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Old 10-27-2017, 09:45 PM   #21
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Look, I DO have sympathy for the homeowner, and I can understand his frustration. But he's built on land that is exposed to this anchorage and right or wrong, it's got to be pretty common knowledge that some derelict boats are out there. They're gonna be a problem in a storm.

Of note: if you were part of the contingent who said of Harvey flood victims, "well, if you build in a flood plain you should expect it." then I hope you'll take the same position in this case.

I'm just saying that while this rich architect is pissed, the poor guy who lost his crappy boat is very likely in worse shape. I'm not condoning his lack of insurance and certainly not his leaving town, but I'm empathetic. He probably has few options.
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Old 10-27-2017, 10:07 PM   #22
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Look, I DO have sympathy for the homeowner, and I can understand his frustration. But he's built on land that is exposed to this anchorage and right or wrong, it's got to be pretty common knowledge that some derelict boats are out there. They're gonna be a problem in a storm.

Of note: if you were part of the contingent who said of Harvey flood victims, "well, if you build in a flood plain you should expect it." then I hope you'll take the same position in this case.

I'm just saying that while this rich architect is pissed, the poor guy who lost his crappy boat is very likely in worse shape. I'm not condoning his lack of insurance and certainly not his leaving town, but I'm empathetic. He probably has few options.
So the person who did nothing wrong is the one you're condemning. Oh, and some location information you wouldn't know. His house isn't in an exposed anchoring area. Those boats traveled a pretty good distance. Look at the canal.

I feel bad for the guy who was living on his boat even though I dislike the lack of insurance. I feel somewhat bad for those who handed over their title. I feel less bad for the ones in Spain but at least they've been in contact. I don't feel bad for the other owners who have been totally uncooperative.

I don't see any unreasonable behavior by the home owner. He's given some work to the guy who was on his boat, been friendly with him. He didn't say anything outrageous, no threats, just a problem. He didn't claim it was the world's biggest. The reporter wrote a story, not the homeowner.

By the way, I said nothing negative about the Harvey Flood Victims. I did about the continuing issue Houston has and hasn't addressed. Nothing about the South Texas victims, but do believe they need some better building codes for the future.

Now you point out pretty common derelict boats are out there. I don't know if any are really derelict. Don't have details on the man living on his. The others were anchored and/or moored and unattended. Oh, and I do think Dinner Key has to reexamine their situation. Very exposed and far more damage than other marinas very near. There were many boats not tied adequately, both mooring and in slips. I know marinas that did check all lines and did add lines. I don't know what Dinner Key did, maybe they did it all, and maybe it's just their exposure. Note I said reexamine, not saying they didn't do what they should have.
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Old 10-27-2017, 10:11 PM   #23
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I'm just saying that while this rich architect is pissed, the poor guy who lost his crappy boat is very likely in worse shape. I'm not condoning his lack of insurance and certainly not his leaving town, but I'm empathetic. He probably has few options.
You are empathetic to the guy with the boat but sure don't seem to be toward the architect. This disdain shown toward him by you and some others is something I find very bothersome. Do you resent that he's wealthy in your mind? Do you assume just because he's an architect that spending $50k-100k is nothing? He may have three kids in college he's paying tuition for. He's suffering inconvenience, I wouldn't call it hardship, because of others, not through anything he did.
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Old 10-28-2017, 02:36 AM   #24
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Those without financial resources are unable to fiscally compensate those they harm. In that way, the poor have a freedom over those they harm. Centuries ago, those poor would be become slaves for those they harmed. Has justice progressed?
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Old 10-28-2017, 06:33 AM   #25
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Of note: if you were part of the contingent who said of Harvey flood victims, "well, if you build in a flood plain you should expect it." then I hope you'll take the same position in this case.
Very different situations. The homeowners who built in the flood plain put themselves potentially in harms way from mother nature. The homeowners in this situation didn't create the potential for this situation, the sailboat owners did. If the saiboats hadn't been in the area, the homeowners would have had no problem from them.

If my house is a mile from a small airport, and a private plane crashes into my house while trying to land, is it partly my fault for building a house a mile from the airport?

If the boat was owned by a millionaire from another country, and the house was a 1,500 square foot cottage owned by a retired couple of modest means, would you still feel sorry for the boat owner and not the homeowners? Your net worth doesn't make it your fault or excuse you from responsibilities.

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Old 10-28-2017, 07:23 AM   #26
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This disdain shown toward him by you and some others is something I find very bothersome. Do you resent that he's wealthy in your mind?
I agree 100%. Right and wrong donít depend on the wealth (or lack of it) of the people affected, anymore than their race, gender or any other characteristic. Itís wrong to harm another person and just walk away from it. Certainly oneís financial position can limit what he can do to fix the harm, but it doesnít limit his ability to try.
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Old 10-28-2017, 08:04 AM   #27
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A saga that keeps repeating itself. Hurricanes and aftereffects, risng coastal populations, ever increasing boating activity, more uninsured live aboards, derelict moored boats etc. On a grand scale there is no answer until the problem is understood.

In many parts of the world some chose to build in avalance chutes. There is no second chance. In hurricane country there is a second chance, in fact a booming business is in place for rebuilders and insurers redoubling their efforts to assist in harms way for the next hurricane.

Sure some guy finds a boat on his lawn. It shouldn't be a surprise to any of the affected parties. Sadly for many, a very clear case of history repeating itself.
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Old 10-28-2017, 08:24 AM   #28
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Storm debris when living on the water is a fact of life. In my folks house yard in the keys, there was a large section of roof from our neighbors house, as well as tons of smaller chunks of house from who knows where.

We did not make any effort to identify the source of the debris and make any claims toward the source. Should we force the neighbor to pay for the removal because his roof was not properly secured for the storm?

If a dock washes up should the source be required to remove it? How about a tree from someones yard across the sound?

Storm debris is a fact of life. You clean it up. That these boats are rather large and have owners identified means that they might assist with removal. But if they will not or can not assist, do what it takes to clean things up.

Can't advise on any legal barriers that may exist prior to getting the sawzall and bobcat crew to work.

In the Keys, they set up a program to crane out storm wrecked boat with very minimal fuss. Might be a similar thing in Dade.
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Old 10-28-2017, 08:32 AM   #29
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Old 10-28-2017, 08:49 AM   #30
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I rented dock space to a Cat about 40feet behind my boat. I to,d the cat owner to tie his boat up tighter with stronger lines. He didn’t and his boat did about $20k damage. I to,d him I was getting an estimate to do the repairs. He left last week in the middle of the night. I have no idea wher he went.

No big deal but it’s a life lesson. Trust and befriend dogs, don’t expect much from people. lOL
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Old 10-28-2017, 09:13 AM   #31
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Insurance. This is what it is for and a part of owning a boat. Not prepared for the full cost of owning something then don't buy it. Want to save money and not get insurance then roll the dice. Save your insurance money but put it aside for when you have to accept responsibility for the consequences of losing the bet.

With a boat it is the boat, a place to keep it, running costs, maintenance/upkeep, and... INSURANCE. Don't have money for one of those? Don't buy the boat. I'm WAY on the homeowners side on this one.

As for the "poor rich boy" comments, please. You are just jealous.
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Old 10-28-2017, 09:15 AM   #32
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It's hard to throw blame at someone here, considering this was an act of God and no one really knew exactly what would happen.

But certainly the homeowner had no blame. And I could argue he can protect his property from harm and do whatever he wants to get rid of the boats, and have no liability. He's not improperly moving it, he's protecting his property. Now, it would be prudent to work with the guy trying to move his boat, but the other three? Heck no.

And, unlike a few posts here, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being rich. Try it, you'll like it.
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Old 10-28-2017, 09:25 AM   #33
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It's hard to throw blame at someone here, considering this was an act of God and no one really knew exactly what would happen. .
Act of God in insurance terms maybe, but it should an expected outcome for a smart person who buys coastal property in hurricane country. Like Ski says, have a sawzall, backhoe and Bobcat event afterwards. Then move on hoping lightning doesn't strike twice in your lifetime.
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Old 10-28-2017, 09:36 AM   #34
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Storm debris is a fact of life. You clean it up. That these boats are rather large and have owners identified means that they might assist with removal. But if they will not or can not assist, do what it takes to clean things up.

Can't advise on any legal barriers that may exist prior to getting the sawzall and bobcat crew to work.

.
But that part you can't advise on is what makes this completely different than other storm debris. It's not branches, roofs off houses. It's also an item the owner may consider of real value, not trash. One boat owner indicates he wants to retrieve his boat so you definitely can't dispose of it, a second owner lives on his so you can't and wouldn't dispose of it, a third owner refuses to communicate and he may be the scariest of all but not one you can dispose of, the fourth owner appears to have relinquished his rights to you, but even there you better be sure there is no lien on that boat.

Four boats, all appear to be the same situation, but no two really the same. One is clearly not abandoned, one is abandoned. The other two are very much to be determined still.
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Old 10-28-2017, 09:41 AM   #35
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Send the owners a letter that their rent is $2000.00 per month. It will mount upand then you can take possession.
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Old 10-28-2017, 09:44 AM   #36
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Act of God in insurance terms maybe, .
As a side note, there are boat owners and even insurers perhaps claiming that. I don't know what any of your marine policies say, but ours do not have an act of God clause, not on hull damage, and not on liability. You think about it and it makes sense that if they don't have a storm exclusion then clearly they cover some acts of God. Our policies very clearly cover damage to our boats and to others that occur as a result of so-called acts of God.

The basic policies do exclude acts of war but then we have war coverage added.

The acts of God aspect is referred to far more than it's actually in place. Think about it, if you have windstorm coverage on your house then you're covered for an act of God. If you have flood coverage then for another of them. Acts of God on property are generally excluded only where specifically excluded.
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Old 10-28-2017, 09:48 AM   #37
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I'm far closer to the homeowner's status than the boat owner.
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Old 10-28-2017, 09:55 AM   #38
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The basic policies do exclude acts of war but then we have war coverage added.
Well, you guys have me beat. I don't have any War Coverage. however, if my boat causes somebody damage during a war I am fully prepared to take responsibility. I just hope they don't launch a nuke from it. I may have to just sign over title on that one.
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Old 10-28-2017, 10:20 AM   #39
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Well, you guys have me beat. I don't have any War Coverage. however, if my boat causes somebody damage during a war I am fully prepared to take responsibility. I just hope they don't launch a nuke from it. I may have to just sign over title on that one.
I first became aware of war coverage years ago with company planes where we had it on both the planes and cargo but also on the pilots. I carry it today because I learned that insurers have been known to stretch the definition of war as far as they could, far beyond those events we officially label as wars. That might even include the random action of one man who is from one of the many countries involved in war today.
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Old 10-28-2017, 10:27 AM   #40
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While I feel for the property owner, I guess I don't see how it's different that any other 'act of God.'

If the neighbor's tree falls, in a storm, on your house, car, trailerable boat, then it becomes your problem. This is one of the reasons that we have insurance.

If the damage is caused by someone's negligence, then there is fault. Again, however, this is why we carry our own insurance to protect from this situation as well.

As PR was mentioned early is thread, the situation on the ground is still a royal mess. Most of the islanders (about 80%) still do not have power. A greater immediate health concern is potable water. The official published number is that 75% have water, but that is grossly over-inflated, as this is access to water, not actually having water at their houses. Access means that you can drive your car (if you have one or it still runs) and bring home the water you need. Makes it hard enough to get water from drinking, cooking, and flushing the toilet. Makes it really hard to have enough water to bathe or wash clothes (and remember the storm was more than 5 weeks ago!) Really hard to do if you are elderly or disabled.

In Aguadilla, on the northwest corner of the island where my in-laws live, there is NO electricity, NO running water, and spotty cell-phone service (kudos to AT&T for setting up some mobile cell towers) on the island.

I believe that the situation in the USVI's is equally as bad.

This being on an island thing is hard. One can't just hop into their car or truck and take supplies or drive loved one's home. State-side it is difficult to even send supplies. There currently is no way to send something like a generator unless you have your own plane. Shipment by USPS is also far from normal. The shipping of packages (even priority) takes a minimum of 21 days, if the packages even get there as many are being lost of pilfered.

My wife and I are going down next week for a couple of days to check-up on my in-laws in person. Both are in the mid 80s (he is a Korean war vet). While from a property standpoint they were fortunate there was no major damage (concrete house with concrete roof), we are concerned about their health. We have purchased (2) one-way tickets to bring them state-side for a while (kudos also to Jet Blue who capped all ticket prices from the day after the storm until November 15th!)

Jim
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