Engine Personalities

[Ben]

The OP didn't specifically state main propulsion, vessel size or cruising parameters. For smaller displacement hull vessels, the Kabota does a very good job. You may know them better as Beta Marine and some of the Westerbeke models. You will also find them as generator engines for Onan and Phasor among others.



As for kabota over Lehman, really doubt you would see them in the same boat model as one or the other. Lehman falls on my second rating as an old design and most being extremely old with many in the high hours category. Certainly places to get parts and have them rebuilt do exist, but given a choice between a 6 cylinder Lehman or a 6 cylinder non turbo B Cummins, IMO, it's not even close. I would also take the 6BT 210 HP Cummins over the Lehman.



Regarding Volvo, I have been "Date Raped" by them and we won't be going out together ever again. They cost me thousands of dollars in lost business revenue in the '90s with injector pump problems on brand new engines. They were too busy pushing new engines out the door to have replacement pumps available for their warranty claims. They made a conscious decision to focus parts on new builds versus taking care of 6 month old engines. While their parts are ridiculously expensive, there USA inventory is meager on less common parts, and their support on legacy engines can be poor, their warranty parts support was inexcusable. Fock them!



Ted

This is what I’m driving now.

I am the OP. Look above posts. I want fuel economy, comfort, and range. Don’t mind 8 knots. I have 28 knots now but the cabin is tight. Isn’t Kabota mostly in sailboats?

I’m looking 80s/90s trawlers that feel homey inside.

Avoiding Volvos. But see many boats (Jefferson 42 for example) with Cummins straight 6s. Have had Lehman before (135 straight 6) and like them. Very curious about Cummins and Perkins.

 

[O C Diver]

Hi Ben,

Yes, you would be unlikely to see marinized Kubotas in what you're likely looking for. Have seen a few in smaller trawlers as a repower choice. In the upper 30s through the 40s, kubota wouldn't have enough HP.

Ted

 

[John R M]

In my preliminary research for a Grand Banks 42, I've seen older models with Ammarine engines. I understand these are marinized John Deere's, but that some of the non JD parts may be hard to find. Should boats with these engines be avoided?

Many mid 80's models of GB 42s have Cat engines and some people have commented that these can be noisy and their larger size makes them more difficult to service. Am I out to lunch by discounting these too?

 

[O C Diver]

In my preliminary research for a Grand Banks 42, I've seen older models with Ammarine engines. I understand these are marinized John Deere's, but that some of the non JD parts may be hard to find. Should boats with these engines be avoided?

Many mid 80's models of GB 42s have Cat engines and some people have commented that these can be noisy and their larger size makes them more difficult to service. Am I out to lunch by discounting these too?

You really need to focus on engine model numbers. Cat has had a dog or 2 that had a short production life. Knowing model number and HP ratings will get you more focused opinions.

I'm of no help on the Ammarine engines.

Ted

 

[sunchaser]

As mentioned by others, on older boats ongoing maintenance trumps the engine color. Then design changes within the brand enter into the discussion.

One thing not often mentioned in TF engine discussions are Perkins Sabres. I have two PS 225TIs which when painted yellow are the Cat 3056. About 20 years ago Perkins tossed out the antiquated cooling designs and devised a new setup dubbed the Sabre. The Perkins Sabre 4s and 6s, both NA and forced air, were based upon over a million industrial engines built during the past two decades.

As demonstrated by millions of older design Perkins engines built during the 80s and 90s, base engine reliability has been outstanding for over half a century. Parts are everywhere provided one knows how to shop.

As always, there is no free lunch when it comes to marine engine reliability. The best of engines will perform miserably if left untended. On a 30 or 40 year old boat with multiple owners and unknown operating conditions, no telling what lurks for a new to diesels owner. A sea trial reveals only so much.

 

[John R M]

You really need to focus on engine model numbers. Cat has had a dog or 2 that had a short production life. Knowing model number and HP ratings will get you more focused opinions.

I'm of no help on the Ammarine engines.

Ted

Most seem to be Cat 3208, in one case 320 HP.

 

[Codger2]

One thing not often mentioned in TF engine discussions are Perkins Sabres.

In 1995, I bought my first "big boat" and it had a pair of Perkins engines. Not knowing one damn thing about bigger boats and diesels, my wife & I went about improving the cosmetics of our (new to us) Off Shore 48' Yacht Fisher. We ran everywhere at 10 knots and put quite a few hours on the boat before selling it a few years later.
After settling in on our first OA 42 & reminiscing about the Off Shore, it dawned on me that we never had one bit of trouble on those (oft neglected) Perkins engines. What I remember most was that they were green, very quiet & ran like a Swiss sewing machines!"

 

[tiltrider1]

In my preliminary research for a Grand Banks 42, I've seen older models with Ammarine engines. I understand these are marinized John Deere's, but that some of the non JD parts may be hard to find. Should boats with these engines be avoided?

Many mid 80's models of GB 42s have Cat engines and some people have commented that these can be noisy and their larger size makes them more difficult to service. Am I out to lunch by discounting these too?

If you are looking at a GB 42 with twin 3208’s, you are looking at a boat that is going to easily cruise at 20kts. Those are big engines for a 42’, engine room will be tight. Obviously a GB 42 with twin 3208’s is prioritizing speed and reliability. I would not call the 3208 noisy but they are certainly going to make more noise than a smaller diesel.

 

[slowgoesit]

Nothing runs like a Deere!

Based on their tractor engines, will run forever if well maintained. And you will find parts easily.

From my FIL, a long time farmer. You forgot to include the REST of the quote . . .


Nothing runs like a Deere! Or smells like a John!

 

[FF]

"what make Volvo engine worst then others?"

Volvo builds some OK engines and if Volvo built them parts may be expensive but can be had , even for old ones. Dealers stock few repair parts , they get ordered , and you pay the shipping.

Volvo marinizes some engines built by others.

These get the bad rep for few parts available, as soon as there is a new & different model.

Just my take,

Kubota is a good choice,

Marinized Kubota Diesel Engines Ranging from 14HP to 105HP

 

[FlyWright]

If you are looking at a GB 42 with twin 3208’s, you are looking at a boat that is going to easily cruise at 20kts. Those are big engines for a 42’, engine room will be tight. Obviously a GB 42 with twin 3208’s is prioritizing speed and reliability. I would not call the 3208 noisy but they are certainly going to make more noise than a smaller diesel.

As another data point, my friend's GB42 with 3208 naturals (210HP?) has a WOT speed of ~12K and cruises at ~9 kts. Not all 3208s are equal HP.

 

[tiltrider1]

As another data point, my friend's GB42 with 3208 naturals (210HP?) has a WOT speed of ~12K and cruises at ~9 kts. Not all 3208s are equal HP.

Your point is valid. Your friends boat sounds heavy. 420hp should of done better than 12k. However, if you weren’t prioritizing for speed I don’t know why you would stick twin 3208’s in a GB42. Unless we are talking an early 70’s boat before they could get bigger hp out of the engines.

 

[O C Diver]

I'm not well versed on the different HP ratings of 3208s. The high HP one(s) don't seem to have as good a life expectancy and reputation, especially if pushed hard most of the time.

Having helped my buddy with his twin 3208s, because they're a V engine, they occupy a lot of space in his engine room. Not fun getting to the outboard side of his engines. I wouldn't rule them out, but would view the outboard accessibility before falling in love with the boat.

Ted

 

[koliver]

You all are scaring me about Volvo. I already had a built up prejudice (have been reading here for years), but some of the boats I've been looking at come with Volvo's TAMD41-PA engines. Initially, I wrote them off.

But some of the cleanest examples had these engines, so I did some more research. Even though I wanted to hate them, really, I couldn't find a lot of complaints from people who had them (this specific model). Sure, some parts are expensive, but it seems there are alternatives for a number of them. I didn't read about anyone having a long wait for parts (not saying you didn't though).

So is this based on past history? Other models? Or is the TAMD41-PA one to stay away from just because it's a Volvo?

(I do get avoiding some engines; I really liked a Grand Banks with a pair of British Leylands, but although they sounded like good engines, parts are very hard to find in the US anymore. If I already had the boat, there are some places that stockpile old parts from torn down engines, but it wasn't something I was going to buy on purpose now.)

Frosty:

I have TAMD41s, These were OE in many locally made commercial boats, water taxis, crew boats, pleasure boats. Dependability required. When I have needed parts, I have never had to wait, though with their dependibility, parts are seldom required.

to the OP:
In your price and size range, you will be finding boats with 30 to 45 yr old engines, unless they have been re-powered. Most manufacturers of those engines will have moved on to newer models, so their stock of part for older engines may not be as good as if you were seeking parts for their newer models. Check with your local shop when you find the boat you want, to see what to expect for the engines it comes with.
Whatever you do, don't take to heart anything you read here.

 

[FlyWright]

Your point is valid. Your friends boat sounds heavy. 420hp should of done better than 12k. However, if you weren’t prioritizing for speed I don’t know why you would stick twin 3208’s in a GB42. Unless we are talking an early 70’s boat before they could get bigger hp out of the engines.

It is a tight ER but I think that HP gives him a nice middle of the road cruise...not on plane but faster than many of us other "trawlers" without the hassle and expense of turbos. It's a bristol 1986 owned by a TFer friend of mine who shall remain nameless.

 

[Slowmo]

Engines in boats are affected by the 'Ford vs Chevy' problem. Also one person's experience is just that, a single data point, so it can be difficult to separate opinion from fact. There are a few critical things which are more factual than opinion.
> Maintenance record of the specific engines. Well maintained engines last longer.
> Duty cycle. Engines that always run 'balls out' will wear out faster. However, the opposite can be true, hours of constant speed and relatively light load can also be a problem. Most diesels should be 'run up' to close to rated power regularly.
> Parts availability: Caterpillar is known for their support of obsolete equipment, I've bought parts for a 60YO D4 dozer for example. They have a global parts supply network second to no one. One of the knocks on Volvo is that parts, at least in the US, for some of their older engines are hard to get.
> Cost of parts. Yes you can buy old Cat parts but at a price. I think that's why people like Leymans, parts are pretty cheap. Ditto Cummins, the B series Cummins is the Dodge pickup engine so there are millions of them out there.
> What intersects with this is how common the engine is in marine use. The more used an engine is the more likely that there will be good parts supply, if not from the OEM then aftermarket. I learned this about my Cat 3208Ns. There is a good supply of aftermarket parts like exhaust risers that are far less expensive than the OEM because they were a common marine engine. The opposite is true of the Hinos used by Bayliner. Hino are great engines (for those who don't know Hino is Toyota) but their use in Yachts was limited. I'm only aware of Bayliner using them. Ford Leyman on the other hand was used by everyone, so lots of parts.

I'd avoid generalization like 'this is a high speed engine' versus that is a trawler engine. Generally that's a function of HP. Caterillar 3208Ns max out at 2800RPM and 210hp. They were common in commercial fish boats, hardly high speed. The 425hp 3208TA was used in faster boats (like those pushing their Grand Banks up on to a plane). 2T DDCs were considered high speed because they had high power density, but they were ALSO the most common diesel engine in fish boats for years (6-71 was the most used marine diesel for a generation). They were cheap and easy to maintain. Ignore labels like 'throwaway' engines, really doesn't mean much. All engines can be rebuilt, all are throwaway at some point as well. The reality is a well maintained diesel in a boat has a huge lifespan. My mechanic said he was personally aware of Cats in commercial boats regularly going over 20,000 hrs.

One thing to be aware of is that pre-emission control diesels are much smokier than newer engines. I will spare the details but combustion chamber and piston design changed dramatically in the mid 1990's to reduce particulate emissions (visible smoke). In the 2000's engines moved from mechanical to common rail electronic injection which both further reduced emissions and often allowed quieter engines (multiple injection events). So if you're bothered by smoke on cold start look for a boat with newer engines.

 

[Frosty]

koliver,

Thanks for your perspective on your Volvo TAMD41-P. I found that I was nixing boat after boat with well-maintained clean ones. I was starting to re-consider based on some internet reading (positive mentions) when this thread came along and crushed my tender new (green) shoots of hope.

I'm leaning toward putting those boats back in the pool now.

 

[menzies]

I surveyed a boat with Cummins 6BT 5.9 engines. During my research I read that to change out the raw water pump on these you have to disconnect an engine mount and Jack up the engine slightly.

Any truth to this?

 

[Ken E.]

koliver,

Thanks for your perspective on your Volvo TAMD41-P. I found that I was nixing boat after boat with well-maintained clean ones. I was starting to re-consider based on some internet reading (positive mentions) when this thread came along and crushed my tender new (green) shoots of hope.

I'm leaning toward putting those boats back in the pool now.

Further to Keith's Volvo comments, in the 1980's and '90's, most of the Bristol Bay AK salmon boats used Volvo and the owners loved them for being able to take heavy, continual usage. Two friends had these engines and swore by them. On the flip side, though, you should still be concerned about Volvo parts availability and cost.

 

[FoxtrotCharlie]

When we bought our boat I was looking for 'simple' engines'. Diesel, na, manual fuel injection, no turbos or computers. The boat we found and my wife loved, happened to have FL 135's. They have been great so far. Easy to work on - replaced raw water pumps on both....You can't rob a bank and use our boat as a getta way vehicle, but 8-10 mph suits us just fine.

 

[caltexflanc]

You can still do a complete "zero hour" overhaul of older Detroits, in the boat, at reasonable cost by a professional at around 3-4k per cylinder. Parts readily available. I would buy another boat with DD's in it without a moment's hesitation, given a properly done survey.

 

[O C Diver]

I surveyed a boat with Cummins 6BT 5.9 engines. During my research I read that to change out the raw water pump on these you have to disconnect an engine mount and Jack up the engine slightly.

Any truth to this?

Not on my Bruno and Stillman, but I guess it could be true on a different boat manufacturer's stringers and engine isolators.

Ted

 

[Codger2]

Not on my Bruno and Stillman, but I guess it could be true on a different boat manufacturer's stringers and engine isolators.

Not true on my ex Halvorsen 32 Gourmet Cruiser either.

 

[menzies]

Did another quick Google.

This from MVDirona:

https://mvdirona.com/TechnicalArticles/ChangingRawWaterPump.htm

And this.

https://www.sbmar.com/articles/dealing-with-the-seawater-pump-on-a-cummins-marine-6bta-5-9/

 

[O C Diver]

Did another quick Google.

This from MVDirona:

https://mvdirona.com/TechnicalArticles/ChangingRawWaterPump.htm

And this.

https://www.sbmar.com/articles/dealing-with-the-seawater-pump-on-a-cummins-marine-6bta-5-9/

That's not what you asked!
You asked about an issue with a water pump on a Cummins 6BT. The 2 links you have are for a Cummins 6BTA. The "A" is After cooled, has a different plumbing configuration and a different water pump. Further, some of the "A" motors (250 HP I believe) are freshwater after cooled, and higher HP models such as in your links, are raw water after cooled.

Ted

 

[menzies]

My bad. I need to go back to that survey and see what they were. Probably A's as that is what I was researching.

Edit: yep, from the survey.

The main engines are Cummins, model 6BTA, which are
inline six cylinders, turbocharged and after-cooled four-cycle
marine diesel engines. The engines are rated at 370 horsepower @
2,800 rpm.

But still, designing a marine engine where you have to disconnect a mount and lift it to change out a pump seems rather strange, especially if needed at sea.

 

[smitty477]

My bad. I need to go back to that survey and see what they were. Probably A's as that is what I was researching.

Edit: yep, from the survey.

The main engines are Cummins, model 6BTA, which are
inline six cylinders, turbocharged and after-cooled four-cycle
marine diesel engines. The engines are rated at 370 horsepower @
2,800 rpm.

But still, designing a marine engine where you have to disconnect a mount and lift it to change out a pump seems rather strange, especially if needed at sea.

"But still, designing a marine engine where you have to disconnect a mount and lift it to change out a pump seems rather strange, especially if needed at sea."
Especially considering the stock raw water pumps are problematic.

"The engines are rated at 370 horsepower @
2,800 rpm."
FWIW - I believe the 370's were rated at 3,000 and the 330's were rated at 2,800.

 

[DNT99611]

Further to Keith's Volvo comments, in the 1980's and '90's, most of the Bristol Bay AK salmon boats used Volvo and the owners loved them for being able to take heavy, continual usage. Two friends had these engines and swore by them. On the flip side, though, you should still be concerned about Volvo parts availability and cost.

A big part of the Volvo love at that time was service. There was an outstanding mechanic in Dillingham that kept a ton of parts on hand for the 70 series engines that many were running. He had the ability to build a complete engine on the spot if needed. Those guys are few and far between. My recent experience with Volvo have led me to say never again.

 

[FlyWright]

I surveyed a boat with Cummins 6BT 5.9 engines. During my research I read that to change out the raw water pump on these you have to disconnect an engine mount and Jack up the engine slightly.

Any truth to this?

What year and model boat was this?

 

[syjos]

In the 80's and 90's, Alaska Diesel Electric was the Volvo Marine distributor for Alaska and Washington serving mostly the commercial market. They sold a lot of diesel and gas Volvos and parts availability was excellent.

ADE phased out Volvo when they started manufacturing Lugger and Northern Lights.

The company is now called Northern Lights since Lugger ceased production. They market Yanmar diesels for propulsion.