Negotiations After Oil Samples

[Diverrob]

Hey everyone!

I’m asking for a friend who is in the final process of buying a boat. He has just got the results back for the transmission oil sample and the mechanic recommended a rebuild/replacement. He wants to move forward with the purchase and do the required repair however wants to re-negotiate the purchase price a little. What would be a fair offer to offset the cost of the repair. I don’t know the price but would guess in around the 5K mark. It’s a 30 year old boat (34’ Catalina sailboat) so asking the seller to cover the entire cost may not be realistic. Would 60% be in the realm of fair? Thanks for your input on this

Rob

 

[firehoser75]

I am not an expert on this subject. However, from what I have read on websites like sbmar.com (Tony Athens, a well respected marine mechanic), relying on a single oil sample is actually "unreliable". You usually need a relatively long history of regular oil samples to 'get the complete' story.
I suggest your friend go to Tony's forum at that website and ask that question posting a copy of the actual oil report. He would get a better answer there most likely. Is it possible that his "mechanic" is looking for a "make work project"or at the minimum over reacting? I have no idea, but just saying, is that possible. Tony would know. There are members here who, if they could see this report, may be able to offer a good opinion as well.
Good luck.

 

[DavidM]

There are fewer variables in a transmission oil sample as there is no combustion gasses. So if the oil sample shows very high iron or copper from bearings particularly with high sodium from seawater intrusion, then I would tend to believe it.

OTOH a transmission is fairly easy to rebuild, maybe $1-2,000 so I think $1,000 off would be fair. Remind the seller that if he doesn't sell to you, he is legally obligated to disclose potential transmission problems to any other potential buyer.

David

 

[Comodave]

I would ask for $2K off the price.

I don’t believe that there are disclosure laws regarding boats. If there is a broker involved then the broker may be required to disclose per their ethics rules.

 

[jleonard]

I would search for a replacement transmission, either new or rebuilt, and use that price as my reduced offer.
I wouldn't mess around with guessing on rebuilding cost. A 30 year old tranny might or might not have parts available.

 

[STB]

Remind the seller that if he doesn't sell to you, he is legally obligated to disclose potential transmission problems to any other potential buyer.

Really? In what jurisdiction(s)? Under what governing law(s), common, Napoleonic, or statute? Or prevailing contractual provision(s)?

Unless something changed, ain't the case in Florida or California. I guess it is the case somewhere else?

 

[Diverrob]

Hope this works, I have attached a screenshot of the transmission oil sample hopefully it’s readable. Thanks for the input so far, my buddy is going to negotiate based on an estimate from the mechanic and then if all agree take the boat this weekend. We may just change, flush all oil and re-sample after some hours to see where the trends are going and knowing that this repair will be needed at some point in the future. The hope is that he will get this summer using it and have the work done in the fall timeframe. Thanks again for the help/opinions

Rob

 

[Diverrob]

Ok so that picture sucks! I will try again with espérât pictures of each section on the report. Best I can do until I get home and on a proper computer.

 

[STB]

To me, that just looks like a gear that has gone too long without an oil change and maybe had a slightly-too-high-rpm shift here or there. If it shifts smoothly and quietly, and isn't leaking get, get what you can get, but I wouldn't sweat it.

Neglecting oil changes on gears isn't too uncommon and there isn't a real filter to clean up the oil.

 

[firehoser75]

To me, that just looks like a gear that has gone too long without an oil change and maybe had a slightly-too-high-rpm shift here or there. If it shifts smoothly and quietly, and isn't leaking get, get what you can get, but I wouldn't sweat it.

Neglecting oil changes on gears isn't too uncommon and there isn't a real filter to clean up the oil.

I agree with this and your (OP) proposed "plan". Change the lube, maybe flush by changing 2 times, and run it for a season and retest. Go from there. Trying to obtain a price reduction is fine if he can get it...... just in case.

 

[mvweebles]

I have to ask, why bother doing an oil analysis if you don't plan to accept thr outcome? If it's only to establish an initial reading, why bother before sale? Most things catastrophic are readily identified as part of the aea trial - running WOT and some relatively fast gear changes will show most major deficiencies.

I'd like to hear from people who bought a boat after a questionable oil sample. My guess is they spent their operating hours with one ear open "honey, did you hear something?"

 

[DavidM]

I agree with the foregoing. Wear definitely with the high iron, copper, tin and lead but no sodium, therefore no sea water.

David

 

[Benthic2]

I would think you would only be expected to renegotiate the sale price if something new was revealed. The buyer knew he was bidding on a 30 year old transmission.....the oil sample says its an old transmission...... nothing worth renegotiating.

 

[roger howell]

Hi,
Remember this is a transmission for an elderly Catalina 34. Engine is probably a Universal diesel connected to a Hurth transmission. No oil cooler, and about a thimble full of ATF for lubrication. When was the oil last changed before the sample, Universal recommends at each engine oil.change. Is there a history of regular maintenance?. Does the box slip, make noise or overheat? If not, change the oil and run the box. Afterall, it is 30 years old, like the rest of the boat, and repair/replacement should be expected.
Good luck,
Roger

 

[BruceK]

Hey everyone!

I’m asking for a friend who is in the final process of buying a boat. He has just got the results back for the transmission oil sample and the mechanic recommended a rebuild/replacement. He wants to move forward with the purchase and do the required repair however wants to re-negotiate the purchase price a little. What would be a fair offer to offset the cost of the repair. I don’t know the price but would guess in around the 5K mark. It’s a 30 year old boat (34’ Catalina sailboat) so asking the seller to cover the entire cost may not be realistic. Would 60% be in the realm of fair? Thanks for your input on this

Rob

It is an older boat, you expect wear and tear, but your friend now knows the gearbox is in trouble. I would place considerable weight on DavidM`s opinions and interpretation of the oil analysis.
He needs an allowance. It can`t be 100% of a reconditioned gearbox, there would include "betterment" with a 30yo boat. An oil change may/ may not help,60% of rebuild replacement sounds fair. In a perfect situation you`d change the oil and run the boat for 50-100 hours and retest, but it`s hardly practical in a sale situation.

 

[SoWhat]

The report clearly recommends change the oil and resample. The report does not state the transmission needs a rebuild. The transmission might need new clutches, it might not. Every oil sample is going to indicate wear consistent with usage during the sample period. There is no single number that mandates overhaul. Even a trend is not conclusive. Slipping clutches are very conclusive. What are the engine hours?

 

[Diverrob]

The engine has around 16-1800hrs from what I was told. A conversation with the mechanic today indicated that his opinion was to change/repair ASAP based on both the oil sample and what he observed during the inspection. During the sea trial I didn’t notice any issues with shifting or slippage but then I was not driving either.

 

[SoWhat]

The engine has around 16-1800hrs from what I was told. A conversation with the mechanic today indicated that his opinion was to change/repair ASAP based on both the oil sample and what he observed during the inspection. During the sea trial I didn’t notice any issues with shifting or slippage but then I was not driving either.

1800 hours would be a decent lifespan for forward clutches. I'm not aware of any hard and fast number. I'm also not aware of any observations that can be made other than grinding noises and shifting behavior. The control valve is easy to pull out and inspect and can give you a sense of overall interior condition but a seller would never allow you to disassemble his transmission.

If you do the removal and reinstall, a clutch/seal rebuild should be around $1K. If water ever entered the transmission and bearing surfaces are shot then expect double to triple the price. Gears are robust and normally don't need replacement. Replace the damper plate if you pull the transmission.

 

[STB]

I have to ask, why bother doing an oil analysis if you don't plan to accept thr outcome? If it's only to establish an initial reading, why bother before sale? Most things catastrophic are readily identified as part of the aea trial - running WOT and some relatively fast gear changes will show most major deficiencies.

I'd like to hear from people who bought a boat after a questionable oil sample. My guess is they spent their operating hours with one ear open "honey, did you hear something?"

Well, I guess it depends how one interprets the results.

To me, this looks like someone did a high RPM shift here or there and never changed the fluid. It looks to me like clutch wear. I wish it didn't happen. But, it happens. The good news is that one canm hear and feel bad clutches if they get really bad.

I feel better seeing this than I would fresh brand-new oil. At the least, this tells me that the coolers aren't leaking. A clean fresh sample would tell me the owner changed the oil very recently, perhaps for the sale, and that I'd learn nothing.

How would I act upon these results? I'd probably change the oil before taking the boat wherever I were going first and then again soon thereafter. Then, before using the boat, I'd get a "clean" oil sample to make sure it was clean, or at least that I had a good reference. Then, after some use, I'd send off another sample to see how things changed.

If the hours since oil change were document, the unit had seen significant use since it was changed, and the wear was consistent with that use, I'd just note when the next change would be do, and move on.

So, how would I act upon a sample like this? If I didn't do it during the sea trial, I'd sea trial again, stand right by the tranny while someone else maneuvered the boat, listen, and feel. If the shifts were smooth, quiet, etc, I'd change the oil until I got it clean.

How would that be different than a situation with documentation of the last oil change, time left before the next change is due, and wear consistent with the hours? Well, in such a case I'd save the oil and analysis for later (and, in all honesty, I don't regularly analyze my tranny fluid).

 

[jleonard]

After looking at the results and after comparing with the sampling from the Velvet Drive gear that was in my 40 Albin, I am going to now say it does NOT look that bad to me.
I would be most concerned about the iron level, HOWEVER that might depend on where/how the sample was obtained.

I know in my case when I originally took a sample I must have been very close or on the magnet that was epoxied to the bottom of the sump (that was not shown in the manual). That showed 3600 ppm of iron! But the tranny was shifting and working fine. I also had low copper, but I took it apart regardless to rebuild it. All the metal parts were fine but the paper clutches were shot and there was corrosion inside on the reverse cylinder wall.

 

[Wdeertz]

On the purchase of my 8 year old boat with 1800 hours that had little use the prior 2-3 years the transmission oil sample came back with high copper. The surveyor attributed the high copper levels to the oil cooler and suggested a double oil change after purchase. I did this and after 2 subsequent samples everything looks good. I agree with the comments a single sample isn’t as useful as looking at a trend.

 

[mvweebles]

This thread resembles a theme that comes up a couple times a year. Someone gets an oil analysis as part of pre-purchase inspection. Comes back with yellow flags which prompts many comments about why one data point should be discarded, often with advice to do additional oil changes, run-time, and repeat the analysis, none of which is practical during a vessel purchase process. And in this case, rhe buyer also hired a mechanic who says rebuild or replace the gear.

I just don't know why anyone would hirie experts and perform lab tests just to discard the results. I know its an inexpensive boat. But replacing a gear isn't cheaper on a $5k boat than on a $50k boat. If rhe buyer wants to absorb most/all the risk and cost, so be it. But to ignore guidance is definitely not a best-practice.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

Depends....sampling and analysis has a few variations. I just did a sample after letting the engine sit with very low hours for much longer than it has since I started sampling.


It was higher in copper and iron than in the past but still only half the average of samples normally form engines with my hours. Research shows that could be perfectly normal and yes the company suggested 20 more hour of operation and retest.


Had it shown yellow or red flags in other areas that are not indicators that increase with sitting, I woud be more worried.


So a sample from a sea trial may not tell everything well, but it will tell a few things for certain that want to be checked out before purchase or included for a price reduction.


So ignoring ( I really think it's consider and take under advisement more than ignoring) some results can make sense, so does doing a sample. A sample taken and tested can be pretty cheap insurance t flag a few issues.... even if not all.

 

[slowgoesit]

We had a high copper content, and a slightly higher lead content in the reduction gear oil sample taken during our survey.

We bought the boat anyway, but we did NOT disregard the sample, rather it made us do more research. Our research (speaking to the owner) and the mechanic who worked on the boat, and checking back on the maintenance records revealed that the reduction gear oil had not been changed for almost 700 hours. Our research (this time with the manufacturer of the reduction gear, as well as a distributor of said gear) revealed that the only copper in the gear was in the friction plates. All of the bearings were steel roller bearings. Plus for the friction plate to be wearing, there would ALSO be high zinc in the oil sample.

Thus the oil sample led us to do MORE research, and that research led us to the oil cooler, which is bronze/copper, with soldered pipes. Hence the copper, and the lead. We pulled the zinc on the cooler, and it was only slightly eroded.

The Seller changed the oil, ran two hours, and resampled. New sample was quite a bit lower, but still higher than normal. Our plan is to change the oil again at 100 hours, and resample, but I honestly don't believe it is indicative of a problem. The manufacturer of the reduction gear agrees.
Moral of the story, DO the samples, DON'T disregard the results, but educate yourself on the issues before deciding on further courses of action.

In the OP's case, I would ask for half the cost of the stated rebuild(including removal and re installation), or $2,500, since the buyer will now accept all risk if there is a problem with the transmission in the future. If the Seller balked, I'd have to do more research.

 

[Diverrob]

Well the seller agreed to a 50/50 split on the 5K estimate to replace the transmission. My friend is now a boat owner and is looking at having the tranny fixed/replaced based on availability of parts (his model has been discontinued). Thanks again for the info/opinions, I love the feedback on this forum!

Rob

 

[cks]

I replaced th3 transmission in my Catalina 34 a few years back. The tranny was about $1K. I did the labor and would estimate the 5 hours to be about 1K in yard charge.
You would be getting a new transmission out of the deal. If I was selling the boat I would split the difference and offer $1K off the sale.
Any more and your friend is pushing the limit of what’s fair.

As the owner of the sailboat I would say “no sale” to $2K off the price.

 

[slowgoesit]

I replaced th3 transmission in my Catalina 34 a few years back. The tranny was about $1K. I did the labor and would estimate the 5 hours to be about 1K in yard charge.
You would be getting a new transmission out of the deal. If I was selling the boat I would split the difference and offer $1K off the sale.
Any more and your friend is pushing the limit of what’s fair.

As the owner of the sailboat I would say “no sale” to $2K off the price.

You might want to read the post prior to yours. The buyer Pushed the Limit, and got $2,500.00 off the sales price! It apparently didn't hurt to ask!

 

[Ski in NC]

I would do nothing toward replacing/rebuilding the box... provided it is working correctly. Just change the oil a few times with a run under load in between.

Oil sample looks about normal for a Hurth 150 that has not had a fluid change in a good while, which is normal for sailboats.

Clutches have Fe, Cu, Pb as facing material. Every shift puts a bit of that in the fluid. Half the sailboat owners out there don't even know there is fluid in the trans!! Much less that it should be changed periodically.

Big thing here is does the trans work properly? If so, change the fluid and enjoy.

 

[slowgoesit]

I agree with the above. Run, resample, change oil, rinse and repeat a few times. You may find that you you don't need to replace/rebuild after all, but at least you're covered partway if you do need to rebuild. Best of luck, and please keep us abreast of what you decide!

 

[Diverrob]

We are bringing the boat back to its new spot today, it’s about a 5hr motor. And we will be certainly paying attention to how it feels during the transit. I will let you know how things go and what my buddy decides to do after it’s all settles in the new slip. Thanks again

Rob