Proper way to ballast a boat?

I noticed a boat for sale recently that had about ten blocks of what appear to be 100 pound lead billets on each side of the centerline engine. There could be more that I did not see in pictures. The lead was not on center, and it was not secured in any way to the hull. If for some reason the boat were to be knocked over, wouldn't the lead crash into or through the saloon sole, damaging everything it hits, and possibly pinning the boat upside down as what was originally on the hull in now on the cabin top? I can't imagine that this is a proper way to ballast a boat. I would think the lead should be in the keel area or at least on center provided there are no list issues. At a minimum, shouldn't ballast be secured or restrained in some fashion? I have heard more than one opinion on this. Any thoughts? Thank you. Bill

Then there’s the seacocks, sea strainer, fuel water separators, etc

The biggest chance of a knockdown in our area is the wind and debris blast pushed in front of an avalanche or landslide...apparently they can travel quite a ways over water at high speed skimming along on a thin layer of compressed air.

Hopefully we’ll take it on the bow, but if on the beam, the last thing we need is chunks of lead flying around the engine room!

Ballast should be secured somehow. Lead ingots would be a concern as they are compact for the weight involved which of course is also why lead is used.
I agree that they could shift in a serious roll and then wipe out a seacock or similar creating a sinking boat instead of just scaring the heck out of you.

Some fiberglass work could be done to secure them.

However, if you looked around many boats there is a lot more down there besides the lead ingots that could go flying if not secured and properly.
Tool boxes, batteries, boxes of spares and supplies, inadequately secured auxiliary equipment.

Lots of stuff is not practical to tie down for most of us BUT cribbing with high sides to secure the tool boxes, bins, straps on batteries, not wimpy screws, locking doors and so on can secure most of it unless the boat is truly rolled over.

If the boat were actually rolled over most power boats will not come back. Then the ballast may be a moot point.

If the boat were ONLY seriously rolled but not to the point of capsize then loose ballast/gear could be a concern by causing further damage that could finish a boat that otherwise would survive..

Previous owner, who is almost certainly NOT a naval architect, took it upon themselves to alter the weight and balance of the boat. For me, that would be a HUGE red flag!

On a previous boat we added some ballast to the lazarette because the boat trimmed bow down a bit. We used the 60# or so ingots and glassed them in position so the could not move. Also it helped contain any lead that might get knocked loose from the ingot since lead isn’t real good for you.

Right in the ower's manual from Nordic Tug they talk about how to "trim" the boat athwartships (using sand bags if I remember correctly) if needed.

I agree that if something relatively permanent is needed (or used), it would be best if it was secured or restrained.
There is no visible added ballast in my boat, and it rides well and is quite "balanced" so I basically skimmed that part going on to more pertinent sections.

A Navel Architect is not needed unless you are totally clueless.

Most boats require trimming fore and aft and list adjusted side to side after all equipment, gear and provisions are loaded. Installing heavier equipment like generators, dinghies, freezers etc can change the hulls orientation in the water too. Large fuel and water tanks changing level as contents are used can also change the way the boat floats.

I have 1,000 pounds of lead shot sewn into Sunbrella bags, each containing 50#, stored towards the bow, under the floorboards, between bulkheads. The 1,000 pounds is to compensate for a bigger generator towards the stern, heavier tender on the boat deck, isolation transformer and inverter/charger also towards the stern. That 1,000 pounds is in addition to a 44 Bruce and 3 tool boxes under the forward berth. On the port side of the engine room, there is another 150# of lead to compensate for the house bank on the starboard side. The bags are securely strapped down.

When we start on our summer cruise, we start with downrigger weights, pot puller, downriggers and other heavy equipment under the forward berth. As we use fuel and water tanks, we monitor usage and switch tanks to maintain balance. I also start moving the heavy equipment from under the berth to the lazarette as the stern starts to get lighter. With 1,000 gallons of liquid, maintaining balance is critical.

I can tell when the list and trim is off with two powerboat Lev-O-Gauges, one facing for and aft and the other athwartship. Both visible from the helm. I can also tell by the boats motion when balance gets off.

The boat I added ballast to was heavy in the bow. Maybe because they built the boat with a 5’ cockpit and didn’t account for the extra flotation aft due to the cockpit. Nothing drained correctly on the boat. I added 1400# in the lazarette. I replaced the water tanks in the lazarette with the biggest possible and kept them full. It still was not enough but it was the best I could do. I did glass the lead ingots in so they could not nove and to contain any lead dust. We had that boat in 18’ seas off the PNW and I didn’t want the ballast moving around.

I have about 600 pounds of ballast fastened to the inside of the hull on the starboard side at floor level to offset a port list from the galley. While not everything is fastened down. The lead was quite easy to do and definitely didn't want it shifting in big seas.

Ted

These are all good answers. Thank you. The lead I am referring to was lying on the steel hull along various stringers and ribs. The cabin top was added to an existing twenty year older hull and thus the need for ballast if I assume. It was a nice boat, but seeing that much lead just laying there gave me pause. I suppose it would be easy enough to weld in some strapping to keep them from shifting/ dumping. My offer was not accepted so this is somewhat in the past now. Thank you for your thoughts on this. Bill

If a boat rolls over, it and you are most likely "done for". The ballast crashing through the sole would surely be an additional problem but the boat is already trash and probably headed for the bottom, likely with you in it.

The added ballast more likely saved the boat from rolling until it was hit by a sunami.

It should be anchored but except for an exceptional event probably wouldn't be going anywhere

pete

A properly designed/built boat shouldn't need extra weights.

markpierce said:

A properly designed/built boat shouldn't need extra weights.

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Until equipment upgrades with larger units or removing unnecessary equipment or heavier tenders.

markpierce said:

A properly designed/built boat shouldn't need extra weights.

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That will work ONLY if absolutely nothing aboard is ever changed. But when was the last boat that ever happened to.

Most boats get changes, different engines, more batteries, a generator that wasn't allowed for , either larger or simply new, an AC not allowed for , a dinghy not designed for and so on and so on.

Definitely be carefull as major changes can upset a boat balance causing a capsize. But if changes are made and an imbalance occurs it can also be dangerous to not rebalance the boat especially if rough conditions are encountered.

I have been in large boats twice where the boat rolled enough that the bridge was in the water. Both times it was in the dark, and both times I was a passenger. Once it was predictable given the extreme number of boats getting on plane in a small area, the other it was a larger or rogue like wave in a blow and the boat broached. In both of these cases the lead billets I saw unsecured in this trawler would likely have shifted. I assume the more outboard they are the more likely they are to be effected by the roll. A large breaking wave could capsize almost any boat. The US Coast Guard purposely capsizes their rescue craft in some inlet in the PNW just to train for such an occurrence. I am going to conclude from this thread that a properly designed boat should not need ballast until such time as things change on this boat in regards to significant weight difference and locations from the original design. I will also conclude that ballast should be secured well enough to withstand a roll AND a capsize. The damage done by unsecured ballast could either force a capsize, pin a boat over, or don enough damage below to cause a sinking. Thank you again for the input. Bill

Many trawlers, Albins in particular, sit a little bow down in the water. I don't know why.

I once saw a twin to my 36 foot Albin where the owner had replaced the stairs to the flybridge with concrete blocks to add some stern weight. Way to high and too far forward to help but ..

pete

My eye says Albins are timmed by the bow because they have a clipper bow, large flare and narrow forefoot.

I place all my heavy stuff as far aft as I can, keep the bow as light as reasonable and still could use a 1000 pound or so aft....

Moparharn,

C’mon, rolled down so that the “bridge was in the water”?!?!?!

What does that mean? Flying bridge? And you weren’t thrown off? And you went boating again? And in one case it was from a wake?

This seems a little much.

moparharn said:

I have been in large boats twice where the boat rolled enough that the bridge was in the water. Both times it was in the dark, and both times I was a passenger. Once it was predictable given the extreme number of boats getting on plane in a small area, the other it was a larger or rogue like wave in a blow and the boat broached. In both of these cases the lead billets I saw unsecured in this trawler would likely have shifted. I assume the more outboard they are the more likely they are to be effected by the roll. A large breaking wave could capsize almost any boat. The US Coast Guard purposely capsizes their rescue craft in some inlet in the PNW just to train for such an occurrence. I am going to conclude from this thread that a properly designed boat should not need ballast until such time as things change on this boat in regards to significant weight difference and locations from the original design. I will also conclude that ballast should be secured well enough to withstand a roll AND a capsize. The damage done by unsecured ballast could either force a capsize, pin a boat over, or don enough damage below to cause a sinking. Thank you again for the input. Bill

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Actually the newer USCG surf boats (47 footers) were NOT designed to roll, but to pivot around that large buoyancy chamber aft.....why" because they know that full on rolss and capsizes can go way worse than anyone wants.



Yes, there are boats designed to survive those conditions...just not about 95% of all production boats. Even well found commercial fishing boats rarely survive a complete knockdown or roll. The west coast surf training area is Cape Disappointment on the Columbia River.


Nope...I don't expect my windows to survive so what should I care about stuff shifting around in the bilge?


I have had a sportfisherman knock down to where the water was to the bottom of the salon windows.....surprisingly not much shifted and no one was hurt...but we were all young and in good shape...and I saw it coming early enough to shout a warning. Had I not, probably several would have gone overboard and others severely hurt.



Also, has we not caught most of the breaker forward, and the cockpit swamped, we probably would have kept rolling over and lost the boat.


No, not really worried about rolls of 80+ degrees....I don't expect most powerboats to survive. Thus the reason most of us trust smaller sailboats for longer open water passages.....and YES to them being able to survive a knock down and continue . Yes, there a a small percentage of bluewater powerboats and they too should meet that standard. If you want to change your coastal cruiser into a blue water boat...it will take far more than just strapping things down.

Capt Dan,
I'm sorry my account does not satisfy you. Do you need dates, names, and references?
Yes, the side of the bridge was in the water, the boat was on its side. People were injured in the cabin, **** was everywhere and it was scary. The boat just kept going over until the side hit water. Momentum and a big wave was all it took. My friend was alone in the bridge and he just held onto the wheel and backed it down. I went boating again? Not even sure that is worth addressing. Boat wake? You obviously think you know more than you do. If you know anyone that lives in Detroit ask them if they have been to the fireworks via boat in the river. The Curtis Randolf fire boat throws a wake you could for miles off of. The rebounding waves from every direction at a particular time when it ends has to be experienced. Add to that a wind blowing up the river and a 4 knot current going down. The boat was a Bertram 33.
Please go doubt someone else will you.
I know another guy who put his Silverton on its side when he turned out of a channel into the setting sun and ran into 1 foot of water. He prop walked until it died and rolled on its side. The salvage was more than the repairs by a factor of four to one. They had to dig a channel to get it out. Oh and it was in Canada and he is a US boater. Oh and it was on first nation water as well. In all three of these cases unsecured ballast would have moved and likely have done a bunch of damage.