Ford Lehman Biodiesel

[dannc]

...
It's like the comments on ethanol gasoline. I have been using it for over a decade and never "destroyed" any little engine....heck, hardly had any problems with it once a few lessons learned within the first year or two. But usually nothing more than a minor carb clean. Granted I wasn't using antique equipment, just the normal stuff homeowners, RVers and boaters would own. So I am not sure where this great myth came from other than user error.

We have two gas engines, forget the HP, maybe 20-25, where ethanol killed the engines requiring new carbs. They could not be cleaned because they were corroded and had to be replaced. Cost quite a bit of money to replace and since it happened during the middle of the pandemic, it took quite a bit of time to get new carbs. There are not old engines either.

There are now several gas stations that have non ethanol gas so that is what we put in the engines which hopefully will prevent this problem in the future.

Later,
Dan

 

[psneeld]

We have two gas engines, forget the HP, maybe 20-25, where ethanol killed the engines requiring new carbs. They could not be cleaned because they were corroded and had to be replaced. Cost quite a bit of money to replace and since it happened during the middle of the pandemic, it took quite a bit of time to get new carbs. There are not old engines either.

There are now several gas stations that have non ethanol gas so that is what we put in the engines which hopefully will prevent this problem in the future.

Later,
Dan

Sorry that happened to you but I helped maintain a fleet of carbed 454's for my assistance tower.

Ethanol didn't effect those carbs/engines (different marinizers too) unless we got free water in a tank and it phased separated. A quick cleaning and off we went.

Never saw a big issue with ethanol gas after the first year or two of adjustment back in the day.

 

[KnotYet]

Sorry that happened to you but I helped maintain a fleet of carbed 454's for my assistance tower.

Ethanol didn't effect those carbs/engines (different marinizers too) unless we got free water in a tank and it phased separated. A quick cleaning and off we went.

Never saw a big issue with ethanol gas after the first year or two of adjustment back in the day.

I am in agreement with your opinion as long as the ethanol/gasoline using
engines see regular use and have components that are compatible with ethanol.

The problems arise when the engine has long periods of disuse which can happen
with outboards and, in my case, my Honda generator. Even after running it 'dry',
the carburetor had clogged with fuel residue after several months of storage.
I was also using Stabil additive occasionally but perhaps not religiously enough.

 

[psneeld]

I am in agreement with your opinion as long as the ethanol/gasoline using
engines see regular use and have components that are compatible with ethanol.

The problems arise when the engine has long periods of disuse which can happen
with outboards and, in my case, my Honda generator. Even after running it 'dry',
the carburetor had clogged with fuel residue after several months of storage.
I was also using Stabil additive occasionally but perhaps not religiously enough.

That happens with regular gas too and "varnishing" is the old term I learned for it.

Like all new things there is a learning curve that if ignored has consequences.

My nearly 24 year old Honda 1000 genset gets very infrequent use, is always run dry AND tipped upside down to get all the fuel out of the integral tank. It always starts on the second pull. In 24 years all I have ever done with that genset is put new plugs in it after about 18 years.

Maybe that's a bigger attaboy for Honda than ethanol gas....

 

[KnotYet]

That happens with regular gas too and "varnishing" is the old term I learned for it.

Like all new things there is a learning curve that if ignored has consequences.

My nearly 24 year old Honda 1000 genset gets very infrequent use, is always run dry AND tipped upside down to get all the fuel out of the integral tank. It always starts on the second pull. In 24 years all I have ever done with that genset is put new plugs in it after about 18 years.

Maybe that's a bigger attaboy for Honda than ethanol gas....

Yup, even with all the competition, Hondas are the go-to choice for generators.
The gunk I found in the intake of my Honda was pretty gnarly though.
I may adopt the tilting after run-dry idea.

 

[psneeld]

Yup, even with all the competition, Hondas are the go-to choice for generators.
The gunk I found in the intake of my Honda was pretty gnarly though.
I may adopt the tilting after run-dry idea.

Something I usually harp on but forgot this time (probably others), even climate I am sure can help or hurt personal experiences with different topics here. So add that to the ethanol mystery.

90% of the time I have lived and operated in a fairly mild and humid climate. Not sure exactly how that would affect my experiences, but I will say I crossed paths with a boatload, road full and yard fill of engines running ethanol. I never saw the broadstroke of problems that the web seem to paint ethanol with.

If possible, leave no trace behind (I had to because non-ethanol was near non-existent whenever I needed gas) but I can see where others that are maintenance minded AND use non-ethanol gas are happier to think they have less problems....maybe that is true but I still don't think ethanol is all that big of a deal for the average person. But I am NOT debating the reason for ethanol, just it's hands on use.

 

[KnotYet]

Something I usually harp on but forgot this time (probably others), even climate I am sure can help or hurt personal experiences with different topics here. So add that to the ethanol mystery.

90% of the time I have lived and operated in a fairly mild and humid climate. Not sure exactly how that would affect my experiences, but I will say I crossed paths with a boatload, road full and yard fill of engines running ethanol. I never saw the broadstroke of problems that the web seem to paint ethanol with.

If possible, leave no trace behind (I had to because non-ethanol was near non-existent whenever I needed gas) but I can see where others that are maintenance minded AND use non-ethanol gas are happier to think they have less problems....maybe that is true but I still don't think ethanol is all that big of a deal for the average person. But I am NOT debating the reason for ethanol, just it's hands on use.

Just in the US there are close to a billion gasoline engines and virtually all of
them are using ethanol blend fuel. The newer ones with EFI will experience few
if any fuel related issues while the oldest ones with outdated plastic and rubber
parts and hoses will have the usual, well documented problems that will need
more maintenance and parts replacement. The 'web' is simply reporting what
people have dealt with and, as you know, problems get more posts than successes.

The OP was more concerned with bio-based diesel and I would add that the newer,
'renewable' non-petro diesel may well be little different than diesel #2 in practice.
Most of the biodiesel problems I'm aware of stem from earlier blends or straight veg oil.

 

[psneeld]

Just in the US there are close to a billion gasoline engines and virtually all of
them are using ethanol blend fuel. The newer ones with EFI will experience few
if any fuel related issues while the oldest ones with outdated plastic and rubber
parts and hoses will have the usual, well documented problems that will need
more maintenance and parts replacement. The 'web' is simply reporting what
people have dealt with and, as you know, problems get more posts than successes.

The OP was more concerned with bio-based diesel and I would add that the newer,
'renewable' non-petro diesel may well be little different than diesel #2 in practice.
Most of the biodiesel problems I'm aware of stem from earlier blends or straight veg oil.

Agree... I posted that I would do a lot more research into biodiesel if I was going to use it.

I generally have found little good info about many topings in marine publications and forums etc (except for links).

Some of the best resources are the white papers written by people in different fields than boating, yachting, some levels of marine industry.... mostly in similar or related fields but not specifically about boats or fuel generically. I would go to the petroleum industry or marine diesel engine manufacturers and see what third parties have written for them. Also industrial generator users like emergency management agencies and hospitals, etc.

That research along with the normal chatter I hear in all my boating and marine industry reading/conversations would give me a better idea where biodiesel really stands as an alternative fuel.

 

[slowgoesit]

My nearly 24 year old Honda 1000 genset gets very infrequent use, is always run dry AND tipped upside down to get all the fuel out of the integral tank. It always starts on the second pull. In 24 years all I have ever done with that genset is put new plugs in it after about 18 years.

Please tell me that in 18 years you've changed the oil at least a few times as well?

 

[psneeld]

Please tell me that in 18 years you've changed the oil at least a few times as well?

Sorry ....you caught me ..... yes to nearly regular oil changes...once every year or two as my son would borrow it occasionally and I would have to remember where I put it....

Oh yeah...the air filter disintegrated and I had to clean up that mess, never put a new one in since it was never really in dusty environments when running, usually on the boat or a fire truck at Christmas parade time.

It has by far been my most abused piece of equipment in my life and absolutely the most reliable and least maintenance required.

 

[North Baltic sea]

Hi,

Neste My is not FAME diesel. It's premium diesel and burns clean. Complies with standard EN 15940.

Neste My has been on the market here for years and has never had any problems.

 

[sunchaser]

With over a dozen new coal plants under construction in SE Asia and India our discussions on TF regarding boating emissions are lost in the winds of reality.

Seldom will the discussion gravitate to more people means more energy demand. Altruistic CO2 thoughts from Europe and NA are not acceptable in China and India as the burgeoning public pushes for easier lives through energy.

 

[North Baltic sea]

With over a dozen new coal plants under construction in SE Asia and India our discussions on TF regarding boating emissions are lost in the winds of reality.

Seldom will the discussion gravitate to more people means more energy demand. Altruistic CO2 thoughts from Europe and NA are not acceptable in China and India as the burgeoning public pushes for easier lives through energy.

Hmm...

China Invests $546 Billion in Clean Energy, Far Surpassing the U.S.
China accounted for nearly half of the world's low-carbon spending in 2022, which could challenge U.S. efforts to bolster domestic clean energy manufacturing

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/china-invests-546-billion-in-clean-energy-far-surpassing-the-u-s/

 

[sunchaser]

Hmm...

China Invests $546 Billion in Clean Energy, Far Surpassing the U.S.
China accounted for nearly half of the world's low-carbon spending in 2022, which could challenge U.S. efforts to bolster domestic clean energy manufacturing

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...llion-in-clean-energy-far-surpassing-the-u-s/

Yes China is pushing for clean energy. Particularly with solar, nuclear and gas. These expenditures are sorely needed if one has ever eaten the Beijing air.

But, Chinese coal production is at record levels and ever increasing. India has a staggering 40+ coal plants in construction or on the drawing boards. Interestingly, neither India or China view man made CO2 from power plants as a bugaboo. Their prime concerns are to clean up the air from the standpoint of PM10s, ozone and nitrous oxides which send people to the hospitals.

There is far more to digest regarding immediate air concerns once one has traveled and worked in the Far East.

 

[Hyperion]

On the bio diesel question. I have two 135s and several different fuel tanks on board so using cooking oil and alternative fuels sounded like a good possibility. Burning less polluting and toxic stuff around my kid's was also very attractive to me. The more I researched, specially used vegetable oil, the less I was convinced.

A few points to keep in mind about carbon based climate change. If every country did what they agreed to do in the Paris accord, all it would do is delay the 2 deg rise by 14 years while burning economical capacity that could have been used to help people in better ways (poverty and cold kills more people than 2deg will). Solar, wind, and eCars require battery storage and produce massive material waste. The Cobalt mining in the Congo needed to make those batteries creates abject horrors today, every day, worse than the planet temp raising 2 degrees. I suggest people read two important books on the subject. Then decide what you think is best for the planet and humanity.

Cobalt Red (You will never buy an electric car if you read this. What we are doing to those people is worse than the Atlantic slave trade and is happening today)
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=cobalt+red&i=stripbooks&crid=AQESV25HZKDV

False Alarm (An pragmatic deep dive into the problem)
https://www.amazon.com/False-Alarm-Climate-Change-Trillions/dp/1541647467

 

[rslifkin]

In my mind, figuring out what alternative fuels a boat can run on and what it takes to avoid issues when using them has practical benefits even if you're not worried about the environmental effects.

If you know a boat can run on alternative X, then if it's cheaper somewhere, you get an option to save money. And if there's ever an availability issue with fuels in an area, you might be in better shape.

For similar reasons, I make sure my gas boat can run on ethanol containing gas without issues (fuel lines are good for it, etc.). It ran on the stuff for 15 years when it was on Long Island Sound, as non-ethanol wasn't available down there. It is here, but given the choice, I'll happily run the stuff with ethanol as it's often close to $1/gal cheaper.

 

[KnotYet]

Hyperion, while the cobalt mining in the DRC exploits the local population, it is
the business practices of the largely Chinese owners that is deplorable, not the
technology. Conflating the two to condemn rechargeable batteries is unconvincing
and a typical anti-green talking point. Your other book selection is also mainly a
political point of view, not a scientific one.

At any rate, rechargeable batteries are the best fit to meet growing energy needs
and lithium is merely the current (tsk) most economic tech to provide them.
YMMV.

As far as using WVO in a boat, I would be concerned about long term storage issues.

 

[socalrider]

On the bio diesel question. I have two 135s and several different fuel tanks on board so using cooking oil and alternative fuels sounded like a good possibility. Burning less polluting and toxic stuff around my kid's was also very attractive to me. The more I researched, specially used vegetable oil, the less I was convinced.

I suggest people read two important books on the subject. Then decide what you think is best for the planet and humanity.

Cobalt Red (You will never buy an electric car if you read this. What we are doing to those people is worse than the Atlantic slave trade and is happening today)
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=cobalt+red&i=stripbooks&crid=AQESV25HZKDV

False Alarm (An pragmatic deep dive into the problem)
https://www.amazon.com/False-Alarm-Climate-Change-Trillions/dp/1541647467

Hyperion,
As an environmentalist in the Renewable Energy business I share your view on biodiesel as I've written before - not a good solution.

While I'm not an expert on supply chain stuff, there's certainly reason for concern, BUT... if you're concerned about cobalt, I recommend you source an EV with LFP batteries, which are cobalt free. Saying that the DNC mines are a bigger problem than global climate change is a tough comparison - they are problems on different scales.

Finally, you're recommending a Bjorn Lomborg book on climate change. This guy has been around for decades - he's been quite well refuted, and his arguments hold less and less water the more clear it becomes that (1) climate change is a huge problem and (2) shifting off fossil fuels is actually not going to be as tough as we thought and (3) there are huge additional benefits from doing so - air pollution for example.

 

[Hyperion]

Hyperion,
As an environmentalist in the Renewable Energy business I share your view on biodiesel as I've written before - not a good solution.

While I'm not an expert on supply chain stuff, there's certainly reason for concern, BUT... if you're concerned about cobalt, I recommend you source an EV with LFP batteries, which are cobalt free. Saying that the DNC mines are a bigger problem than global climate change is a tough comparison - they are problems on different scales.

Finally, you're recommending a Bjorn Lomborg book on climate change. This guy has been around for decades - he's been quite well refuted, and his arguments hold less and less water the more clear it becomes that (1) climate change is a huge problem and (2) shifting off fossil fuels is actually not going to be as tough as we thought and (3) there are huge additional benefits from doing so - air pollution for example.

I am always willing to learn. Please lead me to some info on Lomborg as I found his pragmatism and data quite convincing. As far as the horrible situation in the Congo with "artisanal" mining goes, I consider it more pressing than future temperature changes because millions are suffering brutally today and have been for over a 100 years. I could not possibly compare it to what may happen with climate change in the future as it is an unknown but compared to climate change today, there is no doubt it is worse. I know about LFP but unfortunately, so long as China controls DRC and the lithium production market, the problem is staying with us until more people become aware. I am almost done with Cobalt Red and let me tell you, it is brutality on an unprecedented scale. I digress here as I don't want to derail this thread any more than it has already.

 

[waterbound]

Neste MY not biodiesel

Hi,

Neste My is not FAME diesel. It's premium diesel and burns clean. Complies with standard EN 15940.

Neste My has been on the market here for years and has never had any problems.

To add to @NorthBasticSea's post, my family chartered a boat in San Francisco a couple of months ago and the captain mentioned that they switched to Neste's renewable diesel because of a new state regulation. He said he wasn't sure how the diesel would perform, but had zero problems over the better part of the year.

 

[alormaria]

Never change or do anything different to an old engine. They rarely appreciate it.

 

[Lou_tribal]

I did a bit more research on biodiesel, from the perspective of an environmentally conscious person wanting to do the right thing.

Summary: run away. Not good for the environment at all as it's currently produced. Aside from the tiny amount sourced from waste vegetable oil (fine, but not gonna move the needle) it's like ethanol but even worse - displacing crops grown for food, causing deforestation as new ag land is required to produce, etc. etc.

Lots of pressure from enviro crowd to kill off both ethanol and biodiesel subsidies, but difficult with entrenched and powerful ag interests. *sigh*

Absolutely, bio fuels are a total non sense. Why? Because 1 unit of fuel produced needs N unit of fuel for its production, nothing environmental at all, just marketing and green washing. Only fuel produced from waste would have a reasonable positive impact and it is only a little fraction of it.
Instead of trying to find the graal of green energy maybe a first good step would be not to waste energy. I am always amazed at people giggling about solar power but at the same time leaving lights on 24/7, all nights and days, total non sense. Same for my neighbors taking their car to go and check their mailbox... about 300 feet away.

L