Too big or too small?

[Art]

Thinking about it, a larger boat can give more choices for layout while still having enough space. You can go for a layout that's easier to move around but sacrifices usable space (relative to its size), but go bigger overall so you still have enough space.

Boat design/type has a lot has to do with what types of maximum experienced "sea conditions" will be experienced. There are large "house-type" boats [with decently designed mono hulls] that are very flat and spacious inside, having twins and FB's easy to access. But! - not something I'd use in any more than relatively calm waters... e.g., 4' to 5' chop at the very largest!!

 

[mvweebles]

In my opinion, about the best couple-boat I've spent any time on is the Nordhavn 57. Almost all were equipped with hydraulic bow and stern thrusters, and also equipped with multiple auxilliary helm stations. Wing stations are nice, but a cockpit station is especially handy. Very accessible boat. They're still expensive to buy into, but resale is strong so TCO is reasonable.

Sailors often talk about how a boat is setup vs it's raw size and it's true. With all lines properly run aft and judicious placement of an electric winch or two, a large boat can be handled with relative ease.

If your wife is serious, you're in good shape - easier to learn to manage a larger boat than disappoint your wife. And depending on your lifestyle, she very well might be right - us guys can be a bit unrealistic thinking we would he happy in Huck Finn mode.

I think the maintenance of a larger boat with many systems would be tougher than learning to handle her underway. There's no reason a larger boat must have more and complicated systems but they usually do.

Good luck.

Peter

 

[High Wire]

Chitwood charters in Sarasota would let you charter the boat and stay at the dock or bareboat or have a capt onboard. 36 through 52”.

 

[Simi 60]

.

I think the maintenance of a larger boat with many systems would be tougher than learning to handle her underway. There's no reason a larger boat must have more and complicated systems but they usually do.

Good luck.

Peter

And thats why our boat held such great appeal to me as a boatbuilder
Less gear and simplistic systems means less to go wrong

About the only thing that has caused annoyance in 6+ years of full time use is cheap waterpumps
And a change of location for them now has them as a 15 minute swap out.
3 year warranty has had me only buy the first two , 1 in use and 1 spare, so can't complain.

 

[Delta Riverat]

We were looking at boats that had a full Queen standard mattress. Sleeping is an issue for me and I didn't want to be "memory foamed"

Mobility was important (easy steps, no ladders) also.

Cost was an issue, under a hundred grand.

Bought a 44 foot.

Since I came from outboards (max 21 foot) we also needed training. When we bought the boat I didn't even know how to start the engines.

 

[long-cours.62]

For us our 72' actual trawler is too big, not relally by the size but for the cost for lifting, docking, consumption if we have more $$$ all this "problem will be solved

For manoeuvring same as smaller one but the weight must keep in mind...
During our life we move succefully from 8.26m to 14m to 10.45m, work on 25m 110t (Tangier), to 14.5m,18.28m (first twin engined), 15.8m, 26.86m (twin engine), 16.30m twin engine motor sailor Cheoy lee, 12m, 17.8m ...3 engine (main engine and two wing ), Longcours62 twin engine, 28.95m twin engine, and the actual 21.5m twin engine.
All that to say : you will adapt you to your new boat.
For us to manouevring in close quater of course twin engined and living space/storage/range 18.28m, 16.30m, 17.80m, LC62,
For what we do with boat only the 17.80m (Doggerbank) and the "perfect for us the LC62 because lighter by 13T 30cm less draft compared to the Dogger.


But if we was not so old built a new one just under 16.80m, mono engine but with trusther small draft, weight 26t need 16.80m because for living on board /storage etc because we like low profile, not too beamy but of course you could find the same volume on a 50'.
50' compared to 35' for manoeuvring I think it is not a big challenge you only must learn the boat .
But for example if we sale our actual and move down to 15m/16m we also need to learn the new one even if smaller, lighter ...
I saw a couple with a Island Gypsy 52 trawler the boat look perfect for and they are older than 70'
If you look at the Sélène 72' who traveling in the North/West they alway take crew you have lot of website where potential crew apply for find paid/unpaid/participate position it could be an option.

 

[NStenger]

Keep in mind that it is layout, not length, that will dictate comfort. I have been on 50 foot boats that have less cabin room than my 40 foot boats.

Things like having a walk around full queen bed, separate shower stall, comfortable day seating, headroom, galley space, etc.

Ditto on the other posts about insurance. Most companies do not want to see you jump more than 10 feet at a time. Depending on company and your prior experience of course.

 

[Art]

Keep in mind that it is layout, not length, that will dictate comfort. I have been on 50 foot boats that have less cabin room than my 40 foot boats.

Things like having a walk around full queen bed, separate shower stall, comfortable day seating, headroom, galley space, etc.

Ditto on the other posts about insurance. Most companies do not want to see you jump more than 10 feet at a time. Depending on company and your prior experience of course.

I'd like to jump in with NStenger... to agree with the above post; its contents hit another nail on the head! And, several other posts in this thread have already well hit additional nails the head!.

In this case, some boats are laid out well... others not so much. Due to our using our boat only for long weekends, holidays and occasional cruise we went from coming close to purchasing a 48' Tollycraft to instead purchasing a twin screw, flying bridge - 34' tri cabin Tollycraft.

Reasons for doing so:
- Fantastically spacious, comfortable, useable and easy-care layout for a 34' boat. Besides, when we located this baby she'd just been completely refurbished, looked/ran great and was at the correct price - what's not to LOVE!
- Covered vast majority of our wants and all of our must-haves aboard our "play-toy" boat. I mean, to be rational... if you're not living aboard then pleasure boats are simply adult "Play-Toys" - right?
- Easily fits in 40' X 14' covered berth - Saves oodles of maintenance expense/money and so much personal time regarding boat-exterior care.
- Insurance easy to get and affordable.
- Super easy to handle in all tight places... fuel docks, covered berth, tight canals, crowded bays while anchoring... etc...
- Hauling, bottom painting costs lower than same for larger boats.
- This 34' Tolly's planing hull draft is only 2'10" - with an accurate depth sounder and twins for intricate maneuvering at very slow speeds [idle rpm] that opens gunk-hole opportunities that larger, deeper draft boats can't touch.
- She carries enough weight to readily handle seas encountered. And, her twin screws did what ever we desired. Due to planing hull design [although we usually cruise at considerably affordable 7 knots] there are times we jump her onto plane and cruise at 16 to 17 knots - more fuel per MOG but much less time from point A to B. And... if reason/need suddenly comes up to get some place quickly we can push her along at 20 nmph without hitting WOT [that's 22 to 23 nmph]. Happened to us twice in 15 years with this boat; one was a physical emergency of our matriarch/granny back in town, the other was incoming bad weather.

Sooo... I mention the above to assure you there are some not-so-big boats that are quite seaworthy as well as comfortable and easy to handle. With, considerable affordability as a plus!

It all depends on "What Floats Your Boat" Pun intended!!

 

[Hippocampus]

Close friend is a professional captain of large and mega yachts. With him breathing the same air as me and the understanding if he takes the helm I move out of the way immediately have helmed.

Think boats come in three sizes. Small enough you can manhandle. Things like center consoles and skiffs. Mid size where you are strong enough to move the boat in the right conditions by pulling on a line. Large enough that the machinery (thrusters , engines and such) or a winch is required to make any meaningful difference. No chance you pushing on it would make any difference at all.

Boat handling is entirely different with each size. Not harder or easier just different. For all general rules apply. Slow is pro. Start with a plan. Have everyone on the boat and dock know what you’re trying to do before you do it. Only one person can run the show.

Size doesn’t matter as much as the particular boat and it’s set up. Had a PSC 34 which was hard to dock until I learned it quirks. Then was incredibly easy. Had an Outbound 46 which was easy to dock from the get go even in 20k.

Once you’re out and about size is pretty much irrelevant. Stood watch on boats my friend captained. Like the Outbound winches were powered. The big boys had some captured lines and powered in and out. You could be at the helm, never move from there, and run the boat. It was even easier than the Outbound. Believe it’s probably the same with power.
So far with my limited experience would think docking is less of an issue in large power than mid size. Real problem is whether there’s enough room. Big thrusters that won’t time out, big enough to overcome wind or current. Enough helms or cameras that sight lines aren’t as much of an issue.
Have seen large recreational boats dock. Sometimes they are brought in then pinned to dock with the thrusters (if proportional) or brief bursts. A hand steps off and secures the lines. No fuss. No bother. No rushing around. On my small to mid size boat I can do that in calm waters but don’t yet have the skills to do that in stronger winds or currents. Need a spring or midship line ASAP. Only then can step off the boat and do the other lines. Some times need some one already on the dock. See big boats not use a dockhand on occasion. A thing of beauty and skill

 

[hmason]

Like this? And I’ll be 81 in April

 

[Simi 60]

.

Take your wife to a marina and walk up to a 50 footer on the hard. Stand under the bow and mention that the hull will need to be washed and waxed at least once in a while.

pete

That's what money is for
Can't afford to pay?
Don't buy
Pretty simple.

 

[Cold Duck]

When we went to 65, the boat handling was not the issue. Just the sheer maintenance of a 65 was a killer. We arrive at Nassau after an overnight run from Fl, pull into the marina and we are dead. then Forbe's pulls in next to us and 10 20yr olds that jump out and clean the boat down, secure everything. We just lay there on the salon floor (also in 70s then). We back to a 39fter and happy, less work to maintain the ship. So don't just look at handling, but the sheer maintenance is a very big deal on a bigger boat.

 

[BruceK]

My GP says there are 70 year olds, and there are 70 year olds. Not everyone is decrepit at 70.
That said, you`ll be single handing a boat twice the size you are used to, probably at least 10ft more than you really need, with systems likely new to you. Plus you have on board your wife with apparently significant health and ? mobility problems which adds to the potential of issues from the boat itself.
I would say tread warily. A boat that size is a big undertaking. And you already have much good advice above about insurability and other issues. I think if you felt comfortable about the proposal you would not be seeking advice. Be realistic, if you decide you can manage, go for it.

 

[slowgoesit]

Okay folks, "Be Nice"! It's one of the Rules after all. Several posts were removed. Remember, if you can't say something NICE, please don't say anything at all.

 

[Cold Duck]

That's what money is for
Can't afford to pay?
Don't buy
Pretty simple.

I'm not sure this is a fair analysis of boat ownership. Some of us prefer to be "self-sufficient" as opposed to spending money to have people do jobs that we end up having to do over again right. They can tie up the boat for unacceptable time periods, cause stress and generally be a pain in the ass. I am sure if we had an unlimited purse, we would have a crew of 10, a 90 fter and never have to do anything. Oh, wait. I prefer to be captain of my own ship. Many times we considered crew for certain passages and decided, after lots of research, they would be more trouble than they were worth. This was not a monetary decision. So throwing money at boat ownership is not the solution for many of us and to say we can't afford it therefore we shouldn't own it is not a viable evaluation in my opinion. The OP of this thread wants to enter the world of living on a boat with certain constraints and expectations. All boats are a compromise based on many considerations of which money is only one. My first mate has developed MS that decreases her ability to function in many boat handling capacities. Yet I would have no issues handling a 50-65fter with her in just about any conditions. Yet our current requirements find an MS350 to fit our needs along with a 26ft offshore, a 22ft center console fisher, and a few other misc vessels. Oh, by the way, I am 74 and been boating since I was 10. I would find it distasteful to have someone tell me I shouldn't be boating because of my age. But, someone entering big boat ownership and operations should take a hard look at what he expects to do and use this vessel for. Most liveaboards spend 90% or more time at the dock which is fine. If you want to cruise local rivers, lakes and bays, again fine. If you want to set sail for Mexico or the Caribbean, you are going to want to take a hard look at your capabilities and those of your vessel regardless of the size of the vessel. As many have said here, boat configurations vary drastically. A 40ft sailboat has less livable space than a 40ft trawler which has less than a 40ft Houseboat. Yet each has it's own special capabilities if you need them. I wouldn't place an arbitrary size constraint at this stage of your planning. Living on a boat changes your lifestyle drastically. If you wife is just planning on a smaller living space as the only constraint, you are in for some issues. It can truly be liberating to divest yourself of your landlubber accruements and lifestyle and you find you need far less space than you do on land. Good luck and realize there is far more to living aboard than the size of your vessel.

 

[Simi 60]

I'm not sure this is a fair analysis of boat ownership. Some of us prefer to be "self-sufficient" as opposed to spending money to have people do jobs that we end up having to do over again right. They can tie up the boat for unacceptable time periods, cause stress and generally be a pain in the ass.

Then get a boat you are capable of working on yourself if you can't trust others.

I am a boatbuilder by trade but I haven't done a bottom job or hull paint on my own boat since the 90's
I will supervise, but leave the sanding and spraying/ rolling of toxic chemicals to others.

Most other work i am definately more hands on as I agree, paying money is no guarantee of results.

And, as we are out for 18mths for 2 years at a time, everything onboard is done by me during that timeframe.

 

[Joe Floatin Bobby]

Thanks for all the opinions and ideas here! There are even a few that almost agree with each other. lol.

My vote is for smaller. I like the Huckleberry Finn idea and would be happy with a Pearson Triton or a Folkboat. But my wife really wants to come along. I'd like her to come along. But if she decides it's not for her and jumps ship, I don't want to be left with too much more of a boat than what I need to complete the mission.

I'm feeling some pressure. The candle is getting shorter. I don't have the luxury or being able to go through buying and selling a handful of boats over the next couple decades.

I like the idea of chartering a few different flavors as a few of you have suggested. I'll explore that concept.

The mission: long-range cruising.
Budget: =/- $325K US
Special requirements: Super-comfortable salon, centerline bed, few stairs and fewer
ladders.

I expect to be making some multi-day passages and don't mind conscripting some extra hands for those. So a guest cabin or two will be appreciated. But it's likely I'll be single-handing most of the time and probably about a 71% chance I'll be floating solo after a while so I don't want a floating dormitory.

Again, thanks so much for the input.

 

[AquaDestiny]

My wife is certain she needs a boat 50ish feet or longer to be comfortable because of her physical ailments. I don’t feel comfortable jumping to that size from the 25’ boats I’ve operated.

I get it. She wants to be comfortable if she’s going to be going on cruises of several months. She has the spirit and desire to do the long-range cruising. But she just can’t see being able to do what she needs to do on a smaller boat (under 48’ minimum) for any length of time.

Realistically, most of the time I will be pretty much be wearing all the hats. Seaman, cleaner, chef, mechanic and so on.
I know I can single-hand and maintain a smaller boat.

I’m in pretty good health for 74. But not as spry as I was a few years ago.
I’m fine with getting some training on operating a larger boat. But
I don’t want to depend on a captain or crew every time I untie the boat.

So, I’d appreciate any input on how big is too big for one crusty old guy to comfortably handle.

P.S. it’s not really an option to get a smaller one and upgrade over a course of several years. It’s now or never.

I would say first thing to do is go to the next in water boat show (do not bring your check book) visit all the boats that interest you, spend a good bit of time on them and visualize your daily routine. Figure out how much storage you need, etc. Figure out what is the smallest boat you can accomplish the mission with. My sweet spot is 35ft. But that's me.

 

[Airnet]

Charter a couple times. There's an outfit in Anacortes that does a 3 day "Big Boat" course which covers 52-56 feet. I took it a couple years ago, it's great. The focus is mostly parking. After that you can take out any of their boats.

I also think bigger is easier to drive. Washing is exhausting. We upsized from 40ft to fit our 3 kids and a dog. We all fit on the 40ft but it was tight. The 40ft was perfect for two.

25ft vs 40 vs 55 are all very big jumps for living space. 25 to 55 is like going from a 500 sq ft apartment to a 5000 sq ft house. That's a massive jump.

 

[SteveK]

When I had my 30 foot sailboat I thought that was big enough ......... and that was after owing a 37, chartering a 41, operating a 57 to name a few.
Then I went and got the 36 GB because I always wanted one of those.
Here I am today with a 45 because that is where we are with our wants and needs.
For now it is a not too small and/or a not too big boat.

It is all about where you/we are in life.
Even now work is still getting in the way.

 

[Simi 60]

Posting from Oz I find it interesting all these big boat course, charter, get a captain comments.

Over here any Muppet with a pulse and $$ can go from doing a half day speedboat licence with 10 minutes of prac in a 12ft tinny on a lake (my license experience) to driving a superyacht @ 30+ knots. ( I have found no actual size restriction mentioned)
And they do which is bloody frightening.

We at least did work our way up through several sailing vessels of our own to 35 feet and have a documented 50,000+ miles on them, before stepping into 60ft.

 

[Hippocampus]

Much to be said for 2’itis.

If yo intend to live aboard for any length of time think the following is important.

You need a place to hide and be alone. At least one inside and one outside. You need that place to do intellectual work, daydream, read, do fine detail work and for your emotional health. Our current 42/44’er is wonderful for a couple as it meets those needs. 4 is tight but doable for up to 2 or 3 weeks. Then it gets old trying to find private space. Even for phone calls.

You need a place(s) which are yours. You can put whatever you want in them. Whatever way you want to. Every person on board needs such place(s).

Some <40’ have enough places for 2 people. Some >50’ don’t. If you have more than a loving couple you need more than one head. Especially with daughters or an unrelated couple. Also you need at least one sleeping area with a door per every 1-2 people depending upon their relationship. Couples need somewhere to have a spat, sulk, or have nucky that’s private. Sons like to piss over the rail, tend to sulk less in my experience so not as bad. . I can put 7 unrelated guys on a 46’ but only two couples and have everyone smiling.

Not ever having a really big boat one of the constant annoyances is having to move something to get to something. Also remembering where things are. To the extent the size and layout minimizes that situation size does matter. Think that by itself is a reason to go over 40’.

 

[ranger58sb]

Posting from Oz I find it interesting all these big boat course, charter, get a captain comments.

Often driven by insurance requirements.

Some (many? most?) States mandate courses for boating safety, but that's generally for younger folks (oldies are usually grandfathered in) and focused more on PFDs and such. I think nothing much in those courses would teach how to handle a big boat.

-Chris

 

[rslifkin]

Posting from Oz I find it interesting all these big boat course, charter, get a captain comments.

Over here any Muppet with a pulse and $$ can go from doing a half day speedboat licence with 10 minutes of prac in a 12ft tinny on a lake (my license experience) to driving a superyacht @ 30+ knots. ( I have found no actual size restriction mentioned)
And they do which is bloody frightening.

We at least did work our way up through several sailing vessels of our own to 35 feet and have a documented 50,000+ miles on them, before stepping into 60ft.

In terms of legally operating the thing, you can do the same over here. But if you try, most insurance companies will refuse to insure you unless you take a training captain out at first and they sign off on you being competent to operate the boat.

 

[Circumnavigator]

As mentioned above, insurance will be a major issue. We went


Clytie -- 30' cutter - cruised Maine-New York age 27

Clarissa Carver - 40' gaff schooner - ditto - age 30

Other People's Boats, racing and cruising - age 32 - 50

Sweetwater - Swan 57 sloop -- circumnav - Age 52

Fintry - 79' 150 tons dispacement x Royal Navy Fleet Tender -- Atlantic crossing, 20,000 miles -- Age 60-75

Morning Light - 42' single screw trawler, 2,000 miles so far -- Age 79


No insurance problems although Fintry's insurance became a lot cheaper when we both got USCG Master's Licenses (100 ton near coastal)


As several people have mentioned, boat handling is not really an issue. Dee and I regularly docked Fintry without help (single five foot screw with rudder to match, 60hp bow thruster). The Swan was actually harder. The owner of one of Fintry's sisters regularly docks her singlehanded - at his home dock, in a very sheltered harbor to be sure, but the wheel is 12 feet above the main deck.



I've been aboard a lot of boats and unless you plan on more than two guests, I can't see any advantage for 50' over 40' or so except -- big except -- boats get more stable as a power function of the size. Remember that a 50 foot boat has twice the volume and displacement of a 40 foot boat. If you are planning on any significant time offshore, go bigger or get a gyro or both. We crossed the Atlantic on Fintry. We do overnights on Morning Light, but only with a good forecast and the gyro, if needed.


A 50 foot boat has half again more surface area than a 40. More to wash down outside, more to sweep or vacuum inside, more bottom to paint.


Twins versus a single is a long argument here -- no need to raise it again. It's easier to find a good single screw boat at 40 feet than at 50 feet.


Jim

 

[Cold Duck]

Posting from Oz I find it interesting all these big boat course, charter, get a captain comments.


We at least did work our way up through several sailing vessels of our own to 35 feet and have a documented 50,000+ miles on them, before stepping into 60ft.

aren't we missing the OPs objective here? There's no way he is suddenly going to spend a lifetime gathering bluewater experience for his application so why tout our own experiences as requirements for this newby? This kind of information is of no value for a newbie who wants to live on a boat and try to keep his first mate happy. I fully understand his requirements for a bed, stairs, ladders, etc. As we age those become big issues which is why we now have a MS350, a bed you don't have to do contortions to make up, minimum stairs, no ladders, transom door to get to dock, and a spiral staircase to get to flybridge. Yet I wouldn't want to live on the MS350, a week, or so, at a time is fine. My minimum sweet spot to live aboard would be 45ft but that's me, I've lived aboard for 10+ yrs 40-65fters. Everyone is different. Also didn't you notice he lives in Florida. So, cruising will most likely be Keys, maybe Bahamas and like most cruisers end at Georgetown (Chicken City). This is just the way it goes. Few cruisers venture further than Georgetown except the more venture seeking. There's nothing wrong with this, it's just the facts. One should realize also that cruising is not necessarily forever even though we might plan it as such. Make a 5 year plan then revise as needed. Have an option to landlubber it later if needed. If you have access to an experienced boater to teach you, a 45-50fter can be mastered in a reasonable amount of time. You might not be the best boat handler, but you should be adequate for Florida and Bahamas boating. Go for it. It might only last a season but if you don't try, you'll never know.

 

[Simi 60]

aren't we missing the OPs objective here? There's no way he is suddenly going to spend a lifetime gathering bluewater experience for his application so why tout our own experiences as requirements for this newby? This kind of information is of no value for a newbie who wants to live on a boat and try to keep his first mate happy.

Can you point to where it was suggested that the OP gets that experience?

My comment had nothing to do with the Op's want to keep his 1st mate happy and was all about the qualifications needed in the US vs other lands

 

[Cold Duck]

Can you point to where it was suggested that the OP gets that experience?

My comment had nothing to do with the Op's want to keep his 1st mate happy and was all about the qualifications needed in the US vs other lands

I don't want to get confrontational because I believe we are very much the same, we'd rather be on our boats than breathe. We can't imagine life without our boats. I would just guess that 90% of those owning trawlers do not have the bluewater experiences that we have and never will. (However; a lot more cruisers are getting long distance cruising experience now which is great.) When I started there were less than 100 cruisers in the Pacific from US to Panama during the transit season, and no dock from San Diego to Panama except Acapulco YC @ $100/day when we were spending $150/mo all expenses. Now there are marinas all up and down the coast, so things have changed. But many boaters move into and then out of cruising and boat ownership. There are more of these than the hardcore boaters that if we could, would have our boats set on autopilot heading out to sea on that final voyage with the "Viking Funeral" music playing and a timed funeral pyre set to go off outside the 3mile limit.

As far as the qualifications in the US, legally all you need is a valid Drivers License and a Boating safety course completed (if you are not of a certain elderly age where you are exempt from the course for a while longer). A 16yr old with a DL and the online boating course is legal to operate a 65fter. The OP in this thread is new to "big boat" operation and ownership. With a minimal amount of effort, he can become proficient to operate a 45-50fter with an experienced guide to help him. Realistically is he going to jump off and make an ocean crossing? No. But then most vessels owned by TF members are not going to do that either, I know I wouldn't with my MS350 but it was bought for a different purpose. We all know (or should know) that vessels in the 50ft or larger range are just more difficult to own. It's going to be much harder to find a dock or mooring for a 65fter in the Bahamas than a 40-45fter, Draft becomes an issue all up and down the ICW, Keys and Bahamas. I know from personal experience. A discussion on vast boating experience is all good and well but not really applicable to our OP. I agree with your premise of moving up slowly but sometimes that just can't happen. I moved from a flat bottom 18ft ski boat to a 41ft ketch with first sailing on the ocean when we left under the Golden Gate and turned south towards Panama. With help the OP can fulfill his dream, satisfy his wife and enjoy the same satisfaction we get of living and cruising on a vessel for some TBD period of time depending on how it suits them. To the OP: educate yourself by looking at lots of boats, ask questions here on TF, then if it still looks good, go for it.