Navy Destroyer tee boned by a Freighter?

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. dh. With the greatest respect for those who have served and who are serving I agree to a certain extent with your opinion but there is also a percentage of military who do not enlist out of a sense of duty but simply because it is a job, they can learn a trade or profession and earn a wage.

 

[MRRiley]

In some ways I can see that that the faults of an underling are the responsibility of the boss if he hired him and trained him, but in the navy, when a junior officer is assigned to a ship he has the stamp of approval of the US Navy that he's qualified for the job he's been given..... I'm not sure its fair for his shortcomings to be blamed on the Captain. Thanks for answering

This is not quite correct. When a junior officer is assigned it is because they can "learn" to do the job. The actual qualification comes from the CO with concurrence, hopefully of the Xo and Department heads through a fairly difficult board process. This ensures he's comfortable with their knowledge and ability to strictly follow the standing orders which every Co issues. It's a compendium of how they want situations handled. When to call them, when to sound shipboard alerts and warnings, how to respond to reports from throughout the ship.
In this case, my experience tells me these standing orders were not followed. Heck the CO was trapped in his cabin, he received no notice, there is no doubt in my mind that was a flagrant violation of the standing orders.
Time will tell, but with loss of life despite reports of truly heroic actions of the crew; I'd guess the watch teams in, what amounts to the radar plotting room, the bridge, the lookouts and shipboard leadership will go. Deservedly in my opinion.

 

[Bigsfish]

Senor RT

Some even enlisted because a judge gave then a choice or jail. Thankfully most don't fit that group. Los Angles is now having the problem of returning service men heading into gangs with the knowledge they learned in service.

 

[FlyWright]

I know guys tossed out without a nickel or benefits for a DUI with 19 years in...less than a year from earning that pension. I know lots of guys in the private sector that didnt get paid while in jail, but had their jobs back like nothing ever happened when out.

You seem to know quite a few DUI drivers. Hmmmmm......

I served through the change of old school WWII to 1990s politically correct....

I liked it better when we were treated like junk yard dogs.

Toss us a bone once and awhile, dont let us be seen in high society, count on us to protect the yard, and be damn glad we were there when you needed us. Simple.....

My favorite example is in the 1890s as the equivalent of a Leiutenant Colonel, I could have been a territorial govenor, printing money, hanging bandits, clearing the path of progress ....but by the 1990s, I wasnt trusted to buy a box of pencils without 3 levels of oversight.

You tell me, a college educated, highly trained pro couldnt do crap while 100 years ago, a rich kids son with a bought commission could do almost anything. And yet, look how we turned out for the most part.

Go figure.

You are on fire tonight!

Scott

You joined the military and have to live by their rules and that is why you are so respected the world over. The military is held to a higher standard and I'm glad they are. I want my heros up on a pedestal! Life ain't fair!

Think for a moment about the words we use to describe those that are in the armed forces. They don't "work" for the Navy, they "serve" in the Navy. Think about what it means to give your service. In the US, men and women give their service voluntarily. They are putting the country's and the military service's needs and requirements above their own, even to the point of death. The very nature of joining military is to be subservient to their dictates. Being fair is not part of that equation.

That is the primary reason why I think that those that enter military service deserve my respect and gratitude. Sure there are some benefits to them for this service, but ultimately they are choosing to forego the basic decisions of what they will be doing, who they will be associating with, and where they will be living. They are doing all that on my behalf.

Two REALLY great posts! I'm loving this thread!

This man's story illuminates the points. This hero, Gary Rehm, deserves to have a Navy ship named after him.

A sailor sacrificed himself to save 20 lives on the USS Fitzgerald - Business Insider

 

[Robin]

This is exactly why you are supposed to follow the rules. Stopping to be a "nice guy" or you obey the "rule on tonnage" just creates chaos is an otherwise smoothly working system. Things get messed up when people don't do what's expected of them, even though its well intentioned.

Completely agree, but under sail and with inconsistent speed and not being close to the other guy, I chose to avoid getting into the closer proximity situation where obeying the rules would be imperative. BTW where does this idea of 'rule on tonnage come from? Is that some weird USA interpretation of the rabbit in the headlights game? Radar plotting and we had no MARPA back then, just pre-printed plotting sheets pencil and protractor. Small boat radar back then was all relative motion stuff, stopping should have allowed the projected course of the 'cat' to pass well clear ahead of us, no sweat to anyone. In clear visibility , different altogether, but at the time in the thick fog we could barely see the glow of the pulpit mounted bi-colour light, just 35 feet away. WE had left harbour in good visibility with a forecast of 'good with occasional fog patches' before running into a fog 'patch' that stayed with us for the rest of the way to France, some 60 miles, it actually cleared just after dawn as we entered the French port.

 

[Wxx3]

This is a translation from the gcaptain forum:

"Takeshi
This is my English translation of the same report by Reuters in Japan in Japanese.
ACX Crystal captain wrote to the company that while cruising to Tokyo bay at 18 knots, TWO watch crews of ACX found the destroyer on 40 degree port side 3NM in distance around 1:15AM. 5 minutes later the destroyer suddnely started moving and continued on thier collision course. While manually steering, ACX gave caution to the navy ship by turning on/off the light without any reaction. then decided to take hard starboard turn for collision avoidance but both ships crashed around 1:30AM.

Takeshi from Yokohama" A little more informative than the Reuters translation.


USS Fitzgerald collides with ACX Crystal off coast of Japan - Maritime News - gCaptain Forum

 

[MRRiley]

Fitz was probably doing engineering drills. Something like ramping up the load on the turbines which would cause exactly this behavior. The fact the watch wasn't doesn't change with that series of evolutions.

 

[Bigsfish]

Still the opinion of one side and words are picked to help that side avoid blame.

However what I find interesting is that the freighter said they signaled with lights but nowhere is there a report of those signals being received and acknowledged.

 

[CDreamer]

So, "while manually steering" the ACX Crystal tried to avoid the Fitz but crashed at 1:30 am. So then - still steering manually - the Crystal got back on its original course and speed for the next 30 minutes or so before finally turning around? That's either completely inaccurate or pretty damning for the Crystal's crew. And other than the course change after impact, I don't see any evidence of an attempt by Crystal to avoid the collision.

 

[Benthic2]

wasn't it already established that the Crystal was on autopilot at the time of the collision ?

I think the freighter captain my be trying to cover his ah..."stern" so to speak

 

[Ski in NC]

Some of those engine take a while to switch from heavy fuel oil to diesel fuel, and can't throttle down suddenly on HFO. Might be a factor in why they continued on.

Still more questions than answers...

 

[McGillicuddy]

So......if a junior officer is in charge...and decides to play "chicken" with a freighter rather than alert the captain....does the captain still get punished for the collision ?

Yes

 

[Heron]

Apparently no one yelled "Starboard!"

 

[FlyWright]

Some of those engine take a while to switch from heavy fuel oil to diesel fuel, and can't throttle down suddenly on HFO. Might be a factor in why they continued on.

Still more questions than answers...

That could explain the delayed course reversal.

 

[diver dave]

That could explain the delayed course reversal.

Crystal is running a 8 cyl diesel at 38k HP.

 

[Wxx3]

Some of those engine take a while to switch from heavy fuel oil to diesel fuel, and can't throttle down suddenly on HFO. Might be a factor in why they continued on.

Still more questions than answers...

And in fact, the site that made the conjecture about the ship being on autopilot based on the Marine Traffic data, finally realized it was not a simple process to turn off the autopilot and could easily take 30 min to complete the process.

And we don't know what the Fitz saw, since they ain't talking.

Of the close calls I have had in terms of boats crossing in front, they became close class because both boats turned to avoid at the same time. Had only one of us turned, all would have been better.

And that's during the day.

At night, I've had three very scary experiences, and that's in a boat that I know I could probably stop in less than 200' and turn in less than 75'.

So I can't imagine what the Crystal was going though.

 

[CDreamer]

I've never been on the bridge of a 900 ft ship, and I realize we don't know the circumstances here, so I'm just asking as a matter of learning:

If one ship collides with another while on autopilot, you're saying it may take 30 minutes to turn the AP off? Couldn't the "throttle" be manually pulled back to dead slow or even neutral in an emergency? What is it that makes disengaging or over-riding a ship's AP so complicated? In the meantime would the prop just keep churning?

 

[BandB]

I've never been on the bridge of a 900 ft ship, and I realize we don't know the circumstances here, so I'm just asking as a matter of learning:

If one ship collides with another while on autopilot, you're saying it may take 30 minutes to turn the AP off? Couldn't the "throttle" be manually pulled back to dead slow or even neutral in an emergency? What is it that makes disengaging or over-riding a ship's AP so complicated? In the meantime would the prop just keep churning?

I think they're saying 30 minutes from deciding to turn it off until you stopped or changed direction. You have tremendous force in play with a boat that size moving. It's similar to barges except multiplied many times. Inertia is a bear in these situations.

 

[Wxx3]

I think they're saying 30 minutes from deciding to turn it off until you stopped or changed direction. You have tremendous force in play with a boat that size moving. It's similar to barges except multiplied many times. Inertia is a bear in these situations.

That's also how I understand it.
In the g.captain forum that i posted, someone posted a link to that particular engine manual. It's a complicated and methodical process.

I'll more than ever, never pass in front again.

 

[twistedtree]

One of my instructors somewhere along the way in the past couple of years was a retired large ship captain, most recently big LNG tankers.

He said the same thing mentioned earlier about reducing power/speed; that it takes a long time unless you want to wreck the engine. I have no idea why that is, but I'd say he was a pretty credible source. He said the only control you really have to avoid collisions is your steering.

 

[Bigsfish]

And in this case the cargo ship was on AP. Where was the ship heading, what was its destination? Why Wouk do it do a 180 degree turn?

 

[Benthic2]

I think the 180 degree turn was after they realized they hit something and went back to investigate. I think the 90 degree turn to the right was the collision, then the autopilot went back to the original course....then the crew did the u turn to see what they hit.

 

[Bigsfish]

Too many questions like why wait an hour to report the accident?

 

[Benthic2]

I suspect they didn't know what they hit.....once they realized it was a USN ship they had to own up to it.....but that is just conjecture on my part. I suspect the Fitz was busy with crisis management and probably doesn't feel like they have to report to anyone.

 

[Bigsfish]

Really the lookouts on the bridge wouldn't have seen the **** as they hit it? You wouldn't feel that type of impact?

I'm beginning to think there might be something sinister. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[Ski in NC]

One of my instructors somewhere along the way in the past couple of years was a retired large ship captain, most recently big LNG tankers.

He said the same thing mentioned earlier about reducing power/speed; that it takes a long time unless you want to wreck the engine. I have no idea why that is, but I'd say he was a pretty credible source. He said the only control you really have to avoid collisions is your steering.

Heavy fuel oil solidifies if not kept up at somewhere around 250F(??), so if you reduce power or stop the engine, the fuel cools, solidifies and stalls the engine. And you can not restart it until system is taken apart and clogs cleared. So to reduce power engr has to go and switch over to diesel and run the engine til it flushes the HFO through. Also there is boiler on the exhaust that captures exhaust heat to make steam to heat the fuel. If you reduce power, not enough exhaust heat so a separate direct fired boiler is put on line. Some have a generator on the prop shaft, so if you slow down you have to start a genset and transfer loads. All this stuff takes time.

No expert on these engines, but know certain bits and pieces. So the above may have some errors.

 

[Benthic2]

Really the lookouts on the bridge wouldn't have seen the **** as they hit it? You wouldn't feel that type of impact?

I'm beginning to think there might be something sinister. Hope I'm wrong.

I would bet the freigter crew was either not on the bridge or was asleep.

 

[twistedtree]

I would bet the freigter crew was either not on the bridge or was asleep.

You really should go back and read the full thread, and perhaps the gcaptain articles.

By all indications the Navy ship is the one that screwed up, not the freighter. All the freighters movements as tracked by AIS make sense and fit the accounts by the freighter captain. After impact the freighter got back underway. There is nothing else to do if your ship is intact, which apparently it was. It's not like you wait around for the cops to arrive and take a statement. The 180 later on was presumably to go back and render assistance to the navy ship which we know was badly damaged. The delay between the crash and the 180 could just be the time to assess damage, and make contact with the Navy ship, who were surely occupied with their own damage control. Any nobody's going to focus on reporting anything until damage assessments and control have taken place, and crew are safe and secure.

 

[BandB]

I'm beginning to think there might be something sinister. Hope I'm wrong.

Wifey B: You better be careful in your yard at home as there are aliens in your neighborhood waiting for the right moment to take you back to their planet and perform experiments with you.

Well, that is, since you like conspiracy theories. Did you watch too much X-Files when you were younger? :lol:

 

[catalinajack]

Greetings,
Mr. dh. With the greatest respect for those who have served and who are serving I agree to a certain extent with your opinion but there is also a percentage of military who do not enlist out of a sense of duty but simply because it is a job, they can learn a trade or profession and earn a wage.

Really? Really?! Is their "service" any less valuable? And if they die while "taking advantage" are their deaths somehow less tragic?