Older+Refit vs. Newer/Better

[Erik]

Hi All,

Looking to make my first purchase, doing lots of research, and zeroing in on my wants/needs. I am planning for live aboard in 40-45 footer. I have a budget of $150K USD (max $200K) and the delta on sales price is dizzying between different vessels.

So, was wondering is it better to spend $50-100K on an older boat (1970s-1990s) and then do a big refit…or spend closer to the $150K on something newer and then fix/repair as needed?

I know the cost of a refit is going to vary dramatically based on what is required and the upgrades selected, but is $50K a good ballpark?

 

[Simi 60]

Rooster to feather duster time approaches yet again
Option 3 is my choice.

 

[sunchaser]

Erik
If you have well above marine skills for electrical, joinery, mechanical and plumbing skills fixing up an older boat is an option. Remembering that boat location during this mighty endeavor combined with lots of free time are other pre-requisites.

Lacking any of He above requirements then an eyes on search for a twenty year old or newer boat in great shape becomes the task. I question $$$$ numbers for finding a newer boat, have had eyes on this vessel yet?

 

[mvweebles]

My first reaction was to ask "define refit?" But then I realized it didn't make any difference - it's virtually impossible to make the numbers work on a refit if economy is your goal.

Here are some ballpark numbers that could easily consume your $50k delta for a 42-foot:

Dinghy - if you need a new one, figure $10k as a starting point, $15k is more like it. And another $3k for chocks.

Canvas/bikini/enclosure. $4k if you only need new Bimini canvas. Goes up very quickly from there.

Electronics. Fairly basic 2-helm setup starts at about $15k plus installation.

Anchor and rode. $4k and up.

Paint: bottom paint including removal of old paint: $5k. Hull paint: $20k. Hull and topsides: $55k.

Redo brightwork on a GB42 style boat: $3k and up

Upholstery: $2500 for a settee.

Replace thru-hulls: $500-$1k each.

Heads/Sanitation: $1k per head plus hoses ($15/foot) plus install and consumables.

Batteries: like-for-like swap isn't too bad as long as access is good. But if you need increased capacity, it can get time consuming and expensive.

Burn rate: $1k/mo to $1.5k/mo for marina, diver, insurance whether the boat is usable or not.

The above only scratches the surface - is consider the much of the work to be "refresh" vs "refit." Some of the work can be done as DIY but the value will depend on your skills. I've seen DIY paint jobs that were pretty bad and eroded value of the boat.

Especially if this is a first boat (or first big step-up in size), and if you really have a hard stop at $200k, find the best boat you can within your budget - might be a 36-footer. Especially if you are doing this with a spouse/partner. I know the allure of a washer/dryer on a 45-footer may be intoxicating, but refitting a boat while living aboard is very difficult even as a single guy. The money pours out in alarming sums. The old saw "break out another thousand" is horribly dated - I long for thoses when it was only $1k denominations.

As Sunchaser said above, if you're very skilled, possible to find a path as DIY. But even then, it's really hard to make the money work - you are buying brand new kit vs paying 10-20 cents on the dollar for the same kit used but in serviceable condition on a well-kept used cost.

Good luck.

Peter

 

[sunchaser]

Good response Peter. A simple engine “refresh” such as injector pump, new exhaust elbow, rebuilt pumps, new hoses , servicing heat exchangers and fluid changes will set one back +$5K if done as a DIY.

Some or all of this work could well be the case on a newer vessel too.

 

[PhilPB]

To OP. If only it were that easy.

 

[ranger58sb]

I am planning for live aboard in 40-45 footer. I have a budget of $150K USD (max $200K) and the delta on sales price is dizzying between different vessels.

So, was wondering is it better to spend $50-100K on an older boat (1970s-1990s) and then do a big refit…or spend closer to the $150K on something newer and then fix/repair as needed?

I know the cost of a refit is going to vary dramatically based on what is required and the upgrades selected, but is $50K a good ballpark?

Hard to guess overall refit/refresh costs, partly because so much depends on initial condition (how much needs work?), and partly because so much depends on labor rates (or your ability to avoid outside labor).

Around here, skilled work usually bills at $135-150/hour, and even yardbirds are billed at between $65-100/hour, depending.

If you think you are (or can become) reasonably competent at basic engine work, plumbing, electrical work, joinery, painting, etc etc etc you'd be much better off compared to having to hire all those guys.

I think were it me, and if I thought I could be effective at fixer-upper-ing... and if I had the time to do everything...

Then I think I might aim for the best condition boat I could find that might suit the mission -- at about the $150 mark and without regard to whether it's as long a 40' -- followed by a really in-depth assessment of what that boat would take to keep floating. Maybe.

-Chris

 

[mvweebles]

Besr case scenario is valuing your labor at zero. Rough number example. Add a $5k bow thruster and the value of the boat might increase by $5k. Maybe. Assumes your labor isn't part of the equation, assumes you don't need a pair of batteries with cabling, switching, and circuit protection which could easily add another $1500. And adding a bow thruster is probably one of the best case scenarios for value enhancement.

Even a boat in good condition is going to have a survey check list of minor items, plus another list of items that were missed, plus another list of upgrades the buyer would like to add. First year ownership costs on any boat (including great condition ones) are pretty high.

There are a few scenarios where major refit can be justified. I did it as a labor of love, preservation of a classic, but mostly because 36-feet is the absolutely largest boat I can fit in a slip I own. But with carrying costs so high, even if you do the work yourself, upgrading a tired boat is difficult to justify on a financial basis.

Peter

 

[PierreR]

I chose option number one. The $50k 42 footer.

If you have to ask, choose option number 2 or 3.

I went into this knowing full well that I should have chosen option 2 or 3, could have and in retrospect, probably should have. I just could not do it. I have skill levels way beyond the average skilled yachty. Their is virtually nothing on my boat that I cannot fix or do with minimal hours labor and $. The problem is, my body is not really up to the task as much as I thought it was. I have rotator cuff surgery this Friday.

Even with a heathy body, you need to have above average skills in finding the "diamond in the rough" perfect candidate for your project to maximize dollar in vs dollar equity. I knew what I wanted and found it quickly. I did a survey and then hired a survey done. The surveyor did not find anything that I did not. The survey gave me piece of mind, an actual cash starting value and basis for insurance. I had to go far away from home to find it and felt the project was worth the expense of brining it back. After $5k in, I brought it back 3,400 miles on its own bottom with little trouble.

Work will resume about 6 months from now. I need the boat ready for prime time in one year.

You are getting pretty sound advice from others in this thread.

 

[PierreR]

Besr case scenario is valuing your labor at zero.
Peter

Come on now, I want to make at least $0.5 and hour on this one.

 

[mvweebles]

Come on now, I want to make at least $0.5 and hour on this one.

When the dust settles on all the time spent including sourcing parts, if you did it without losing $75/hr, you're way ahead of the game.

Peter

 

[ranger58sb]

When the dust settles on all the time spent including sourcing parts...

Good point. I spend a huge amount of time in "research mode" -- finding and reading OEM manuals, learning the jargon, finding parts or likely replacements at OK costs, learning in advance (to the extent possible) what a repair or replacement will take...

And all of that adds maybe 100% or more to the time involved in every repair or service.

Might be different if I'd come from a career in the trades, but I didn't... and even that "learning the jargon" thing beats me up a lot most of time. (What's a "flange?" Et cetera... but exploded parts diagrams have become my best friends.)

Example: It took me about 3 days to learn how to loosen the drain nuts on our oil filters. It's a simple system: Drain nut, over a copper crush washer, torqued to a specific value per the manual. The drain nuts screw into larger sleeves (?), both inside- and outside-threaded, that are in turn screwed into the aluminum filter housing. The idea is to loosen the actual drain nut without loosening the sleeves.

I couldn't budge the drain nuts. Got a bigger wrench. Got a breaker bar. Finally loosened two of the drain nuts, but also loosened the other two sleeves instead. Now what? Still had to separate two of the drain nuts from their sleeves, and then had to learn how to reinsert the sleeves so they'd stay in there for subsequent openings.

Luckily our MAN guys took pity on me. Turns out a good hammer tap on a drain nut will loosen the copper crush washers enough so the drain nuts come out easily. Duh. Who knew?

And time marches right along...

-Chris

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
How to make $100K on a fixer-upper? Start with $500K.

 

[tiltrider1]

With new boats in the 40-45 foot range costing $1,000,000 once fully commissioned. Anything in the 50,000 - 150,000 range is going to need work. My point is, you will need to have maintenance money in reserve on any boat purchase.

What I have learned. It is cheaper to buy a boat with the options you want than it is to add the options.

Unless you are special, never buy a boat that has drive train or structural issues.

The best fixer upper is a perfectly good boat that is filthy.

 

[Hippocampus]

Calculations are the same for houses, boats, land vehicles or any complex system.
Cost of ownership is really purchase price plus improvements/maintenance/ carrying costs (insurance, loan interest if present etc.) minus sale price.

I’ve owned new boats built for me and used boats. Both have required the gremlins sorted out. I’ve owned old boats and newer used boats and it’s the same. All boats always need something. Bigger boats always end up more expensive to own.

What is suitable depends upon use pattern and what you and your significant other will deal with and still enjoy life.

On this thread are a poster who not unlikely spent more on his boat than its original cost out the door. Another who went large. Some who went middle of the road. Each decision was totally logical for that owner.

You can’t go cheap on a boat without paying some form of penalty. Comfort, performance, safety, restricted use pattern. The question is which will you put up with and to what degree. Just spent $2k on a mattress. Was it necessary. No. Does it increase ultimate sale price. No. Will it increase comfort. Yes.

Unless you have extensive time and extensive skills DIY means it’s own set of penalties. Most depend upon unknowns at time of purchase even with a good survey. But to get rid of some of the unknowns requires boat bucks. Your tolerance for unknowns depends upon your personal resources and personality. I’m still sorting thing out in our second year but know I’ll end up with a boat in many respects better than when first constructed. I did this while actively long term cruising. But it requires flexibility and tolerance. I’m retired so this is possible. If I was still working it would not be.

I think your limit of $200k for a 40+’ boat is unrealistic given current economic realities. Regardless of condition berthing fees, fuel costs and consumables cost the same. Purchase price is only one variable in cost of ownership. It’s cost of ownership that’s the important number when thinking about boat choices.

 

[Ken E.]

I went down the road of re-habbing an older boat rather than buying newer. My read on the two choices:

If you have the time, money and ability to upgrade an older boat and you plan to keep it long-term, it may be a good option. Realize that you will get very little on resale for your time and expense, but you'll have a serviceable boat to use.

Alternatively, buying newer requires more money up front but should have a higher ultimate resale value based on its age. The potential trap here is to pay a premium buying the newer boat and then have to spend a lot of money anyway to get it to where you want it.

You will be well-served under either scenario to take your time in your search and find a good boat to begin with. Ideally, this will be a boat that the previous owner has spent a lot of money on or cared for it well such that you as buyer will get the benefit of it.

 

[socalrider]

The thing that's working in your favor is that the market undervalues old boats in good shape. And, the market seems to be softening a bit - so you may be able to find a boat that's been well maintained for a decent price.

The type/cost of the refit will depend greatly on both your starting point, the use case of the boat, and how yacht-y you want the finished product to be. Do you need that full $15k suite of electronics, or can you get by with an iPad?

My boat is very very simple compared to most on this forum, and was bought cheap ($65k or so). I've got another $25-30k into her, and have cruised with my family in the summers for four years now. She's a serviceable liveaboard for SoCal, but I wouldn't take her beyond Ensenada or north of Pt. Conception without some upgrades (radar for example).

 

[PhilPB]

When I bought my current boat I roughly figured that I would probably spend an additional 2 times the purchase price on upgrades and repairs. Well, I'm well beyond that. When I sell this one to get my next boat, the new owner of my current one will get an awesome boat!

 

[CharlieO.]

Our next boat will still probably be an older vessel, but we will look for one that someone else has previously done a refit and updates. We boat this boat because we wanted just a simple boat to learn as much as we could on it.

 

[Gdavid]

The cost of the repairs is an unknown factor, despite your best estimates the magnitude of repairs required or the cost of materials, parts, labor are storage are all highly subject to increase so buy the boat in the best condition possible.

You cannot assume a higher purchase price will buy a turn key boat, all boats need something. Experience looking over the boat yourself as well a quality survey are both necessary to improve your odds at success but be prepared for surprises anyway after the sale.

I would look for a boat in regular use that has been actively exercised and maintained, some of the best boats don't hit the market, they are sold word of mouth when the owner is ready to move on and fellow dock mates/friends know how well the boat was maintained and jump at the chance to purchase it.

 

[kthoennes]

Boy I so appreciate Ranger's post. Yes, right there. Sometimes I'll spend far more time researching repairs and chasing obscure parts than on the repairs themselves. And that's exactly why when the marina accidentally crunched my early 2000's-era radome on the travel lift last season, I cruised eBay to find a replacement Raymarine array -- so I didn't lose hours of my life on the nav system upgrade merry-go-round hunting for new cables and adapters and fuses and learning NMEA communication protocols and antenna configuration and...

I'm sure new stuff is really cool and slick and it'll make lunch for me and tuck me into bed at night, but I don't have enough time in my life to chase a 9832B27HXCV27(q) adapter for the sender cable to a holding tank level gauge. Stuff like that can eat you alive.

 

[DBG8492]

The first thing to do when considering a boat is what you're going to use it for. If it's a toy to take out on the weekends or a few long-term cruises here or there - or if you just want to do the loop once - you'd probably be better off spending upfront to get something more "ready to go." This goes double if - for any reason - resale value is any part of your thought process.

On the other hand, if you're looking for a true home - something you plan to actually live on full time until you die, then resale value won't even cross your mind. Instead, you will focus on things like roominess, the ability to go where you want to go with the crew you have, and, most of all - comfort.

My fiancé and I were in the second group with minimal funds, so we knew our market was pre-limited to boats that would need (lots of) work. We got lucky and found the boat we were looking for below market rate - even for its condition. We have a plan, but we also know that no plan ever survives first contact with the enemy. We know that there will be successes and failures and that money, sweat, and blood will all be spilled. However, because we know that this is going to be our forever home, we agreed that we were not even going to keep track of what we pay for repairs or changes we make. It's just a cost of living how we've chosen to live.

 

[Erik]

Thanks everyone. Super useful information…it is much appreciated! Doing all this research has been a combination of fun, overwhelming, and daunting. Still have a lot to learn and I’m not Captain DIY at all beyond some basic carpentry so definitely need to factor that into the decision.

I don’t have eyes on any particular vessel. In fact still figuring out fiberglass vs. steel vs. wood on hull material for fuel efficiency, maintenance, etc.

Based on all the advice in this Forum I’m leaning far more heavily towards the “Keep It Simple Stupid” principle…smaller boat, lower costs, etc. and then reassessing my wants/needs after a year or two. I tend to bite off more than I can chew and fast forward to the perceived end-state. Sometimes that works in my favor, but would be pure folly regarding a 40-foot motor yacht.

 

[socalrider]

I don’t have eyes on any particular vessel. In fact still figuring out fiberglass vs. steel vs. wood on hull material for fuel efficiency, maintenance, etc.

40' motor yacht? Fiberglass fiberglass fiberglass.

What's the use case? Where are you cruising & how far do you plan on going?

 

[Erik]

40' motor yacht? Fiberglass fiberglass fiberglass.

What's the use case? Where are you cruising & how far do you plan on going?

If/when I go live aboard, then it’d likely be up and down the East Coast (U.S.). If I change the use case to be more weekender or the occasional longer cruise (2-4 weeks), then I’d downsize.

Currently I’m living in Europe (Italy) so wood/steel hulls are very common. As noted above I’m leaning strongly to starting with something smaller and more temporary.

 

[PierreR]

As noted above I’m leaning strongly to starting with something smaller and more temporary.

Very good idea.

 

[PierreR]

When the dust settles on all the time spent including sourcing parts, if you did it without losing $75/hr, you're way ahead of the game.

Peter

I am already money ahead even if you add in the costs of bring the boat back. I only spend $5,200 getting the boat ready for the trip after the boat had little use for the previous 38 years.
I had to access the boats real condition. I am the third owner in 45 years. I bought the boat with 1,320 hours on the engines and 5 hours on a rebuilt genny. The boat had 1,320 hours since new. Last owner was a professional rig captain who kept the boat n fresh water and a covered slip. 23 years. The boat was filthy but mechanically maintained

I don't need to research things all that much and hunt down parts. Some examples. The previous owner said all of the fuel valves except one were froze up and would need replacing. He had replaced one after messing it up. I looked at them and quickly determined they were Teledyne gate valves. I emoved a handle, took a flat punch and a hammer and tapped the tumbler next to where the handle attaches. They are spring loaded and that frees them up instantly. I put the handle back on. Problem solved in 5 minutes per valve.

Another, previous owner sold the boat as not having stabilizers because to his knowledge, they had not worked in 38 years. I went on line for information, crickets, company out of business 25 years ago. No problem, go in the shop make new air lines, take valves and cylinders apart, walk to drawers and pick out seals that would work. scrap the old dryer and find a new coalescer in a bin and install that, clean out the air tanks service the compressors, free up the shafts, put it back together and fire it up. They worked fine all the way home. I took a guess at the operating pressures and the range of motion based on design. Will redesign them this winter with more up to date pneumatics and add electrics. For me, simple and straight forward. Out of pocket probably $200 because I what I have on the shelves.

One thing I really liked about the boat was the electronics were all way old and the electrical system has not been bastardized by every specialist making installations on the boat with goodies like running wires through limber holes.

Biggest problem is getting this body fixed or I will lose my labor.

Biggest oops was miscalculating the size of the cleaning job. Wax on/wax off does not work without a rotator cuff.

Bottom line here. Even with all my skills I could still lose this game.

 

[mvweebles]

On any given boat, there are, broadly, three possible scenarios. (1) it's easier and less expensive than anticipated; (2) it's harder and more expensive than anticipated; or (3) it's about what was anticipated.

#1 is not impossible as you clearly show. But odds are approximately 100:1 against.

Peter

 

[PierreR]

On any given boat, there are, broadly, three possible scenarios. (1) it's easier and less expensive than anticipated; (2) it's harder and more expensive than anticipated; or (3) it's about what was anticipated.

#1 is not impossible as you clearly show. But odds are approximately 100:1 against.

Peter

I would agree with the 100:1. I knew the boat layout and knew the boat would be fairly easy to modify for my wife's disabilities. This was a broker handled boat. I questioned the broker thoroughly and would not drive 1,000+ miles to see it without a sea trial included. I had a list of run don't walk items on my sheet. I went expecting to reject the boat and found it too good to be true. I know my tendency to look at things with rose colored glasses so I commissioned a condition and value sea trial/out of water survey. I did not ask the broker for a surveyor suggestion and went with the best. Expensive but would have been cheap had he uncovered more than what I had. I did the engine survey. Survey came back same as what I found and good assessed value. I then bought the boat cash and have plenty left over.
I developed an excellent repore with the previous owner and kept the boat at his condo for five additional months while working on it for the trip. He joined me for the first month on the trip back and had a ball.

Boat has been condition 3, about what I was expecting with no surprises.

 

[socalrider]

On any given boat, there are, broadly, three possible scenarios. (1) it's easier and less expensive than anticipated; (2) it's harder and more expensive than anticipated; or (3) it's about what was anticipated.

#1 is not impossible as you clearly show. But odds are approximately 100:1 against.

Peter

Sounds like PierreR stacked the deck in his favor by arriving on the scene with a pre-existing skill set (knowing what's a problem, knowing how to fix it, knowing how much time and $$ it will cost), which isn't the case with most buyers.

Another point in favor of buying the small/temporary/cheap boat is that it can allow you to climb up that learning curve so you're in a situation a bit closer to PierreR when you get the second boat.

Honestly to be a successful boat owner at this price point I think you have to enjoy doing the work.