+ miles in an easy 8 hour day, all electric is not a consideration. Nor is the rationale. For putting around town hauling a bunch of kids and their hockey or baseball gear is the realm of roomy ICE vehicles.

Hybrids are a much better road trip or soccer mom choice. Dozens to choose from. And currently in use, big time.

Google when will petrol cars be phased out and you will find that Toyota, GM and the Germans are all dumping petrol motors by 2040. Diesels are being dropped even sooner due to new sales being banned in at least 9 countries.

Only a tiny percentage of drivers do 500+ mile days and stop and go around town soccer mom trips are where electric vehicles shine. These are very early days for electric cars, the equivalent of the 1920’s for ice vehicles, just wait a couple of years.......
 
Utterly ignored...

It was over 100 years ago that the railroads discovered the most efficient way to use diesel engines.


What was it? Bolt them up to a DC generator and use the electricity to turn DC electric motors which, in turn, provide the motive force to turn the wheels of the locomotive.


Best of all worlds.


We all know that any diesel engine is most efficient AND most reliable when it runs in squarely the 'sweet spot', where HP and torque curves intersect with the demand curve, where exhaust tempertures and combustion chamber temperatures are optimized. Where the intake and exhaust systems can be tuned exactly to the HP/cu-in ratio.


Surprise surprise!!! This is also where diesel engines produce the least soot and pollutants! Surprise surprise!!! The 'demand curve' of a generator back-end is the only load that allows 100% perfectly managed loading of a diesel engine.



Regardless of whether its a diesel-electric locomotive or a trawler, the one technology that is utterly ignored in this debate is diesel-electric.


If I were designing the 'greenest' possible trawler, it NOT have $150,000 worth of chinese lithium batteries. It would have:


1) a relatively small, naturally aspirated, diesel engine spinning happily away in it's sweet spot, turning...

2) an ultra-efficient American-made (i.e Polar Power of CA) DC generator, feeding...

3) an American made electric motor propulsion system (i.e. Electric Yacht in MN), AND...

4) ...just enough chinese-made battery capacity to keep the diesel generator duty-cycle under 90% in the worst case scenarios.


Now...those of you who have been paying attention to electro-motive engineering during the last 100 years will recognize thiis as a natural evolution of the diesel-electric locomotive. You might slap palm to forehead and exclaim "D'oh! of course this is the answer!"



I would invite anyone to do the end-to-end energy chain math, including the impact on diesel engine reliability, and present any other solution that even gets close.


Question: Barring maintenance failures, anybody here ever seen a diesel-powered generator with a naturally aspirated engine fail at less than 10K-20K hours? When run in their 'sweet spot', diesel engines used solely to generate electricity last for a VERY long time...



So...why no 'hype-cycle" for diesel-electric?
 
Because even run in their “sweet spot” the diesel part of your equation is still too dirty to be acceptable in the future.
 
Because even run in their “sweet spot” the diesel part of your equation is still too dirty to be acceptable in the future.


Re: "too dirty to be acceptable in the future."


I'm sorry if you weren't tracking.


We're not talking about some abstract (and probably B.S.) 'future'.


We're talking about what can be done now, today, immediately.


My question is "why is it being ignored".


Too often, the waiting for some perfect technology-of-the-future prevents us from doing the right-and-obvious-thing-today.


"it's not perfect yet" is a lame excuse for complacency.
 
. We're talking about what can be done now, today, .

All manners of hybrid vehicles are out there. Every manufacturer seems to have one or more. Even the exotics such as Porsche, Bentley and Jaguar.

As always, the market place will offer a variety of the vehicles of choice, whether pure ICE, hybrid or all electric. Which is why Mercedes is now launching a pickup, to enter a very large market.
 
The primary advantage to electric cars these days is to move the source of pollution from population centers to areas less developed.


My next car will be electric. Economically, it pencils out for me as my power costs 8 cents/KWH. Environmentally it also pencils out since 97% of my electricity is from renewable sources.

I’m certainly not ready to give up all of my internal combustion cars, but an EV would work great as a second car.
 
It was over 100 years ago that the railroads discovered the most efficient way to use diesel engines.


What was it? Bolt them up to a DC generator and use the electricity to turn DC electric motors which, in turn, provide the motive force to turn the wheels of the locomotive.


Best of all worlds.


We all know that any diesel engine is most efficient AND most reliable when it runs in squarely the 'sweet spot', where HP and torque curves intersect with the demand curve, where exhaust tempertures and combustion chamber temperatures are optimized. Where the intake and exhaust systems can be tuned exactly to the HP/cu-in ratio.


Surprise surprise!!! This is also where diesel engines produce the least soot and pollutants! Surprise surprise!!! The 'demand curve' of a generator back-end is the only load that allows 100% perfectly managed loading of a diesel engine.



Regardless of whether its a diesel-electric locomotive or a trawler, the one technology that is utterly ignored in this debate is diesel-electric.


If I were designing the 'greenest' possible trawler, it NOT have $150,000 worth of chinese lithium batteries. It would have:


1) a relatively small, naturally aspirated, diesel engine spinning happily away in it's sweet spot, turning...

2) an ultra-efficient American-made (i.e Polar Power of CA) DC generator, feeding...

3) an American made electric motor propulsion system (i.e. Electric Yacht in MN), AND...

4) ...just enough chinese-made battery capacity to keep the diesel generator duty-cycle under 90% in the worst case scenarios.


Now...those of you who have been paying attention to electro-motive engineering during the last 100 years will recognize thiis as a natural evolution of the diesel-electric locomotive. You might slap palm to forehead and exclaim "D'oh! of course this is the answer!"



I would invite anyone to do the end-to-end energy chain math, including the impact on diesel engine reliability, and present any other solution that even gets close.


Question: Barring maintenance failures, anybody here ever seen a diesel-powered generator with a naturally aspirated engine fail at less than 10K-20K hours? When run in their 'sweet spot', diesel engines used solely to generate electricity last for a VERY long time...



So...why no 'hype-cycle" for diesel-electric?



Diesel electric boats are available now. Go buy one. They’re about 50% more expensive than a traditional diesel setup. The same as all electric.

The long term plan is to phase out all fossil fuels, starting with electricity generation. Many developed countries are well on their way with this plan. In the state where I live we are up to about 50% solar and wind power. It is doubtful that another large scale fossil fuel power station will ever be built here.
 
"no jerky-jerky transmission is a revelation,

For some strange reason the auto mfg have found that folks like the shift feeling and on new CTV autos , build in bogus shift points.

Guess the public will need to be re-educated into the joys of a 1955 Buick Dynaflow.

My guess is even with vast gov. funding the global warming hoax will be long gone , like the "peak oil" BS from years ago.

The big hassle is when there is gov. funding bad stuff like Ethano, the bad l gets backing from folks that invested in it , and want to be made whole by tax payers.

Ethanol is now considered bad for the environment , a pollutant of the atmosphere and still takes more energy to produce than it returns .

But like the WWI "Wool Board" may live forever.


Using natural gas to create electric will be with us for a long time. Its cheap, a plant can be up to speed in a few min as needed , and many can burn plastic and waste with only a bit more fuel expended , to reap the energy in waste.


Solves 2 problems at once.
 
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Diesel electric boats are available now. Go buy one. They’re about 50% more expensive than a traditional diesel setup. The same as all electric.

The long term plan is to phase out all fossil fuels, starting with electricity generation. Many developed countries are well on their way with this plan. In the state where I live we are up to about 50% solar and wind power. It is doubtful that another large scale fossil fuel power station will ever be built here.

Here we go again:banghead:
 
It was over 100 years ago that the railroads discovered the most efficient way to use diesel engines.


What was it? Bolt them up to a DC generator and use the electricity to turn DC electric motors which, in turn, provide the motive force to turn the wheels of the locomotive.


Diesel electric was/is attractive for locomotives for a number of reasons, but efficiency isn't one of them. They are about the only way to deliver a few thousand HP from zero to maybe a hundred rpm. And dynamic braking (using the motor as a generator with a huge load bank) is about the only way to control speed down a long grade. But those critical features come at the expense of efficiency, not with the benefit of efficiency.


Let's just be clear about one basic thing. A gear drive for any particular load with ALWAYS be more efficiency than a motor/generator/motor. It's basic physics. Power loss in a gear drive is about 3%. Power loss in a modern m/g/m is about 10% for the generator, 10% for the switch gear, and 10% for the motor.


So with a m/g/m you are starting out at a 27% deficit, so the other benefits need to be pretty compelling, or you need some clever way to make up the energy loss. On a locomotive, it's worth it for the transmission and braking characteristics. On a hybrid car, the deficit is reduced because much of the propulsion is via gear, not m/g/m. And the big win is taking the locomotive dynamic braking idea and storing that energy for re-use rather than dumping it as heat as conventional car brakes do.


And this is why a hybrid boat is just a plain silly idea. You incur the losses of a m/g/m, and don't have any regenerative braking to make up for it. The only benefit once again comes back to it's characteristics as a transmission, allowing you, within limits, to more optimally set the engine's operating point for improved bsfc. But that can much more easily and efficiently be accomplished by a two speed transmission - something that actually already exits for marine applications. In short's a losing proposition before you even start the engine.


Oh, people typically cite diesel electric tugs and cruise ships as success examples. However in both cases, it's all about maneuverability and flexibility. A cruise ship that can enter a port and dock itself every day or two is a huge savings over hiring a couple of tugs each time. They accomplish that with pod drives and a multitude of thrusters, all electrically driven for speed control, much like a locomotive. It's about the transmission, baby.


Best of all worlds.


We all know that any diesel engine is most efficient AND most reliable when it runs in squarely the 'sweet spot', where HP and torque curves intersect with the demand curve, where exhaust tempertures and combustion chamber temperatures are optimized. Where the intake and exhaust systems can be tuned exactly to the HP/cu-in ratio.

Sort of. The HP, torque, and demand will always intersect at any operating point, But it think I understand what you are saying, which is that diesels typically have an rpm/torque region where bsfc is lowest (best). If you plot it like a terrain map, there is a sink hole where bsfc is lowest. But important to note - lowest bsfc comes in a specific load zone, and load is a combination of rpm and torque, not just rpm, and not just torque. Just spinning an engine at a particular rpm doesn't create efficiency.



Surprise surprise!!! This is also where diesel engines produce the least soot and pollutants! Surprise surprise!!! The 'demand curve' of a generator back-end is the only load that allows 100% perfectly managed loading of a diesel engine.

That's really no the case at all. A truck running at the same load would be the same. And a boat operating at the right speed would be the same. Boat propulsion is ideal for this since it is such a constant load, and this is the basis for the whole over-prop you boat approach to engine loading.

Regardless of whether its a diesel-electric locomotive or a trawler, the one technology that is utterly ignored in this debate is diesel-electric.

Hardly ignored. It has been optimized to create hybrid cars.

If I were designing the 'greenest' possible trawler, it NOT have $150,000 worth of chinese lithium batteries. It would have:


1) a relatively small, naturally aspirated, diesel engine spinning happily away in it's sweet spot, turning...

2) an ultra-efficient American-made (i.e Polar Power of CA) DC generator, feeding...

3) an American made electric motor propulsion system (i.e. Electric Yacht in MN), AND...

4) ...just enough chinese-made battery capacity to keep the diesel generator duty-cycle under 90% in the worst case scenarios.

Nigel Calder tried very hard to show how this might be an efficiency improvement in a series of articles in Passagemaker magazine. I think he found one very narrow scenario where it was equivalent or perhaps a tiny bit better, but in all other cases it was worse. And certainly not worth the added cost and complexity.


A more efficient approach would be a UN built Cummins or Deere engine, and a US built Twin Disc gear



Now...those of you who have been paying attention to electro-motive engineering during the last 100 years will recognize thiis as a natural evolution of the diesel-electric locomotive. You might slap palm to forehead and exclaim "D'oh! of course this is the answer!"



I would invite anyone to do the end-to-end energy chain math, including the impact on diesel engine reliability, and present any other solution that even gets close.


For cars, I would agree that a diesel hybrid would be better than a gas hybrid. But hardly a break through.

Question: Barring maintenance failures, anybody here ever seen a diesel-powered generator with a naturally aspirated engine fail at less than 10K-20K hours? When run in their 'sweet spot', diesel engines used solely to generate electricity last for a VERY long time...



So...why no 'hype-cycle" for diesel-electric?




Well, now you know why there is no "hype-cycle". And now you know why there are no performance tests showing a hybrid out performing non-hybrid under the same conditions. The "same conditions" part if critical. Most performance data shows reduced speed, which of course reduces power demand.
 
I live in BC.? Oodles of hydro too.

However, I work in Alberta at a plant that makes a fair percentage of the grids electricity as a byproduct. The main purpose is to make steam to inject into the ground.

As far as the Tesla barge goes, it will find it's niche and be purposeful, or not.

There is a sailboat in my marina that was converted to full electrical power. Made the rounds in the trade magazines. Sat for two years and was for sale for a fraction of the install price.

Just wasn't that practical in the end.

I'm surprised. A sailboat should make a great electric conversion as you only need engine to clear the dock. You will need a massive generator to power electrical loads, and recharge drive batteries however.

I've converted a small runabout to electric using a 200hp drive from an electric car conversion I did a few decade's ago.

I want to replace lead batteries with a lithium pack which will double range, (right now I get 50mins of runtime).
 
Where the power is generated is political, and off topic.

The point is, can an electric motor replace the primary drive, and provide reliable propulsion.
 
Where the power is generated is political, and off topic.

The point is, can an electric motor replace the primary drive, and provide reliable propulsion.

Possibly the more apt point is supplying ready KW to the electric motor. This issue has been well researched by some pretty smart marine guys. As TT mentioned a few posts ago, Nigel Calder wrote a definitive article on this subject a few years ago.

The ultimate question seems why fuss around with trying to replace some pretty decent marine propulsion systems? Not much to gain except hobbyists (aren’t we all) enthusiasms. The real push seems applications for increased efficiencies for shore based power needs. These efforts have been pursued for over a hundred years as costs for power are a large % of industrial power costs.
 
The point is, can an electric motor replace the primary drive, and provide reliable propulsion.


Actually the point is can it be done in a cost effective manner..... ww2 subs did electric propulsion only the government could afford the batteries though
:)
 
I'm surprised. A sailboat should make a great electric conversion as you only need engine to clear the dock. You will need a massive generator to power electrical loads, and recharge drive batteries however.

I've converted a small runabout to electric using a 200hp drive from an electric car conversion I did a few decade's ago.

I want to replace lead batteries with a lithium pack which will double range, (right now I get 50mins of runtime).
I think the real reason was that idealism got in the way of reality. Winds aren't that reliable here. When you have a long weekend to get up to Desolation Sound and the wind isn't blowing, or blowing the wrong way, an electric motor isn't going to get you there and back. Seems like unnecessary stress to add for recreational boating. A 9.9 Yamaha or little Yanmar diesel is pretty reliable for long distances.
 
I'm surprised. A sailboat should make a great electric conversion as you only need engine to clear the dock. You will need a massive generator to power electrical loads, and recharge drive batteries however.

I've converted a small runabout to electric using a 200hp drive from an electric car conversion I did a few decade's ago.

I want to replace lead batteries with a lithium pack which will double range, (right now I get 50mins of runtime).

A sailboat is a great vessel for the conversion to electric motors and there are a number of captains who have gone this route.

Captain Mike, owner of a Nonsuch 30 "Bianka" has an interesting blogpage, in which he has a 20-part read on converting his sailboat from a Westerbeke 27 to electric power. Regarding resale, I know of another boat, a Nonsuch 33, "Yumsuch" were the owners repowered to electric, and sold their boat in 2 weeks.

Sailboats, by and large, have less 'creature comforts' and the power usage on a sailboat (aside from maybe an electric motor) is less than many powerboats. Cruising range, of course depends on how the boat is sailed. For day sailing, overnight, or maybe even a couple of days, I could see how all-electric could work especially with a decent bank of batteries, solar, and maybe a wind generator. All it would take is plugging the charge system back into the shore power at one's dock.

Jim
 
Speaking of sailboats converter to electric, there is a YouTube channel called Sailing Uma, and they converted their boat. In one episode they speak candidly about the conversion along with two other couples would also converted their boats. They were all very frank that although it works, it's a very different usage model than what you get with a diesel. In other words, if you cut you power use way, way back...... People just need to adjust expectations if they are going to convert.
 
""They are about the only way to deliver a few thousand HP from zero to maybe a hundred rpm."

STEAM actually does great at producing massive torque at zero rpm.

There are new versions of steam multi fuel engines that recapture 100% of the water the military is experimenting with and are claimed more efficient than diesels..
 
The-gravimetric-energy-densities-Wh-kg-for-various-types-of-rechargeable-batteries.png


Diesel is easy to add. This graph tells the story. You need to get much higher energy densities to compete with todays fuels.
 
""They are about the only way to deliver a few thousand HP from zero to maybe a hundred rpm."

STEAM actually does great at producing massive torque at zero rpm.

There are new versions of steam multi fuel engines that recapture 100% of the water the military is experimenting with and are claimed more efficient than diesels..


True on massive torque for a steam reciprocating engine like in a steam locomotive. But we have mostly moved past that.


Closed loop steam turbines, like those used in large scale power plants, are very efficient, and is part of the argument that the full grid-generation to consumption cycle for electric cars is better that burning fuel directly in the car. But I haven't seen any actual data to form any opinion on it. I've just heard both arguments.


I suspect the military system is a turbine-based system? Would you have any more details on it?
 
Another challenge with a number of alternate power plants is how quickly they can change load level. A diesel, gas engine, or electric motor can change power level immediately, and that's really important for a vehicle. It's important for a boat, but in many cases much less so. Once underway, power consumption is very steady.


Steam powered devices, fuel cells, and large grid power plants are much slower to respond, and often have very limited range of power output. My recollection is that fuel cells are basically one power setting.
 
For the people following this thread...I have something that might get some interest....I am a partner in a company called Molecular Impact Energy....and we are in our 2nd generation prototype phase of an engine that runs on saltwater to produce electricity. The 2nd gen prototype will be completed in about 6 weeks..figure in early June there will be media hype as we invite a couple dozen major Yacht companies and electric motor companies like Torqueedo and others on the cutting edge. This 2nd gen prototype will be totally self sustaining and will be coupled to a turbine to put out about 20kW....."After" this we will do one to put out about 500HP, for something like a GreenLine Yacht.
 
Dan: You can use my boat for the perfect prototype!:thumb::socool:

As info is released, please keep us informed. There are many professional and self-taught engineers here who eat & drink alternative propulsion tech.
 
I don't need you guys to believe this now...I know it sounds like I am telling you the earth is flat. But...I got all the money we needed to finish this, and the prototype we will unveil in about 6 weeks will be changing the world. We are assembling at FAU, and we will have some of the most high profile marine engineers in the world checking on everything in the demo...After that, the plan is for us to buy a Greenline 40 foot yacht, without the diesel or solar, to drop our MIE engine it..to charge a bank of batteries and run the electric motors...and I will be doing booze cruises with execs and heads of state, and doing scuba dive trips with this off of Palm Beach, and you will be welcome to get on one of these and see how we run on salt water....It would be pretty hard to fake this if we are running fast all day long!
 
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