Boat Service Protocol

[debbiet]

I worked my way through college via my job at a full-service gas station. So I'm familiar with car guys and how they roll.

But boat guys? I'm stumped.

I got two estimates for work I wanted done on my boat. One guy inspected the boat, the other didn't. Neither estimate included labor.

I found a third business online and messaged him. I should say that all 3 of these parties were listed as resellers / sales & service by the manufacturer...so this guy responds that he'd love to do the work. Then tells me I should go look at the equipment at Company X...which is one of the companies from which I'd gotten an estimate.

So now I'm guessing that Company X would probably sub the install to this guy OR he was going to acquire the equipment from Company X and mark it up. Personally I don't care. I can't go forward with the work w/o knowing HOW MUCH IT'S GONNA COST!

At this point the Guy hasn't emailed me back...I'm trying to figure out whether to tell Company X that I'd been in touch with him, and ask if they were planning to sub to him. Or whether I should give him the proposal from Company X (the prices are fine) and let him be the primary contractor. Or whether I should just ask him for the labor proposal and hope that Company X got the parts right.

Why do I feel like I did something wrong?

 

[GregBrannon]

Welcome! I don't think I've seen your name before, but I see you've been around a while.

Why do you think you did something wrong? Can you give us an idea what the job is?

Most who make their living repairing boats are very busy, and my experience is that the good ones don't spend a lot of time responding to 'casual' queries for estimates. The one guy may have sent you somewhere else, because he doesn't like dealing with the paperwork or boat owners, or just prefers to be insulated from the customer. Depending on the job, an estimate without seeing the job would be questionable.

Don't give up. Someone here will have wiser words to offer than I have.

Greg

 

[Woodland Hills]

What exactly was the work that you needed and in what part of the country is the boat?

 

[DavidM]

You are going to spend about $100 per hour for labor, no matter how many hours it takes. It is much, much more important to have a good mechanic than save a few bucks an hour on labor. So don't worry about labor rates, talk about skills.

Shops are going to mark up any parts they buy. You could ask how much but frankly I wouldn't bother. Some will mark up 15%, some 25%. The more important issue is to replace only the parts that are needed, so go back to the paragraph above. The skill of the mechanic is all important, so he doesn't replace unnecessary parts.

How do you find that skilled mechanic. I really don't know other than talking to friends who have used them.

I do almost all of my own work. But for the stuff I can't do I talk with the mechanic about the job, and come to an agreement about exactly what needs to be done, what parts to be replaced, not how much it will cost.


David

 

[markpierce]

My mechanic is retiring in several weeks. Hope the boatyard gets a good one to replace him.

 

[johnma]

I would first go online to look at reviews on the companies you are looking at. Also, the lowest price is often the most expensive in the long run. I would much rather have my work done at a shop that pays their mechanics well than one that doesn't and has personnel changes every month or so.
Also you have yet to say what type of work you are looking to have done.
John

 

[firehoser75]

If you are looking for a mechanic recommendation, PM me and I will contact good friends from Seattle to get you some names (suggestions).
As far as the labour, you can ask for a rough time estimate. Most mechanics should be able to give you a "ball park" time estimate barring any unforeseen problems.
Good luck,

 

[BandB]

We all do things differently, but here are my suggestions.

First, I'd do it in person, face to face, so they could see I was serious and I could read them. I'd ask for a written estimate, parts and labor.

If they didn't see my boat, I'd have photos for them, but without labor, I'd not select them.

I would also be sure their quote, which becomes the contract includes a clause as to running more, requiring them to get approval in advance of anything running more than 10% above the quote.

 

[O C Diver]

I agree with BandB, but would also need to go further. I need a written explanation of all aspects of the warranty, parts and labor. Buying product from one to be installed by another is a recipe for disaster if there is a problem. It would be my preference to deal with one company whether they sub out the labor or not. I need them completely responsible for all aspects of the job.

Ted

 

[Portage_Bay]

I recently retired from the work boat world and am still adjusting to the recreational boat world. So many things are different. But one concept I'd adhere to is the entire job should be done by one source. The yard you contact with supplies all the parts, labor etc. Even if they sub anything out they are responsible for all of it. As soon as you "mix and match" you take the responsibility to deal with any issues. Any warranty problems. Anything

 

[Comodave]

I recently retired from the work boat world and am still adjusting to the recreational boat world. So many things are different. But one concept I'd adhere to is the entire job should be done by one source. The yard you contact with supplies all the parts, labor etc. Even if they sub anything out they are responsible for all of it. As soon as you "mix and match" you take the responsibility to deal with any issues. Any warranty problems. Anything

I agree so I contract it to myself and that idiot is responsible for it...

 

[debbiet]

Thanks all for the responses. I was looking for some upgrades to our electronics. So we researched vendors (like for over a year), went to the manufacturer web site and selected companies listed as "sales, service, installation". I spoke with two of them, and both gave me the estimates without labor.

This threw me because I'm used to working with shipyards that provide a complete estimate. I asked the both for labor. One hasn't responded and the other said "we don't quote labor but probably somewhere around XXXX". So it's clear they sub it out, ok fine but...

So I went to a third source and what floored me was they said they could do the job and I could look at the electronics at one of the other companies I'd spoken with - in essence someone [I thought] was a competitor. I flat-out told him I had a proposal from them already.

I'm in full agreement with all statements about warranty, a single throat to choke, etc. I will say that it's very difficult to get feedback on these guys, Yelp and Angie's List don't have much on maritime so all I can do is word of mouth and checking the BBB. I live in Seattle so there are many marine service companies / individuals out here and it can be overwhelming

I think I'll just move on to other providers and demand that their proposals include labor. I've never done it any other way and not gonna start now.

 

[STB]

Why move on to other providers? Just thank them for the equipment quote and ask If they can give a labor quote, coming to the boat as needed.

As for the person who gave the labor quote, if they are reputable, you've already got one option...you've got the labor quote from that provider and the hardware quote from the other.

Good boat people are really busy...and time working is money...time giving quotes isnt.

You could ask If they can come out for an hour or two on the clock, figure out what needs to be done, and explain, the options, plan, and estimate to you. Then, you'll learn a bunch and get what you need -- and the provider will get paid.

Quotting car jobs is cookie cutter and almost free to all involved. Good boat estimates require travel time, time investigating the present situation, and time planning. Time ain't free!

 

[AlanT]

Thanks all for the responses. I was looking for some upgrades to our electronics. So we researched vendors (like for over a year), went to the manufacturer web site and selected companies listed as "sales, service, installation". I spoke with two of them, and both gave me the estimates without labor.

This threw me because I'm used to working with shipyards that provide a complete estimate. I asked the both for labor. One hasn't responded and the other said "we don't quote labor but probably somewhere around XXXX". So it's clear they sub it out, ok fine but...

So I went to a third source and what floored me was they said they could do the job and I could look at the electronics at one of the other companies I'd spoken with - in essence someone [I thought] was a competitor. I flat-out told him I had a proposal from them already.

I'm in full agreement with all statements about warranty, a single throat to choke, etc. I will say that it's very difficult to get feedback on these guys, Yelp and Angie's List don't have much on maritime so all I can do is word of mouth and checking the BBB. I live in Seattle so there are many marine service companies / individuals out here and it can be overwhelming

I think I'll just move on to other providers and demand that their proposals include labor. I've never done it any other way and not gonna start now.

I have an extremely thorough, honest electronics guy in Seattle. PM me if you are interested but don't mess him around. He will account for every wingnut and 18ga cable run and cable tie on his installation, he wont care if you want to buy the electronics yourself if you can get it cheaper then he (of course then you have responsibility for any warranty issues - but its your choice). You will be happy and proud and his labor charge per hour is competitive. He has installed for me: AGM house batteries and ancillaries/monitoring; Inverter and remote with cooling; Chartplotter and NMEA hubs; ~Alan

 

[debbiet]

Why move on to other providers? Just thank them for the equipment quote and ask If they can give a labor quote, coming to the boat as needed.

As for the person who gave the labor quote, if they are reputable, you've already got one option...you've got the labor quote from that provider and the hardware quote from the other.

Good boat people are really busy...and time working is money...time giving quotes isnt.

You could ask If they can come out for an hour or two on the clock, figure out what needs to be done, and explain, the options, plan, and estimate to you. Then, you'll learn a bunch and get what you need -- and the provider will get paid.

Quotting car jobs is cookie cutter and almost free to all involved. Good boat estimates require travel time, time investigating the present situation, and time planning. Time ain't free!

Yup I get it! One of them actually came to the boat and we went through it and discussed the installation and what we'd need. That's the one that still hasn't provided labor.

Time is money absolutely. I'm the easiest customer anyone could have. I'm willing to wait, never in a hurry and just want the job done right for a reasonable price. We have been skunked in the past.

The source of my confusion was really that these companies supposedly provide installation, which implies labor...I won't make a buying decision without knowing the cost.

Anyway this too shall pass.

 

[slowgoesit]

My mechanic is retiring in several weeks. Hope the boatyard gets a good one to replace him.

He may still be willing to take on small projects on a freelance basis! Ask him, you may be surprised.

 

[slowgoesit]

The source of my confusion was really that these companies supposedly provide installation, which implies labor...I won't make a buying decision without knowing the cost.
Anyway this too shall pass.

Yep, that's too much like handing them a blank check at the start of the work! If a company can't give me an estimate, or at least a RANGE of labor costs, than it sounds like they don't know what they are doing . . . or it is the first time doing that type of job . . . either way, someone to avoid for sure.

 

[Codger2]

Why do I feel like I did something wrong?

I don't think that you did anything wrong other than to expect a mechanic to quote you on an "unknown."
To arrive at a labor cost on anything other than the simplest installations is almost impossible! My process for the past 20 years has been: I buy the parts and my mechanic quotes me his hourly rate. That way I don't get ripped off on the cost of parts and my mechanic doesn't lose money because he underestimated the labor time required. Good mechanics are very hard to find. It's taken me quite a few years to find "that mechanic" but now that I have, I treat him right!

 

[SteveK]

Debbiet
Why not be specific with what electronic you want a quote on. People here may have done the job and can give a direct answer what to expect.
I am in an unrelated business where the similar work is repeated and I do it with the same contractor for my clients. Every once in a while Someone wants 3 quotes. I reply to ahead and get as many as you want, see if you can beat price I put in front of you. I do that because I am biased to my contractor, usually do not have a close 2nd so would go to the yellow pages. If my client gets a lower quote then they bear the consequences, not I.
What I am trying to say is cheapest is not usually best. Estimating Labour is not easy as each same job may have quirks. So all quotes will have a top up buffer of say 25% to cover unknown.
I prefer not to pay that top up. But I do repeat work which is different than a one time job.

Ask for referrals for the job you want to do, then tell the contractor they were referred. Your blank cheque will be less than any quote.

 

[tiltrider1]

you Are mixing apples and oranges. Cars are all the same. I can quote you the exact cost to have your car repaired because I know exactly what it takes. Call your mechanic and ask him for a quote to add a Mercedes engine to your Toyota and see if you can get a labor quote. Boats are never the same. They are full of after market systems. You never know what you are going to run into. On one boat you just cut a hole in the dash, on the next you have to plug the hole first, the third boat, the dash is full and you have to mount to the ceiling.

The vender knows that if he were to quote labor that accounted for everything that could go wrong he would scare off most customers.

 

[Woodland Hills]

you Are mixing apples and oranges. Cars are all the same. I can quote you the exact cost to have your car repaired because I know exactly what it takes. Call your mechanic and ask him for a quote to add a Mercedes engine to your Toyota and see if you can get a labor quote. Boats are never the same. They are full of after market systems. You never know what you are going to run into. On one boat you just cut a hole in the dash, on the next you have to plug the hole first, the third boat, the dash is full and you have to mount to the ceiling.

The vender knows that if he were to quote labor that accounted for everything that could go wrong he would scare off most customers.

That’s just for installing the box, what if the wire chase is full or there isn’t one? Then he may have to add circuit breakers or change voltage. How do you give an estimate for that?

 

[SteveK]

That’s just for installing the box, what if the wire chase is full or there isn’t one? Then he may have to add circuit breakers or change voltage. How do you give an estimate for that?

By giving the worst case scenario quote. The mark-up I was referring to earlier.

Also, unless the guy doing the quote is the guy doing the work, forget getting an accurate labor quote.

 

[BandB]

That’s just for installing the box, what if the wire chase is full or there isn’t one? Then he may have to add circuit breakers or change voltage. How do you give an estimate for that?

He should examine for things like that as part of developing the estimate. Don't estimate blind, do so with knowledge.

I think we all reflect the worlds we've come from. Some are willing to be casual with arrangements. I treat quotes on marine service like I've treated things in business all my life and I expect good, reasonable estimates plus must be told in advance of any overruns. Now, that's also why I'm better equipped mentally to deal with major boatyards than I am to deal with random individual mechanics or service providers. Major yards are use to doing business the way I am.

There's not a right or wrong, it's what works for you. But this is what is right for me.

Now, I do have people I've always dealt with on an hourly basis, so not 100% estimate in business. People I've used for extended time and doing small jobs, under $500 or so typically.

That's one element we're missing from the OP's situation and that is what is the price of the parts and labor you're talking about. Are we talking about 3 hours labor or 40 hours?

 

[jungpeter]

Hi Debbiet,

To a certain extent, I feel your pain and sympathize. In an ideal world, one would search out a service provider that has experience with the equipment installation you desire, not only with the hardware itself, but with the labor required to do such an install, on your particular brand, model, and year of boat. That provider would then inspect IN DETAIL your particular boat, and provide you with a fixed-price quote for both labor (sub-contracted or otherwise), and materials. He should be able to provide such a quote, as he's installed exactly this material, on your exactly identical boat multiple times before, right??? If he hasn't, why are you asking him to do so now?

Should you accept his quote, and he then runs into untoward issues with either material costs (the dollar exchange rate takes a dump, the parts vendor announces a price increase, etc.) and/or labor issues (after disassembly of your boat, there's a hidden bulkhead in the way, for instance), your provider should then STOP WORK, and negotiate a change order with you to move ahead.

Note I said "...In an ideal world." Even here in the PNW, a lively boating market if there ever was one, few service providers work this way. And while I believe we, the boating public, should demand service providers work in this manner and walk away from those that do not, I also don't believe the moon should be made of green cheese. To my knowledge, only Philbrooks in Sydney, BC will provide fixed-price estimates, and even guarantees to work to those estimates. Wish I could afford 'em, they do great work.

Your lament "...what did I do wrong?" is perhaps based on your experience in the auto repair business, where there is, indeed, book values of labor and material for almost every item of repair and/or upgrade on any automobile. But then, I'm pretty sure you understand this, and isn't really the reason for your original posting.

Certainly obtaining a cost estimate to include parts and labor for any major repair or upgrade to your boat is perfectly reasonable. If your vendor(s) are unwilling to provide the information you need to be comfortable prior to commissioning the work, run away. There are many, many unaffiliated independent marine electronics installers in the PNW qualified and willing to provide you with at least a ballpark material and labor estimate for your work. However, once the project's underway with your vendor of choice, stay closely attached, watch like a hawk, and be fully prepared for the unknown. And the additional costs associated with the unknown. And I'm pretty sure you understand this paradigm as well.

In my experience, it's a rare, rare boat project indeed that doesn't come in late, and over budget. My own included. I'm usually off by about 3X, and I've been afloat a long, long time. Oh, how I long for that green cheese...

Regards,

Pete

 

[Andiamo2018]

I do lots of boat work and it's always by the hour. I also don't provide 'free estimates'. Going to a boat to walk through it etc costs me money.

Boat yards charge enough to absorb all those costs (as well as their mistakes, poor management etc) and they are totally comfortable going 50% or more over their estimate.

Find someone you like and then trust him/her. If you don't like their work don't hire them again but to have a decent working relationship you have to hire them in an environment of trust. They are trusting you to make your final payments after all.

 

[ranger58sb]

This threw me because I'm used to working with shipyards that provide a complete estimate. I asked the both for labor. One hasn't responded and the other said "we don't quote labor but probably somewhere around XXXX". So it's clear they sub it out, ok fine but...

So I went to a third source and what floored me was they said they could do the job and I could look at the electronics at one of the other companies I'd spoken with - in essence someone [I thought] was a competitor. I flat-out told him I had a proposal from them already.

I think it might not necessarily mean sub'd labor, at least just from that comment. (But you could ask them about that, specifically.)

I'd expect that kind of comment ("we don't quote, but somewhere around XXX...") might be partly because there are so many variables, and they can't commit to XXX knowing that there's probably something in there that will bite them.

Our chosen installer didn't quote labor, offered a labor guess-timate sight unseen, didn't sub out the labor, and the final bill came pretty close to their guess.

Then too, some guys (your third choice?) are more focused as installers, and they maybe expect you can buy the equipment from anywhere. Which also in turn maybe means they don't have to deal with future warranty issues on specific equipment.

-Chris

 

[Steve DAntonio]

The marine industry does have its unique idiosyncrasies, but in many ways it's like other businesses. Others suggested a face to face meeting and I agree, that's a necessity.

Right now the industry is booming, there aren't enough people to do the work, so businesses tend to be lax or worse when it comes to working for your business. I never want to go through the dark days of the Recession again, but...when I would e mail a boat builder or equipment manufacturer a question about a product, they would often respond very quickly and often with a call. Today, many contractors know if they don't get your business, there's someone right behind you.

Having said all that, you can go about this in a way the increases the likelihood of a good result. Do your homework and carefully and thoroughly vet contractors, and you'll be satisfied.

This article will walk you through some of the detials.

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/cracking-the-code-part-i/

Here's an excerpt...questions to ask, and guidelines for vetting a yard or contractor.


Do you quote work and if so what are the terms of the quote and what’s the yard’s definition of a quote, is the price fixed or is it an estimate, does it include shipping, taxes, and other fees?

For T&M and quoted projects, what’s the material markup protocol?

Is the yard’s workmanship guaranteed and if so what happens if I’m far away from the yard and someone else has to undertake repairs?

How are third party warranties handled, will the yard act as an intermediary for gear they install that then fails? If, for instance, an inverter the yard installs fails, will they assist you in getting coverage?

Will the work be carried out to ABYC/NMEA (or another) standard? If so, are the folks doing the work ABYC/NMEA certified in the appropriate discipline or supervised by those who are? Does the yard have a valid membership in this organization?

Make certain it’s agreed that all work to comply with manufacturer’s installation instructions.

If the work is quoted, is it billed in segments as the work is carried out?

In cases where you are going to a yard for a specific project or refit, is storage/dockage or electricity charged while work is being carried out (ideally it should not be)? Will the yard consider waiving or discounting off season storage fees for large projects and refits?

Do you need to provide a deposit for work before it begins and if so what’s the typical percentage or amount?

Timely invoicing is important, particularly for T&M work. Being slammed with a huge invoice after the work is completed or nearly completed should be avoided. Toward that end, ask, how often are invoices sent out and if you call or e mail can you get an up to the minute (or at least through the previous work day) progress report on the amount of work that’s been completed or invoiced?

Establish a time table for the work’s completion.

Ask to see a sample invoice. Having wrestled with the equation of providing enough information, but not too much, I’m sensitive to how detailed invoices are, or are not. I once had a client describe the invoicing from a yard, in which he had nearly $100,000 worth of work completed, as “less than useless” because it was so confusing and riddled with errors. Ideally, it would be beneficial to see an example of what you can expect to receive before committing to any project, especially a costly and/or lengthy one.

 

[Lollygag1]

I have found that asking for referrals from my dock mates and Coast Godard Aux pals has been the best way to get work done on time, correctly the first time and at the price I anticipated. I have not price shopped on repairs but I have asked for a verbal estimate so I know what to expect but also understand that the cost could go up do to unforeseen isssues and ask that if this does pop up to let me know ahead of time. To date (4yrs) Most projects have been within estimate and I never feel I got hosed.

I also don't hound or hassle the techs I treat them as equals and communicate frequently. I have also given gifts to folks who have done good work (gift cert to a great resteraunt, rare olive oil etc) this has put me in good graces and hopefully gets me priority attention. I figure it cannot hurt to have them on my good side

 

[skipperguy]

30 years ago i got a boatyard/marina quote to clean and coat my teak (minimal) - $900, went to a local co who said they do most of this marina's work and would do it for $600, buttonholed a worker on twin boat to mine as he did the same job - $300, but he was afraid to alienate the $600 bid guy since he did most of his work.
What happened to the clean 33% profit factor used in the hardware store i worked in in the 50's ?

 

[BandB]

30 years ago i got a boatyard/marina quote to clean and coat my teak (minimal) - $900, went to a local co who said they do most of this marina's work and would do it for $600, buttonholed a worker on twin boat to mine as he did the same job - $300, but he was afraid to alienate the $600 bid guy since he did most of his work.
What happened to the clean 33% profit factor used in the hardware store i worked in in the 50's ?

That store went out of business. We target 43-45% in Hardware stores and 41% is probably around the industry average.