release the nautical masses from nautical terms

[Benthic2]

1.

.....This past summer, a kid pulled away from his families anchored boat and had his painter dragging. I yelled several times that his painter was in the water. He looked at me confused and they proceeded to foul the dinghy prop in the painter.

Ya, I guess that's my fault. Stupid nautical terms. LOL!!!!

I think your example highlights the very exact problem we are talking about. Your attempt to be helful was ineffective because you used the nautical term. If you said "Your bow line is in the water!" you would have actually been more helpful to the kid.


2. The argument listing rigging lines for a sailboat is null and void because there is no non-nautical term for a jib sheet or a main halyard. That is not a case of redundant terms that is just a case of specificity. A halyard is a line. The appropriate parallel is lumber vs 2x4, clothing vs pants, or University vs Oxford.


3. someone mentioned something about ships needing to tie up port side to the dock.....could someone explain this further ?

 

[backinblue]

I agree with all the rope/line comments, good stuff guys and well put! I really don't care if you call it a rope or a line, but once it has a purpose, call it by its proper term.

 

[backinblue]

1.

I think your example highlights the very exact problem we are talking about. Your attempt to be helful was ineffective because you used the nautical term. If you said "Your bow line is in the water!" you would have actually been more helpful to the kid.


2. The argument listing rigging lines for a sailboat is null and void because there is no non-nautical term for a jib sheet or a main halyard. That is not a case of redundant terms that is just a case of specificity. A halyard is a line. The appropriate parallel is lumber vs 2x4, clothing vs pants, or University vs Oxford.


3. someone mentioned something about ships needing to tie up port side to the dock.....could someone explain this further ?

1. I agree with you, no need to use nautical terms if someone doesn't understand them and another term would make for better communication.

2. It's not just sailboat specific. They are still are all ropes or lines. Is a "spring line" on a power boat redundant?

3. In the past, the "left" side of the boat was typically tied to the dock when in port. This may help:

https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/port-starboard.html

 

[eagle419]

Oh yeah. My favorite is the guy...guys, who correct you: "line"everytime you say "rope".


That cordage lying on the deck is a rope until you put it to use then it becomes a painter, a rode, a halyard, sheet or a fall...sometimes even a "line".


Or even a Bell Rope.....

 

[Comodave]

Oh yeah. My favorite is the guy...guys, who correct you: "line"everytime you say "rope".


That cordage lying on the deck is a rope until you put it to use then it becomes a painter, a rode, a halyard, sheet or a fall...sometimes even a "line".


Or even a Bell Rope.....

I was just about to post the bell rope thing.

 

[koliver]

That list will make landlubbers' eyes roll backward! :lol:

I stopped reading after the too PC explanation for "son of a gun". Read Patrick O'Brien for the accurate explanation.

 

[AlaskaProf]

Oh yeah. My favorite is the guy...guys, who correct you: "line"everytime you say "rope".


That cordage lying on the deck is a rope until you put it to use then it becomes a painter, a rode, a halyard, sheet or a fall...sometimes even a "line".

Or even a Bell Rope.....

HAH! Today I learned something! Had to look it up in my Oxford Companion before I'd believe it though. :lol:

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,

Mr A AND those who have ever questioned MY insistence of the word SALOON.


I see NO reference to the word "salon" any where in your nautical link. A salon is an establishment for women to have things done to their hair.

 

[C lectric]

Nautical Terminology came about over years due to goof ups and misunderstandings.

THe terms Port/ Stbd were devised a long time ago. The terms used to be Starboard and Larboard.

In a mad dash or a screaming wind, and not even that, Larboard and Starboard were confused so eventually the term Port was decided upon as it was distinctly different from Starboard. I read the explanation many years ago so found this today, Google.

An article to explain:

https://www.marineinsight.com/naval-architecture/port-and-starboard-sides/


As far as many terms like bathroom vs head or kitchen vs galley they don't really matter although I have tried to use the correct words. But I agree it does not matter in many cases.

But other terms may be costly in misunderstandings if not used or understood correctly.




JMO

 

[eagle419]

Greetings,

Mr A AND those who have ever questioned MY insistence of the word SALOON.


I see NO reference to the word "salon" any where in your nautical link. A salon is an establishment for women to have things done to their hair.



OK RT, I'll help you stir the pot -

My vessel definitely has a saloon, but I wouldn't call a boat like mine a 'trawler'

 

[Gdavid]

Absolutely, my over and out is a clear example. Poor communications. Over means one thing and out means the opposite. There is a good reason for precise language. And Ted’s point about how serious they are about boating, take the time and expend the effort to learn the language.

Over and out is one of my favorite expressions, like saying "you can talk now but I am done listening".

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. e. As per Mr. A's link..."trawler-4. Recreational trawler: a pleasure boat built in the style of a trawler."


Ha ha. I just took away your stirring stick. So there!

 

[eagle419]

Greetings,
Mr. e. As per Mr. A's link..."trawler-4. Recreational trawler: a pleasure boat built in the style of a trawler."


Ha ha. I just took away your stirring stick. So there!


Fair enough RT!

Far be it from me to play with wikipedian folklore.

I'll leave any future stirring in your very capable hands.

 

[BruceK]

"Dictionary

saloon

/səˈluːn/
Learn to pronounce



See definitions in:
all



alcoholic


transportation
noun
noun: saloon; plural noun: saloons; noun: saloon car; plural noun: saloon cars

1. 1.
   a public room or building used for a specified purpose.
   "a billiard saloon"
   • British
     another term for lounge bar.
     noun: saloon bar; plural noun: saloon bars
   • historical•humorous
     a place where alcoholic drinks may be bought and drunk.
   • a large public room for use as a lounge on a ship.
   • British
     a luxurious railway carriage used as a lounge or restaurant or as private accommodation.
     "a dining saloon"
   
   
2. 2.
   British
   a car having a closed body and a closed boot separated from the part in which the driver and passengers sit.
   "a four-door saloon"
   
   
   Origin

early 18th century (in the sense ‘drawing room’): from French salon, from Italian salone ‘large hall’, augmentative of sala ‘hall’.
Tip
Similar-sounding words
saloon is sometimes confused with salon."
----------------------------------------------------------

I was thinking none of my boats has had a saloon, but the definition of a place for consuming alcoholic drinks probably qualifies the "main cabin" as I call it.

 

[Art]

RT - Your chimps say it all! Salon... read their lips!!

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr.BK.



saloon (n.)1728, an Englished or otherwise deformed variant of salon (q.v.), and originally meaning the same, "spacious room set apart for reception of company or artistic display."
The specific sense of "large hall in a public place for entertainment or amusement" is from 1747; especially one on a passenger boat (by 1817); it later was used of railway cars furnished as drawing rooms (1842). The sense of "public bar" developed by 1841 in American English. Saloon-keeper "one who keeps a drinking saloon" is by 1839.





Reference to a boat predates the bar description by 25 years. The word saloon was adopted by bar owners in an attempt to add "class" to what was essentially a pi**-up emporium. Lipstick on a pig.


Mr. A. Read these lips.

 

[Art]

Getten so old you need to hold your arm up to flip somebody off... LOL

 

[Blues]

1) Are nautical terms universal? Are they the same in French or Greek or Korean?

2) Most crewed sail boats have color keyed lines and clutches.

3) Some terms are at best confusing, ie ‘turn to port’, I think in terms of rotate clockwise or counter clockwise, much easier when attempting to back up.

 

[Benthic2]

....1 more generation and the terms "clockwise and counter-clockwise" will be obsolete. Hopefully schools will still be built with analog clocks, but kids just look at their phones. We should probably all be shorting Timex stock.


edit:OMG!! we really should....its at an all time high with a PE of 275!

 

[ksanders]

I stopped reading after the too PC explanation for "son of a gun". Read Patrick O'Brien for the accurate explanation.

Goos post!

I have read every book Patrick O'brien ever wrote including his dictionary of nautical terms.

 

[North Baltic sea]

I see the problem. Most of the nomenclature isn't new and actually predates the USA. A ship's head is a good example.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_(watercraft)

The nautical mile and speed in knots.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nautical_mile

Now I understand that most American boaters use MPH because there to lazy to learn something new. Same reason we haven't adopted the metric system, laziness.

Ted

Hi Ted

a good point to bring up these, all maritime mathematics are based on knot, nautical mile etc.

secondly these terms are older than young america, EU territory no longer any country language is english and yet we have the concepts of starboard and portside concepts maybe with small local variations, but everyone understands their meaning.

knowledge of history and a more in-depth study of the terms teaches that nothing is unnecessary refinement, there is a logical good reason for each term.

for example, the Nautical mile simply and superficially

https://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/science-questions/question79.htm

Starboad and portside history come our Viking age...

STARBOARD AND PORT ( styrbak bord / bak bord )
The name for the right hand side of a ship or boat has its origins in Viking times. They referred to the side of a ship as a ‘board’ and the steering oar was called the ‘star’. The star was placed on the right hand side of the ship, hence starboard. It was because of the practice of steering from the right that the left hand side became port side. Originally it was called ‘larboard’ but was deemed to similar in sound to starboard. Because of the steering oar ships were tied to port by the left hand side hence ‘port-side’.

Smooth waters for everyone

NBs

 

[OldDan1943]

As a professional forester, I had to learn the Latin names (genus and species) for the most of the trees native to north America. There was an advantage when talking to another forester or writing a paper.
Also when taking to a forester from a different country, they may not know the exact tree but they did recognize genus and the traits of that species.

Now, I still maintain Port and Starboard have a real place in the world. Like that Latin names for trees and plants and mammals and and and, Port and Starboard are a "constant".
I have no problem with the 'pointie' end unless you are on or towing a barge. Even then Port and Starboard eliminates all confusion.

 

[psneeld]

Like many things in society...

No need to learn anything...we will just dumb down the world to meet our new low bar.

Some terminology has been around a long time and evolved that way for a reason....sure some things grow obsolete if not around after awhile...like LORAN lingo ..... that's inevitable... use of Lattitude and longitude while not only maritime is still going strong.

Use whatever words you want...but if you are talking to someone with a strong boating background and you aren't using nautical terms when appropriate.....guess what????

 

[Portage_Bay]

Port and Starboard have been well discussed, but I'll throw one more on the heap. As a member of a competitive rowing team I was helping the newbs get acquainted and through their early training. Of course the question of why port and starboard came up. I tried all the logic of right and left being relative to the person not the boat. I was still getting blank stares. So I asked "If I hand you a box of crackers and it's upside down. Then where is the top of the box?" The reply of course was "It's on the bottom". I could see the light bulbs coming on.

Regarding the english language vs nautical terms. Again, a well discussed topic. I do want to note that english is a dynamic and changing language while nautical terminology is much less so. But it does change. I recall as a youngster just starting out getting growled at by the captain I was working for when I called steering the boat driving. Well, now we all use the term driving. Recreational, professional, military we all drive the boat. I'm curious what will we call it when AI takes the helm?

On less important terminology I'm with RT. I have a saloon on my boat. It's where I settle down at the end of a the day for my adult beverage. Single malt neat please and thank you. I'm not getting my hair and nails done.

 

[ssobol]

The toilets on ships where called "heads" because of their location. Since the "head" is not usually located at the head of the ship/boat anymore, why still call it that?

 

[psneeld]

Because of tradition in most of the maritime community I am familiar with.

Though on some USCG Cutters I have been on...can't say for sure but occasionally I thought I saw the label "water closet or WC" above the door.

Between "head" and "water closet"... I will stick with head.

 

[backinblue]

But what's wrong with toilet or bathroom? No concern about confusion of what is meant.

 

[Art]

On less important terminology I'm with RT. I have a saloon on my boat. It's where I settle down at the end of a the day for my adult beverage. Single malt neat please and thank you. I'm not getting my hair and nails done.

Love your "box of crackers" teaching analogy.

Regarding Saloon - vs - Salon: When young [beginning of 1970's] I designed, built, owned 51 percent thereof and ran a large [couple hundred occupancy] Tavern/Restaurant "The Hunter" in Camden ME... ya could surely say - it was often a Rowdy Saloon... catering to Penobscot Bay Lobstermen, Gloucester Mass Fishermen, Maine Woodsmen and area construction workers. - "Those" Were The Days!!

Soooo... regarding pleasure boat nomenclature for the primary "gathering room"... on my boats at least: To save my life and potentially the lives of others; 11/25/1995 I stopped drinking [stopped everything - ciggies too!]. Therefore, I no longer hang out in nor more than extremely occasionally enter any saloon. Thus - My boats have a salon!

 

[Stabi]

The toilets on ships where called "heads" because of their location. Since the "head" is not usually located at the head of the ship/boat anymore, why still call it that?

So why call it a bathroom if there is no bath?

 

[Hippocampus]

As said much of the terms descend from wooden sailing boats. With the steering oar of a double ender on the “right “ side ability to steer was restricted and likelihood of breakage of the oar increased if that side was dock to. Hence the “left “ side was always closest to the port.
Similarly the ten stations still used regardless of material used for construction is derived from the “form” allowing easy and serial construction of wooden boats. Other terms like ceilings, floors, stringers, bulkheads etc. make perfect sense to a wooden boat ships carpenter.
If you have a composting head it’s not a water closet, bathroom or anything else. It’s a head. Similarly with an incinolet or even a bucket. Been on many boats where the head was on one side (maybe with a sink) and the shower on the other.
Been on boats with both settees and couches. A settee is built in and immovable unlike a couch.
A locker has a locking mechanism to prevent its contents from leaving that confined space.
Of interest by convention English is the international maritime language. Much to their dismay even Francophones use English unless talking to a another French speaker. Have listened in to some hilarious vhf conversations between Russians, Koreans and others torturing English. And yes the terms are the same.
Hey “trawler tom “how about a one toot pass?”
Now there’s multiple vessels approaching everyone from bow and stern. Saw crew jump out of the pilot house of trawler tom (he was off our bows) trying to figure out who was calling. It was a large push barge so we called in and told him who it was. So yes confusion still exists.