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Old 08-20-2017, 12:28 PM   #21
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For me, I think that in general our expectations have been surpassed in most ways. We too went from sail to power last year.

The boat is really very comfortable. I was expecting it to be more comfortable than my sailboat, but had no idea.

The boat has been as quiet or quieter than I anticipated. Right now running at 1490 rpm, 8 knots (with some help from the current) about 27% load, it is about 50db in the pilothouse. This is lot quieter than our sailboat cockpit running at 6 knots.

I am disappointed with the bed. The mattress isn't very comfortable and I will do something about that this winter most likely.

Storage has been great. We are out for two weeks and will take home lots of uneaten food. Two of us have been on board and we still have 1/2 of our 350 gallons of water after 9 days.

There has been a maintenance disappointment as most will recall from my engine woes. However, that was not an issue with the boat itself and I can't believe how well the engine went.

So all in all, both the boat and our experience with it have met or exceeded our expectations.

Dave
Go visit the guys at Slumbereze in Marysville WA. They make all of the mattresses for Tomco and although our memory foam mattress on Esmeralde is ridiculously heavy, it is simply the most comfortable bed o have ever slept in!
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Old 08-20-2017, 12:34 PM   #22
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Dave
Go visit the guys at Slumbereze in Marysville WA. They make all of the mattresses for Tomco and although our memory foam mattress on Esmeralde is ridiculously heavy, it is simply the most comfortable bed o have ever slept in!
Bruce

https://slumberease.com/
Many great custom mattress companies, typically one or more in every major city. Really sort of dumb to have a disappointing mattress when that is so easily fixed and when it's so critical. If you don't like your mattress, please everyone replace it.
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Old 08-20-2017, 01:20 PM   #23
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My first boat beside the few outboards I owned was a 26 foot custom built sail boat. I had no real expectations as I knew nothing about sailing.

The second sail boat met or exceeded all my expectations and then some. It was a 35 foot steel pilothouse sloop. I singled handed it across the Atlantic from Germany where I bought it. 12 years later an after many thousands of miles under the keel, I sold it to buy a bigger boat. In general my expectation was the (42 foot) bigger boat would be much better. That turned out not to be true for many reasons. I sold the boat after two years and got out of boating for a while. I continued flying and buying and selling aircraft.

I actually thought I was done with boating. But like most addictions I had a relapse and got a small outboard and then a bigger one and another bigger one...lol The current one I own has not fully met my expectations but that has been mostly a function of getting older and less willing to take the high speed banging around.

Now I am thinking to buy a 34 foot trawler and am not 100% sure just what to expect. Not so much about the performance of the boat but how well at my age and health I will be able to manage the boat and the prospect of ever increasing cost associated with owning any boat.

The above is just a tiny bit of my boating experience as I have run boats for other people and commercial boats in the oil field. For better or worse I would not change any of these decisions if I could go back in time.

I never met a boat I did not like!!

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Old 08-20-2017, 01:51 PM   #24
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Dave

Go visit the guys at Slumbereze in Marysville WA. They make all of the mattresses for Tomco and although our memory foam mattress on Esmeralde is ridiculously heavy, it is simply the most comfortable bed o have ever slept in!

Bruce



https://slumberease.com/


Thanks for the tip Bruce.
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Old 08-20-2017, 02:30 PM   #25
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With my Willard I had few supprises.
The biggest was how long it takes to stop when making a landing. No I didn't bang any floats but held onto reverse much longer than expected.

The boat we came from was a 25' Albin Deluxe. Such a wonderful boat was hard to upgrade on. However the Albin was cramped and I'm only 5'10". The Willard is even roomy For tall people. Both are FD but the Albin had a fairly straight run aft so was capable of over hull speed. Cruised at 8.5 knots for two years and them 7.35 after that. Not sure why I changed the speed. May have been related to some harmonic vibration I was never able to fix.

The biggest difference in the two boat was mass. The Albin was only 1/4 the weight of the Willard. The "snap" roll of the Albin was gone as the Willard felt more like a ship. Of course the Willard rolls but it was a much much more comfortable motion. Usta yell at Chris about boat wakes when she was fwd but rarely worth the effort on Willy. It makes a huge difference if I guess the angle of the wake to our boat and frequently the "wake" passes under w almost no movement from same. The weight difference and it's ramifications were plain to see and the hull form and it's numbers were a good indication of what to expect.

Another pair of extremes was the hull vibration on the Albin and the lack of it on the Willard. Spent a lot of time aligning the engine to the Prop shaft on the Albin. Been a long time since I've checked the alignment on Willy and no vibration worth mentioning.

Bruce,
Manufacturers almost always do what's expected and that's not far from what is considered standard. So I'm sure you could easily spend a lot of time and money on sound insulation. That will probably make a world of difference.

Something else to consider is that noise is closly related to work being done. The pressure in the combustion chamber produces a torque pulse that accellerates the flywheel causing the most (generally) engine shaking. Sure there is the # of cylinders, weight of flywheel & crank ect ect. But the torsional vibration is usually the greasest source of vibration and noise. Valves, chains and gears add to it (usually at different frequencies) .. much higher frequencies. The number of cylinders and torsional vibration probably creates the most noise on the boat. But not directly engine noise.

So enter the power pluses and torsional vibration in fairly low frequencies and many hull components can be set in resonance as to to sizes (dimensions) of hull components like a bottom pannel or a bulkhead. Hull components very often act like a tuning fork and "hum" to the engines vibrations. A very simple form of this is engine running and dishes ratteling. The hull components can vibrate at the input frequencies or fractions there-of. Say if the engine puts out 500cps a bulkhead may predominately vibrate at 250cps. A bulkhead may vibrate at The highest vibration (or noise) will be from the input frequency as it's the highest. The noise of hull components can be far in excess of the noises of the engine itself.

If all things are equal and of course they never are w different things a more easily driven hull could reduce noise and vibration considerably. The American Tug is not an efficient hull. It's a big, wide, tall and stable boat and those wonderful things have a price. And of course I'm refering to the power required to drive the boat. Less weight, beam, draft and wetted surface reduces power required. Have you ever ridden in a NT? They appear to be lighter, narrower and smaller w/o being shorter. Thus w the same hull resonance, torsional vibration # of cylinders ect the NT requiring much less power may be considerably quieter. There's so many variables the opposite may be true.

Just some things to think about re noise and vibration.
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Old 08-20-2017, 02:40 PM   #26
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Thanks, Bruce... I just sent a queen size mattress inquiry to https://slumberease.com/
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Old 08-20-2017, 02:56 PM   #27
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Mattress shock and amazement

Wifey B: I never understood retail sales of mattresses. They have these jacked up prices and then sales and then negotiable and sure must be profitable because everyone sells mattresses. Crazy and oh yes we have this one for $600 but really you don't want it because it will destroy your back (then why the heck do you sell it) and you need this one for $3000. And you lay on one and then the next and the next in the store and you know nothing still. Oh and they all have return policies but then if you don't enclose the mattress the day you buy it, a bazillion reasons they won't take the return.

So.....

Well, I sort of like...well we...um...wanted a very large bed for our bedroom in FLL. So, start looking and find custom mattress people and think, omg the prices will be outrageous. Not so. So now then we're super worried that when it arrives, we'll hate how it feels, will be like the one being sold out of the truck on the street corner. But... it's wonderful, marvelous, fantastic. So, custom wonderful is more reasonable than super wonderful but not really in the store?

So, soon, we must have all mattresses like the one we'd gotten in size extra huge, even those on the boat. No wonder everyone wants to sell mattresses.

Look at all the online advertisers for mattresses now too. We actually now have a store that sells name brands of mattresses. I understand. You put all the money the manufacturer spends promoting their brand vs the others then the huge markups they give the stores so they will carry their brand and pretty soon the price has just skyrocketed.

Oh, and then after ordering our custom mattresses from distance, we decide to look in Fort Lauderdale. Dumb us we thought custom was rare. Just in Fort Lauderdale there are at least half a dozen custom mattress companies specializing in mattresses for boats. They are everywhere.

I'm a name brand kind of girl but no more on mattresses. Sorry Serta, Sealy, Simmons, Beautyrest. Sort of heresy as we actually own a store that sells them. However, based on our personal experiences we got the store to sell some private label, locally manufactured, better quality, half the price mattresses.

Just google "Your City Custom Mattresses".

Did that for Fort Lauderdale and got:

Zeno Mattress and Marine Bedding
Comfort Custom Mattresses and Marine Bedding
Boatbeds
Schrader Custom Mattresses for Home, RV, Boat and Marine
Seabeds by Michelle

Now obviously more targeting boats here than most places but custom mattress manufacturers everywhere. Still can go to those like Bruce suggested who have great reputations and shipping doesn't add much, especially to foam.

Call this the enlightenment of Wifey B on mattresses. I use to just know how to use them, not how to buy them.
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Old 08-20-2017, 03:19 PM   #28
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Call this the enlightenment of Wifey B on mattresses. I use to just know how to use them, not how to buy them.
Post of the day!
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Old 08-20-2017, 03:19 PM   #29
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This is a very enlightening and thoughtful thread. Thanks everyone for the contributions.
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Old 08-20-2017, 04:43 PM   #30
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NTA855M Cummins is quiet.
Nice deep burble at the wheelhouse, can easily sleep when on passage even with engine room door open.
Hourly checks are done without ear protection, its simply not that loud.
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Old 08-20-2017, 04:46 PM   #31
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Our boat punched well above her weight - figured for the price asked she would be to far gone but reality is she only had some cosmetic issues.

The only thing we don't like is the leather lounge and dinette seating needing new foam.
Bum gets a bit sore after several hours of lounging.

Bed on board was a standard house sized Queen.
1st thing I did was modify the base to take our newly purchased pillow topped king sized bed which is two singles zipped down the middle.
Incredibly comfortable.
I can roll around and get up during the night without disturbing the wife.
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Old 08-20-2017, 05:52 PM   #32
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My 80-horsepower John Deere works for me... Noticed cracks in the mirror at the foot of the forward berth, adjacent to the anchor-chain locker. Probably due to hitting steep five-foot waves at the eastern end of Suisun Bay.
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Old 08-21-2017, 05:03 AM   #33
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Thanks, Bruce... I just sent a queen size mattress inquiry to https://slumberease.com/
Art, I just noticed where you are located.
I suggested that Dave look at Slumber Ease because they are not too far from him and we had a great experience there.
Like BandB suggested, you would likely find a more local company that worked well for you.
The magic for us was in actually spending time at their showroom and selecting the correct mattress! Take your time and get it right...
It is so worth the effort!
Bruce
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Old 08-21-2017, 05:23 AM   #34
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...

Bruce,
Manufacturers almost always do what's expected and that's not far from what is considered standard. So I'm sure you could easily spend a lot of time and money on sound insulation. That will probably make a world of difference.

Something else to consider is that noise is closly related to work being done. The pressure in the combustion chamber produces a torque pulse that accellerates the flywheel causing the most (generally) engine shaking. Sure there is the # of cylinders, weight of flywheel & crank ect ect. But the torsional vibration is usually the greasest source of vibration and noise. Valves, chains and gears add to it (usually at different frequencies) .. much higher frequencies. The number of cylinders and torsional vibration probably creates the most noise on the boat. But not directly engine noise.

So enter the power pluses and torsional vibration in fairly low frequencies and many hull components can be set in resonance as to to sizes (dimensions) of hull components like a bottom pannel or a bulkhead. Hull components very often act like a tuning fork and "hum" to the engines vibrations. A very simple form of this is engine running and dishes ratteling. The hull components can vibrate at the input frequencies or fractions there-of. Say if the engine puts out 500cps a bulkhead may predominately vibrate at 250cps. A bulkhead may vibrate at The highest vibration (or noise) will be from the input frequency as it's the highest. The noise of hull components can be far in excess of the noises of the engine itself.

If all things are equal and of course they never are w different things a more easily driven hull could reduce noise and vibration considerably. The American Tug is not an efficient hull. It's a big, wide, tall and stable boat and those wonderful things have a price. And of course I'm refering to the power required to drive the boat. Less weight, beam, draft and wetted surface reduces power required. Have you ever ridden in a NT? They appear to be lighter, narrower and smaller w/o being shorter. Thus w the same hull resonance, torsional vibration # of cylinders ect the NT requiring much less power may be considerably quieter. There's so many variables the opposite may be true.

Just some things to think about re noise and vibration.
I am sure that the sound insulation on our boat is some of the best that I have ever seen. They put a lot of thought and effort into the subject.
That is not to say that improvements could not be made but...I don't believe it would be simple.

As to the Nordic Tug being more quiet, I am not too sure. I have seen sea trial numbers and sound measurements on both boats (AT and NT) and they are about the same at various speeds at least for like models of similar specifications.

Now, one thing we did when we ordered our boat was to banish all carpet from the build opting instead for hardwood floors. When you compare sound level measurements for the boats, the carpeted boats are quieter.

Our intent when we purchased the boat was to figure out an appropriate floor covering scheme after we had the boat.i will be interested in seeing if it makes any difference...

Bruce
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Old 08-21-2017, 06:49 AM   #35
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Bruce,
We don't have carpeting either. That's for houses and perhaps yachts. But good point about carpeting.
At what speed do you cruise?
When I think of NT I think of the 32 that has rocker and is narrower. Perhaps the others have a lower aspect ratio as in wider.
I've been aboard boats w "scream'in Jimmies" that were working hard and the boats were relatively quiet. A tour boat out of Juneau comes to mind. Big twin DD's. The only real noise was over the stern railing where I heard one of the most beautiful exhaust noises ever. Wonder if they were twin V12's? A 15 knot boat. 58' I think and steel.

I think you need more and/or better sound insulation. I see you're of the opinion AT has done just about everything possible to control noise. I don't believe they have. If they spent a lot of "extra" on noise abatement they spend that same amount of extra on everything and you'd never be able to afford the boat. Riva comes to mind. I think Hamilton Marine in Seattle specializes in sound attenuation. Look them up. You may need a Riva in sound insulation.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:01 AM   #36
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Art, I just noticed where you are located.
I suggested that Dave look at Slumber Ease because they are not too far from him and we had a great experience there.
Like BandB suggested, you would likely find a more local company that worked well for you.
The magic for us was in actually spending time at their showroom and selecting the correct mattress! Take your time and get it right...
It is so worth the effort!
Bruce
Thanks Bruce. I realize that.

Figured I'd get quote from mattress builder recommended as very good on TF. I requested shipping cost too. Felt maybe they could send small swatch of material offered after Linda and I looked over their selection and thicknesses. We already have a "fairly" comfortable mattress in master stateroom with good upholstery. It is a bit too hard for Linda... I admit it's not too soft! Believe we can get an upholstered foam overlay about 2 to 3 inches thick that makes nighttime rest a bit more comfortable. I'll try to remember to post here if something comes of this.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:03 AM   #37
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Bruce,
We don't have carpeting either. That's for houses and perhaps yachts. But good point about carpeting.
At what speed do you cruise?
When I think of NT I think of the 32 that has rocker and is narrower. Perhaps the others have a lower aspect ratio as in wider.
I've been aboard boats w "scream'in Jimmies" that were working hard and the boats were relatively quiet. A tour boat out of Juneau comes to mind. Big twin DD's. The only real noise was over the stern railing where I heard one of the most beautiful exhaust noises ever. Wonder if they were twin V12's? A 15 knot boat. 58' I think and steel.

I think you need more and/or better sound insulation. I see you're of the opinion AT has done just about everything possible to control noise. I don't believe they have. If they spent a lot of "extra" on noise abatement they spend that same amount of extra on everything and you'd never be able to afford the boat. Riva comes to mind. I think Hamilton Marine in Seattle specializes in sound attenuation. Look them up. You may need a Riva in sound insulation.
OK,

For the mental exercise I will look at Hamilton as you suggest.
Our boat is quiet at 3 through about 8 or 9 knots. It is when you push it that it becomes loud. We can hit 19 plus knots and it is when pushed that it becomes loud. Even opening a window at speeds above about 8 knots adds a lot of noise!
Here are some engine room pictures.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:13 AM   #38
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By the way, I can't find anything on Hamilton marine in Seattle...
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:24 AM   #39
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No boat is perfect. Thus our boats name "Almost Perfect" is an accurate description, and the reason we decided to keep the name.

Yes, there are things that need to be changed/modified/fixed. Some are mistakes made by the builder, and some are errors made by boatyards after the boat was delivered. But because we have some experience with other Kadey-Krogens, we anticipated that there would be a few minor problems.

However the boat is very smooth, very quiet, and very comfortable for both the Captain and the Admiral. Regardless of price, I can't think of another boat I would rather have. It will probably be the last boat I will ever own.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:39 AM   #40
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Bruce, Eric - Regarding boat operation noise


Throughout all of boat interior's sole We have resilient 5/8" thick under carpet sound deadener insulation material with thick, high grade Berber carpet atop. In areas such as salon center floor, entry door, galley at sink/stove and in master bed room we have nice throw rugs of different sizes/designs/colors Makes for good look, easy vacuuming, removal for cleaning and comfortable walking in bare feet... as well... this carpet arrangement makes fantastic noise modifier.

Double hatches are on salon floor that open up a non restricted 5'6" x 5'6" area with center walk step-down platform for easy access to engines, fuel tanks, house bank, gen set and trim tabs' hydraulic reservoir... as well as somewhat cramped access to transmissions, holding tank, batt charger, a Lectra San and a few incidentals. Both hatches have insulation underneath and are attached by piano hinges. Both are covered over their hinges with the under carpet sound deadener and Berber; the other three edges of each have metal trim. The hatches are so tightly fit together that to open or close they must both move in unison or else they will get bound up.

With hatches closed propulsion or gen set noise is considerably muffled. With hatches open the noise is pretty loud. I believe that operational noise reduction of engines and water rush on hull bottom has a lot to do with under sole and top of sole sound absorbing insulation.
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