Speed limit proposal

[psneeld]

The "experts" while not perfect have to sometimes experiment to see what does and doesn't work.

AIS when it first came out a long time ago, the enforcement possibility was debated ad nauseum. The government decided to make it non mandatory back then for most recs, new issues have caused them to rethink the tech. Progress can evolve in many ways.

One big problem is for rescue resources. You scream MAYDAY and the USCG comes towards you at full speed, hits a whale, then gets sued by environmental groups because ultimately you didn't sink and they convince the judge their response was unnecessary and was violating the speed limit.

The world is way more complicated than many of us can imagine.

 

[Gdavid]

Do local notices to mariners include reminders of the whale protection speed zones? The following quote sounds like they would but I haven't been in an area during that time period to potentially hear one.

"NOAA Fisheries announces Right Whale Slow Zones to mariners through its customary maritime communication media and displays any active zones below, with the most recent designation first."

edit: nevermind, I see in the substack article that they do announce it in the notice to mariners.

 

[FWT]

No one ever wants to hit a whale. That's a given.

What strikes me:

1) The seasonal periods shown in the maps in the article do seem to avoid the most popular cruising seasons. It might cause some of the seasonal migration south to begin promptly and avoid a late departure, and pause a bit in the south before the trip north. But not excessively so. So in some ways perhaps much ado about nothing.

2) However, the size of the fines is absurd. $20,000 fines (max fine) is insane. Crushing someone with a $7500 fine (per instance) who is simply unaware isn't a good thing for government to be doing, especially if those fines are imposed for multiple occasions at once before the boater knows what hit him. That crosses over into abusive.

 

[psneeld]

The Limit off Jax/So. Georgia is announced on the VHF radio all day in addition to being on charts, in the Coast Pilot. I am not sure if repeated in every NOTAM.

 

[Art]

Good article thanks. I'm not real comfortable with AIS being used as a law enforcement tool. It would be the same as sending speeding tickets to drivers based on GPS data monitoring. I'm also not convinced that the boater who killed a whale at 14 knots would have had a significantly different outcome at 10 knots. I'm not against protecting whales, just not certain this is the way to do it.

OK!! That's It!!! Humans are banned from using power boats! No, only kidding...

So, on one post I was told it's not the props that kill whales... it's that boats bump into whales and kill them. Photo here sure looked like whale death due to prop cuts. Therefore why not have single or double "SS - Bars" fastened alongside props so the blades can't slice into whales?? Sort of like a very wide open prop cage that would create little to no drag regarding speed through water... but would fend off whales from contact with prop blades?

Also, properly designed those SS - Bars could fend off the whale good enough so as to not have the prop shafts and rudders ripped out so as to sink the boat.

 

[FWT]

The Limit off Jax/So. Georgia is announced on the VHF radio all day in addition to being on charts, in the Coast Pilot. I am not sure if repeated in every NOTAM.

None of which addresses abusive fine levels.

Personally I don’t expect any of this to impact me personally. But wrong is wrong.

 

[Hippocampus]

Cetaceans sleep. They are mammals. Some sleep half their brain at a time to a degree. But you see them fairly inert on the surface while sleeping. While sailing P’town to southwest harbor came very close to hitting one. Sleeping on the surface chop made it very hard to see at dusk. It was bigger than the boat. Fortunately although feet away it didn’t wake. A tail twitch may have sunk us. Can easily understand how there would be a close encounter or strike. Especially with a ship rolling along under AP with vision difficult. Break enough ribs or the spine it drowns and dies. Their migration is fairly worked out as are feeding grounds. Have no issue with exclusion zones in areas where there is very high density of at risk populations. Especially cows and calves which to my observation will cluster in a relatively small area. With exclusion zones imposed for small areas and short periods of time less disruption to vessels, no need for speed limits and likely decrease collisions by 70-90%. Technology allows this level of real time observation. Even to the extent of calling a given vessel and telling them to divert to avoid collision.

Also have the unpopular opinion anything transiting in the ocean should be mandated to have an AIS TRANsceiver. You’re required to have functional headlights, break lights and blinkers to,avoid collision. See mandatory AIS transceivers as no different. With transceivers folks see you which is half of the equation

 

[SoWhat]

I'm not real comfortable with AIS being used as a law enforcement tool.

Doesn't seem likely. Too easy to shut off and AIS has a short range. Very low percentage of recreational boats have installed AIS. Imposition of speed limits will work if there is enforcement. Same as highway speed limits. Many people are 80+ on the Interstates. Is there a cop under the next bridge or not???

I can't imagine the underfunded USCG is going to equip all their boats with radar/laser speed detectors and then sit somewhere waiting for a boat to go by.

Technology allows this level of real time observation. Even to the extent of calling a given vessel and telling them to divert to avoid collision.

Technology may allow it assuming the monitor is within range. I do not have a transceiver and have no intention of installing one. I use radar. If the gov't wants me to retrofit my boat with AIS then they can pay for it.

 

[KnotYet]

OK!! That's It!!! Humans are banned from using power boats! No, only kidding...

So, on one post I was told it's not the props that kill whales... it's that boats bump into whales and kill them. Photo here sure looked like whale death due to prop cuts. Therefore why not have single or double "SS - Bars" fastened alongside props so the blades can't slice into whales?? Sort of like a very wide open prop cage that would create little to no drag regarding speed through water... but would fend off whales from contact with prop blades?

Also, properly designed those SS - Bars could fend off the whale good enough so as to not have the prop shafts and rudders ripped out so as to sink the boat.

That infant whale was probably only weeks or months old and could also
have died from being struck with or without such a contraption.

 

[Art]

That infant whale was probably only weeks or months old and could also
have died from being struck with or without such a contraption.

Whale in photo from link on post #59 looks to measure in the 40' to 50' range. Only weeks or months old???

 

[psneeld]

Based on the guys measuring it, 25 feet 30 max is my quess. Even less than 25 is likely.

 

[KnotYet]

Whale in photo from link on post #59 looks to measure in the 40' to 50' range. Only weeks or months old???

Yup, 15' or more and weigh a ton or more at birth and they grow pretty fast.
As psneeld notes, that one is maybe 25'.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. FWT. Your post#63. "...who is simply unaware...". Ignorance of the law is no excuse. I'm quite sure that imposition of a fine will make the media. A few, highly publicized, $20K "contributions" should go a long way in slowing people down.


While higher speed collisions might be lessened by imposition of speed restrictions what hasn't been addressed and a different but marginally related cause of whale deaths is entanglement with fishing gear. Are we likely to see mandatory changes in designs/use of certain fishing equipments?

 

[CaptTom]

... Are we likely to see mandatory changes in designs/use of certain fishing equipments?

We're already there. They're going after lobster fishing gear, which has never been shown to cause any whale fatalities. This is the typical government feel-good legislation designed more to give the appearance of doing something than actually addressing the real problem. Sort of like NDZs.

 

[Porgy]

NOAA decides to go after the entire Maine lobster industry as a mere feel good measure for appearances sake? That stretches credulity way past the limits of not even passing the straight face test.

Reports are that lobster gear has in fact been responsible for whale deaths and a recent court ruling says NOAA based their rule on rational and available data.

 

[backinblue]

That infant whale was probably only weeks or months old and could also
have died from being struck with or without such a contraption.

But not at 10 knots?

 

[backinblue]

We're already there. They're going after lobster fishing gear, which has never been shown to cause any whale fatalities. This is the typical government feel-good legislation designed more to give the appearance of doing something than actually addressing the real problem. Sort of like NDZs.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help. - Ronald Reagan

 

[psneeld]

Hope your reply to the USCG rrscue swimmer doesnt have that flavor if one ever swims up to you.

 

[Art]

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help. - Ronald Reagan

Terrifying words are when a pres claims:

"I'm not a crook"

or

"I won the election"

 

[KnotYet]

But not at 10 knots?

I'm not sure if you want an answer but I would personally rather be hit
at 10kts than, say, 14kts. The damaging force would only be half as much
and the time available to avoid it would be 40% longer.

 

[backinblue]

I'm not sure if you want an answer but I would personally rather be hit
at 10kts than, say, 14kts. The damaging force would only be half as much
and the time available to avoid it would be 40% longer.

It was a legit question and I don't disagree with your answers BUT the root of the question is will the 10 knot limit actually accomplish what it intends. A whale sleeping near the surface is not evading the boat regardless of its speed. Yes, slower the speed the less the impact, but will the limit actually save whales and at what cost to boaters and the boating industry? I don't know the answers and not taking a stance either way, just asking and trying to better understand the issues.

 

[Gdavid]

It was a legit question and I don't disagree with your answers BUT the root of the question is will the 10 knot limit actually accomplish what it intends. A whale sleeping near the surface is not evading the boat regardless of its speed. Yes, slower the speed the less the impact, but will the limit actually save whales and at what cost to boaters and the boating industry? I don't know the answers and not taking a stance either way, just asking and trying to better understand the issues.

I assume the speed reduction giving the skipper better odds to see and avoid the whale is a larger factor than the force of impact. That said I would expect not running fast predawn or after dusk would make a larger improvement. Trying to get sportfishing boats to run 10 knots or less in the early morning would be a tough sell especially for charter boats.

 

[FlyWright]

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help. - Ronald Reagan

Terrifying words are when a pres claims:

"I'm not a crook"

or

"I won the election"

Let's keep it out of politics, friends. The Mod Squad doesn't want to have to edit or delete posts or close the thread. These posts don't contribute to the conversation but redirect to the political aspects which we must avoid.

We're all responsible adults here. Please do your best to avoid the world politic.

Thanks for listening.

 

[Art]

I'm not sure if you want an answer but I would personally rather be hit
at 10kts than, say, 14kts. The damaging force would only be half as much
and the time available to avoid it would be 40% longer.

It surprises me that marine animals are not automatically well prepared to naturally/instinctively stay far away from noise-making power driven boats. Their engines' and turning props' loud, piercing sounds travel far from the boat moving through water... especially at higher RPM and speeds.

Maybe whales have simply become so used to hearing the many boats' noise that it has become a ho-hum factor to them... until... BANG or SLICE happens and it's suddenly then too often "Game Over!

 

[Comodave]

We were bringing one of our previous boats down the Pacific coast. We had been in heavy fog for 24 hours. The fog happened to lift a bit and I saw what I first thought was a rock but we were 10NM offshore. Then it spouted just before we would have hit it. I turned the boat as fast as I could and missed it by about 30 or 40 feet. I had assumed that the whale would be aware of the surrounding area and heard us coming from a long ways away, that boat had twin Detroits in it so it wasn’t quiet by any means. We were going about 9 knots. If we had been going any faster we absolutely would have hit the whale. What it would have done to the whale who knows but it probably would have sunk my boat.

 

[catalinajack]

No one ever wants to hit a whale. That's a given.



What strikes me:



1) The seasonal periods shown in the maps in the article do seem to avoid the most popular cruising seasons. It might cause some of the seasonal migration south to begin promptly and avoid a late departure, and pause a bit in the south before the trip north. But not excessively so. So in some ways perhaps much ado about nothing.



2) However, the size of the fines is absurd. $20,000 fines (max fine) is insane. Crushing someone with a $7500 fine (per instance) who is simply unaware isn't a good thing for government to be doing, especially if those fines are imposed for multiple occasions at once before the boater knows what hit him. That crosses over into abusive.

The eighth amendment of the Constitution protects against excessive fines. Methinks this would qualify.

 

[psneeld]

Fine size is a matter of opinion like jury awards " for punishment or change of behavior"......

$20,000 is a minor operating expense to the arrogant well to do boater. Personally I could see a more staggered approach to fines depending on severity and repetition, though I didn't see where the finest were mandatory versus at the recommendation of the investigating agent.

 

[Hippocampus]

Don’t know much above whale biology. As mentioned above some sleep half a brain at a time but think collision avoidance also involves echolocation not just hearing. Believe ships noise disturbs sensory functions of whales. My limited understanding is ship noises are detrimental to whales and maybe disorienting.
Balancing a inconvenience to recreational boaters against lethal events my vote goes to the whales. Balancing a modest increase in fuel and expense diverting commercial shipping again would vote for the whales. My home town beach gets nesting piping plovers. Parts and sometimes the whole beach shuts down. I go there to fly fish for stripers. We also get cows/young feeding especially off our southern shore and have a very active whale watching industry Can’t recall one of those whale watching boats ever hitting a whale.
Seasons overlap for plovers and stripers. Don’t think mynstanding up to my waist fly fishing is going to disturb the birds in the dunes. Especially if I park in the parking lot and walk in. Commonly walk in while in the surf zone to avoid shoreline landowners elsewhere. Plovers aren’t nesting in the water not the parking lot. However get if they let me in they need to let in everyone. Even with the restrictions dogs get a bunch. There’s a leash law (mostly ignored “I have a good dog”) and dogs are forbidden during the season. So think they need to make it black and white. I just suck it up and go elsewhere to fish. That beach is 3/4m from my house with great fishing. Is what it is.

As regards AIS god bless those who can offer a trawler and not the ~$600 to put in a transceiver. Guess you don’t think decreasing the risk of collision is worth it. When in a busy harbor being able to track (and prioritize vessels to watch) lowers everyone’s stress. Especially true in low vision circumstances. Find many of those without transceivers also have inadequate radar reflectors and are poor targets on the screen so more likely to be hit. Some think only of themselves. Some think about others as well.

 

[backinblue]

88 posts in and we mostly agree that saving the whales is the priority. It occured to me to re-read the orignal story that started this thread. Maybe the author is a bit biased, but perhaps reconsider what he is saying. I think he makes a couple valid points that this could be more than an inconvenience and could be very detrimental to the recreational and commercial boating industries. He also makes a great point that boaters are more concerned than anyone with preserving the oceans and their wildlife. We want to be part of the solution and are not the enemy. In that regard, rushing to impose speed limits with heavy fines just to "do something" may not be the best solution.

https://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/podcast/special-report-a-whale-of-a-problem-for-boaters

 

[psneeld]

Why do some here think that experts that have been studying this issue for decades along with involved government agencies came up with this proposal out of the blue or without considering every objection brought up so far?

If looking for answers and not wild as*ed guesses or opinions of right and wrong...I would suggest contacting NOAA/NMFS for some detailed background.

I am spending Mon/Tues with a retired NMFS special agent, I will ask if he stays in touch or knows who is a good contact.