Bow Damage during delivery

[Hippocampus]

Another reason for AIS in the free for all.

Yesterday went through the C&D. Coming from us behind just at the end of the Elk R. there were two large sport fish at full plane. Coming at us was a very large barge push tow combo. We asked on 13 if we should move out of the lane as from AIS I could se we would meet at a turn. That captain said no just hug the greens as we’re doing and thanked us. He tried to raise the spotfish on 13 then 16. No response. A few tense moments of evasive maneuvering followed. No need for that. There were enough boats about in the absence of knowing the name VHF calls can be interpreted as not applying to a particular boat. Of course given the behavior those sportfish may just have not been listening.
This was now in the fall with fewer boats out. Admittedly a Saturday. But would think during peak season it would be real hard to direct your calls.

 

[Art]

It is much more precise in keeping some order before someone goes beyond where they should have.

You can see it most any weekend with rec boats in crowded wterways..... no general idea of what should be done so it's pretty close to a free for all.

Very True!

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

We have AIS transceiver and it stays on 24/7. With all the tight curves and and bays, AIS becomes more important safety device. More than once I have been called on VHF 16 in Tracy Arm by a cruise ship asking if I could move over to let them come around the corner.

If you don't have AIS, make sure you get one at the next boat show. Not having one is like not having a VHF radio.

 

[psneeld]

That's a little extreme in the sense that tens of thousands of boaters get by just fine without them.

Not sure where exactly has more twists and turns and bays than another.

I do see them as being more important on rivers where barge trains take up the dang river (nearly) AND the really do control where you can be to pass them. There could be other places where AIS importance is pretty important, but I have yet to see it.

Even more important than AIS would be some good training for the vast majority of boaters.

True it's a pretty good tool, but just one of many in a bag of tricks.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

True it's a pretty good tool, but just one of many in a bag of tricks.

I would agree. Since we live and cruise in areas with heavy ship traffic AIS is an important safety tool.

 

[psneeld]

One of my discussion points is so many boaters are quick to say other boaters are spending too much time on looking at their electronics and not using their eyeballs.

To me, the vast majority of the time is that is really all the AIS does other than provide names at a greater distance for shortening the VHF radio call by using a name instead of a geo reference.

I am spoiled having jobs that honed my time, distance, speed, constant bearing estimations.... I just hope that it isn't just another tool that in critical situations may distract from timely decision making by some boaters. It seems to run rampant these days in maritime and aviation probably now highway mishaps.

 

[OldDan1943]

The 'flat earth' people really need help with navigation.

 

[backinblue]

I didn't miss the point. The day AIS is used for indiscriminate tracking by law enforcement will be a very dark day indeed. The unintended consequences are enormous. I think it was Ben Franklin who said "those who give up freedom for security deserve neither."

Peter

I agree Peter. GPS tracking of vehicles could find millions of violations every hour. Thankfully we are not there....yet. Although we are not that far as GPS and following-distance tracking of commercial trucking have been in place for years along with red light cameras.

 

[backinblue]

Another reason for AIS in the free for all.

Yesterday went through the C&D. Coming from us behind just at the end of the Elk R. there were two large sport fish at full plane. Coming at us was a very large barge push tow combo. We asked on 13 if we should move out of the lane as from AIS I could se we would meet at a turn. That captain said no just hug the greens as we’re doing and thanked us. He tried to raise the spotfish on 13 then 16. No response. A few tense moments of evasive maneuvering followed. No need for that. There were enough boats about in the absence of knowing the name VHF calls can be interpreted as not applying to a particular boat. Of course given the behavior those sportfish may just have not been listening.
This was now in the fall with fewer boats out. Admittedly a Saturday. But would think during peak season it would be real hard to direct your calls.

So we think that AIS would be a great thing to use in situations like this, but unfortunately, many boaters do not even monitor VHF channels regularly. I know this is true of many recreational boaters I know which is amazing to me. They only turn on VHF if they need to make a call. Mine is on whenever my other electronics and engine are on. AIS is another tool in the bag, but is useless in the case of reckless boaters or those that are not listening. The people using and responding to AIS are probably the least of your worries.

 

[Hippocampus]

Let’s do a poll.
No AIS
MarineTraffic only
Receiver only
B
B+
A
Maybe a moderator would be kind enough to set it up. Active or recent boaters. Including folks who haven’t been boating for a decade may bias the results. Would be nice to know what’s going on now. If I recall expense and ease of installation have improved somewhat. Last one was plug and play. As side thing of interest might be splitter or separate antenna.
I’m firmly in the transceiver group. Just because some others are unsafe idiots doesn’t mean I have to be. Same with screen hypnosis. See this most frequently with crew texting, answering emails, reading or surfing the net. At least if they’re looking at the MFD they have half a clue. If they see a AIS signal showing a dangerous signal there’s a better chance they’ll do something about it. I leave my audio alarms off. Don’t need them. Depending upon crew may turn them back on. I leave my radar zone and sector alarms off. Again depending upon crew may set them up and fully alarm them.
I was taught the prudent mariner makes use of ALL the tools reasonably available to him(her). Holding to old school thinking or being unwilling to absorb the minor expense of a transceiver seems unreasonable to me. Sure there’s some highly experienced and trained individuals where it doesn’t add much if anything but for the rest of us it’s a boon. P you’re a skilled professional. Not all of us are nor is our crew.

Btw I’ve gotten to be a hardass. No electronic diversions while on watch until you’ve proven the judgment of when and where. One earbud only for music.

 

[ranger58sb]

Let’s do a poll.
Receiver only
B
B+
A

Maybe better to start a new poll thread...

-Chris

 

[Hippocampus]

B oh so true. But at least if I call them by name and they don’t respond I know it’s totally on me to ensure safety. I basically do that anyway but occasionally I’m pleasantly surprised and we can both act allowing less inconvenience to both.

 

[OldDan1943]

I suspect many/most of us wired AIS so as to 'go dark' or 'passive only' under the mistaken belief we are hiding. LOL I suspect we could sooner hide from the IRS than 'on the water'. Personally think the only advantage of DCS is that big red button, calling for assistance by an auto transmission of/by LAT and LONG on channel 20.

 

[OldDan1943]

One earbud only for music.

I guess you are more liberal than me. I say, no ear buds because there will be NO distractions at the helm, including ear buds for music if you are on watch!!!
You should be monitoring VHF, especially channel 16 and a channel of the helmsman choice. Depending upon our position and weather, WX, port traffic, bridge traffic. Yes, I have two VHFs at the helm, main VHF and a hand held.
I have 2 speaker associated with SIRUS near the helm only because the PO put them there. I put in a rheostat to shut them down. Once I sell the boat, I will leave it to the new owner.
IF you think you need music to stay awake, it is time to change the watch.

 

[Hippocampus]

Who are you hiding from? Only can see see doing that is where there’s pirates. Off coast of Venezuela or such. Makes no sense to me in coastal waters. Do you leave breadcrumbs off a Go or Spot? Then turn transmit off? Find DSC helpful when in cruising grounds where’s there friends about.

 

[mvweebles]

.....No electronic diversions while on watch until you’ve proven the judgment of when and where. One earbud only for music.

Never really given it much thought. I can tell you I've read a lot of audio books on night watch, most memorable of which was "Path Between the Seas," David McCulloughs epic account of how the Panama Canal was built. Read by the author (who has an amazing voice), I read it on my way to the Panama Canal.

For me, on long passages, whatever helps someone stay awake is fine. Now, my experience predates smartphones, so I may amend that. With some notable exceptions, I've never had a problem with someone paying attention when on watch (notable exception was a guy who was halfway through a second circumnavigation on a slow sailboat - he was unapologetic about sleeping on watch).

Peter

 

[guy with a boat]

I suspect many/most of us wired AIS so as to 'go dark' or 'passive only' under the mistaken belief we are hiding. LOL I suspect we could sooner hide from the IRS than 'on the water'. Personally think the only advantage of DCS is that big red button, calling for assistance by an auto transmission of/by LAT and LONG on channel 20.

I hope that you are in a very small group if you wired your AIS to not be functional. The only boats I know that do that are some fisherman (both sport and commercial) that don’t want to give aways their “secret” spots. They are mostly kidding themselves but do what you want.

All the serious boaters that I know use their AIS the way it is meant to function. The last thing I want to do is be invisible to other boats.

DSC uses channel 70.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

I hope that you are in a very small group if you wired your AIS to not be functional. The only boats I know that do that are some fisherman (both sport and commercial) that don’t want to give aways their “secret” spots. They are mostly kidding themselves but do what you want.



All the serious boaters that I know use their AIS the way it is meant to function. The last thing I want to do is be invisible to other boats.



DSC uses channel 70.

On my MFD I have a button to shut down my AIS. I have never used it.

In Canada there are U.S. charters that will shut down their AIS to sneak through to Alaska and to avoid the VTS reporting requirements.

 

[Hippocampus]

Peter as I said once they have my trust they will do well I leave it to their discretion. Also read on the pad on watch.
I’m at them helm right now!!! It why my spelling and editing is lousy.

 

[DaveGibson]

Doesn't matter

Sorry about this situation. Two questions, was the other vessel insured and which vessel was giveaway?

I was a passenger on a pontoon boat cruising on the St. John's River in Florica. A go-fast powerboat approached us throwing up a huge wake. I had my camera handy since I just took a photo of an alligator. I took a photo of the boat. The wake hit us and actually sunk the pontoon boat. It popped up slowly and the water drained off the deck. I saved my very expensive camera.

Back home, I blew up the photo of the jackass boat. I contacted authorities with a description of what happened and the boat's number. They said they could do nothing because a sheriff didn't see it happen.

My take is that the rules of the road don't matter. If it doesn't matter to law enforcement, it surely doesn't matter to insurance companies.

 

[Deano]

Pitman boat yard in Tarpon Springs has worked on mine. Fine job. No complaints.

 

[rslifkin]

I was a passenger on a pontoon boat cruising on the St. John's River in Florica. A go-fast powerboat approached us throwing up a huge wake. I had my camera handy since I just took a photo of an alligator. I took a photo of the boat. The wake hit us and actually sunk the pontoon boat. It popped up slowly and the water drained off the deck. I saved my very expensive camera.

Back home, I blew up the photo of the jackass boat. I contacted authorities with a description of what happened and the boat's number. They said they could do nothing because a sheriff didn't see it happen.

My take is that the rules of the road don't matter. If it doesn't matter to law enforcement, it surely doesn't matter to insurance companies.

If there's damage or injuries, then you can go after the offending boat. Otherwise, it seems that the best you'll typically get is the USCG making a note of the incident and that's it.

 

[psneeld]

USCG can't get into wake issues, there is no federal law on wakes until you get to fairly large vessels...as in small ships.

The best they can do is get you or someone on "negligent operations" but as in most law enforcement as posted above, no damage or injuries.... usually, the operation has to be witnessed by the LEO for "the big picture".

Better going to state or local officials. If not witnessed or you possess absolutely damaging photos/video AND had damage or injuries...again good luck.

Better chances with bringing a lawsuit if you really think you can prove your case.

 

[Bonedoc]

…. and with AIS and “ hit and run” scenario you still would have to prove who the captain was. Boat owner may be different than operator rspecially with small boats.

ATTORNEY: “My client maintains he was not on the boat that day.”

 

[timb7734]

Without proof otherwise, that delivery captain is liable. Sounds like he was asleep to be going that fast that the collision incurred so much damage.

 

[Wolfhound]

Was your delivery captain bonded & insured?

Wolfhound

 

[Bonedoc]

Without proof otherwise, that delivery captain is liable. Sounds like he was asleep to be going that fast that the collision incurred so much damage.

I agree.

Absent and perhaps regardless of any witnesses to this event- the delivery captain hit a object at a good speed causing significant damage while entrusted to deliver your boat as a professional. He was hired for solely that reason. I assume he was licensed and insured. He would be insured for just this scenario.
Does he work for himself or a company?

 

[mvweebles]

I assume he was licensed and insured. He would be insured for just this scenario.

Does he work for himself or a company?

Do y'all really expect to pay someone a few hundred bucks a day and risk of accident transfers to some nebulous insurance company? What insurance company would accept liability for a $300k boat that they haven't surveyed, inspected, no idea about trip route or cruising limits, etc. At worst, we're talking simple lack of professionalism, not negligence, certainly not gross negligence (a very high bar in law).

The captain may have some business related insurance to protect against general lawsuits (general liability, errors and omissions, etc.) But there isn't an insurance company in the world that would blindly insure a boat - without an inspection, without a survey, nothing - simply because their insured is driving it.

Hearing this though process, theres a piece of me that is glad I'm not delivering anymore. And I'm suspicious as heck about the claimed circumstances.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

Do y'all really expect to pay someone a few hundred bucks a day and accept liability for a $300k boat?

The captain may have some business related insurance (general liability, errors and omissions, etc.) But there isn't an insurance company in the world that would blindly insure a boat - without an inspection, without a survey, nothing - simply because an insured is driving it.

Piece of me that is glad I'm not delivering anymore. And I'm suspicious as heck about the circumstances.

Peter

The delivery captain wouldn't be insuring the boat. Insurance carried by the captain would be liability insurance to protect against any damage caused if the captain did something negligent. If something happened and it wasn't caused by negligence on the part of the delivery captain, the boat owner's insurance would be the one paying.

 

[mvweebles]

The delivery captain wouldn't be insuring the boat. Insurance carried by the captain would be liability insurance to protect against any damage caused if the captain did something negligent. If something happened and it wasn't caused by negligence on the part of the delivery captain, the boat owner's insurance would be the one paying.

I doubt even that. Maybe Gross Negligence (captain was stupid drunk or something), but even that has its limits. It's a very high bar in the law. Mistakes happen - at worst, that's what happened here. A lapse in judgement, perhaps he should have known better, perhaps he was negligent. Note-to-self: if I ever hire a delivery skipper, ask if he's ever been associated with an insurance claim for any reason. Or ever had a DUI or been a related offense.

For my consulting work, I've carried professional insurance for years. It's about $1000/year. There is simply no way an insurance company would sign up for that type of liability at a rate a delivery skipper making $400/day could afford without charging a helluva lot more than $400/day. If you could, would create a great loophole to get around expensive insurance premiums though.

Some things about this country drive me nuts.

Peter