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Old 08-14-2022, 08:40 AM   #181
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TT points out economics are an obstacle. Believe he’s right for
Short term ownership
Brief seasonal use (less than around 7m).
Infrequent use (weekend warriors).
If any of the above are met long, light and lean whether hybrid or not is at a disadvantage.

Believe the above correct if you compare boats by displacement and usable living space. Although some yards charge for winter (or hurricane season) dry storage by square footage slips are usually billed by LOA with more for 1 1/2 to 2 standard slip multi hulls. A Arksen 65 (really more like 68 true inclusive LOA) is comparable in living space to a N475 or a Artnautica 58 to a N41. Costs only wash out toward even if you use the boat a lot, anchor more than berth, live on it for extended times. Otherwise even if diesel rises even further in costs the heavy displacement for LOA would likely be more cost effective.
The cruising segment is small. With the above 3 obstacles even smaller. In some places there’s movement to restrict diesel use (inland waters in Europe as an example) . Still, even with governmental actions this with be a small market.
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Old 08-14-2022, 04:48 PM   #182
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If someone here knows wind generators well, I'd be very interested in a heads up and links. Where we live, the local nickname is "Windy Point"; the wind is blowing now at 30kn (as I contemplate the rib journey to shore!). I have been planning a substantial solar installation, but would now like to rethink with wind generation in the mix. Thanks for those thoughts, Hippocampus.
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Old 08-14-2022, 05:20 PM   #183
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Seems like we have folks here who know enough of the physics of solar to answer a question that has bugged me.

One of the limiting factors is the square footage of space for panels that is large enough to create enough power to do the job. IF one were to take some reasonably efficient hull, and above all cockpit, cabin, and forward deck space build an aircraft carrier top that is one big solar panel, would that give you enough power to both cruise and use power for daily life? Since that sort of design would be the max solar generation, if that can't do the job the rest becomes moot with current technology.
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Old 08-14-2022, 05:23 PM   #184
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I think the important thing to consider, particularly for the early adopters is that some of them appear willing to go slower in order to accommodate the electric operation. I “like” the idea of being green. But what I would really be after with an electric boat is a quiet ride, similar to a sail boat, without the hassle of learning how to sail. I think I would be happy with a 60-80 mile range per day, with enough energy to keep me comfortable at night. But then you have to recharge somehow, and regardless of how many panels you can stack on a boat they don’t work at night. So back to carrying diesel for the recharge, and listening to an engine run for some period of time.
Did anyone ever think a self-sustaining onboard solar panel system was viable to “propel” anything 24/7? It’s the sailors living on the hook who want basic living conveniences from an initial investment in solar panels and batteries.
Hydrogen-electric power to propel all vehicles is the future. The technology exists and is advancing everyday with $Billions invested by public and private sources. There are cars, buses and trucks operating everyday with hydrogen-electric green power. Hydrogen-electric power will eventually replace all gas, oil and coal power plants. Solar-electricity fills a small niche but it’s not the solution to gas, oil and coal power… Hydrogen-electric power is.
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Old 08-14-2022, 05:29 PM   #185
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Did anyone ever think a self-sustaining onboard solar panel system was viable to “propel” anything 24/7? It’s the sailors living on the hook who want basic living conveniences from an initial investment in solar panels and batteries.

Hydrogen-electric power to propel all vehicles is the future. The technology exists and is advancing everyday with $Billions invested by public and private sources. There are cars, buses and trucks operating everyday with hydrogen-electric green power. Hydrogen-electric power will eventually replace all gas, oil and coal power plants. Solar-electricity fills a small niche but it’s not the solution to gas, oil and coal power… Hydrogen-electric power is.


It would be great if you could say more about the examples you cite, and why you think this will happen. You have made this assertion before, and when asked about it you said google it for yourself. I have and don’t see it.

Care to defend your theory?
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Old 08-14-2022, 05:46 PM   #186
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If someone here knows wind generators well, I'd be very interested in a heads up and links. Where we live, the local nickname is "Windy Point"; the wind is blowing now at 30kn (as I contemplate the rib journey to shore!). I have been planning a substantial solar installation, but would now like to rethink with wind generation in the mix. Thanks for those thoughts, Hippocampus.

Id forget about them

One of the best models out there is the D400 @ $3800


https://www.keoghsmarine.com.au/ecle...-free-d400-12v

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The large D400 produces 3.8A at nine knots, so you are looking at a very respectable 91Ah per day.
Blowing around 9 knots here now
Solar is putting in around 45 amps @ 12v at 9am in winter
9 x 275w Jinko panels cost us about $700 in total
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Old 08-14-2022, 05:57 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by FWT View Post
Seems like we have folks here who know enough of the physics of solar to answer a question that has bugged me.

One of the limiting factors is the square footage of space for panels that is large enough to create enough power to do the job. IF one were to take some reasonably efficient hull, and above all cockpit, cabin, and forward deck space build an aircraft carrier top that is one big solar panel, would that give you enough power to both cruise and use power for daily life? Since that sort of design would be the max solar generation, if that can't do the job the rest becomes moot with current technology.
It can be done
But is it realistic?

https://phys.org/news/2013-06-world-...-boat-nyc.html

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Old 08-14-2022, 06:31 PM   #188
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It can be done
But is it realistic?



So the answer is yes, barely.

http://https://phys.org/news/2012-05...t-climate.html

Thanks
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Old 08-14-2022, 07:32 PM   #189
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Question:

Can a small, old PV panel [with no auto shut off in the wire link] over charge a single 27 LA starter batt if left charging for many sunny days in a row?

Sorry photo is sideways... straightens when I punch it up.
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Old 08-14-2022, 07:42 PM   #190
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so the answer is yes, barely.

http://https://phys.org/news/2012-05...t-climate.html

thanks
not without storage batteries…
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Old 08-14-2022, 09:07 PM   #191
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It would be great if you could say more about the examples you cite, and why you think this will happen. You have made this assertion before, and when asked about it you said google it for yourself. I have and don’t see it.

Care to defend your theory?
I’m not defending “my” theory… I’m a teacher.

I have an Australian Shepherd because they, along with Poodles, are the smartest dogs in the world. It took him 5 minutes to learn to bring me his dish when he is hungry… Here are some Google dishes to review.


https://youtu.be/bZ0VSrG1Uag

https://youtu.be/2YzgB-7uQBA

https://youtu.be/QVM5XLgpe8o

https://youtu.be/pNIq0N47tLE

https://youtu.be/Y05Wh7Qhw3Q

https://youtu.be/q1MfAA890N0

https://youtu.be/aP-2ZkSuOLo

https://www.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/veh...&ds_rl=1277805
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Old 08-14-2022, 09:25 PM   #192
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Solar works when the sun is shining and is at a decent angle above the horizon. So even in ideal circumstances only part of the day and poorly enough during inclement periods to be nothing more than a trickle charge at best. That’s true regardless of brand or space allowed.
Wind takes up nearly no real estate. Does need >10k to give a meaningful output but fewer down days in many cruising grounds. In those it’s 24/7 output. We had 2 D400s and two standard house panels mono crystalline. Above posts were generated from 8 y of use. Neither required maintenance once installed.
View wind as a compliment to solar. Strengths/weaknesses of one the opposite of the other. D400s where mounted above a hard binimi. You’d needed to look to see if they were spinning. Need to look at production comparisons over a appropriate time frame. At least months Need to judge where you cruise and when to judge if the expense is worthwhile. Yes experience was with a full time cruising sailboat. Yes summer grounds are less windy (northeast US) and winter grounds were windy(windwards).yes summer grounds had longer days. So seasonal variation makes sense.
Even on an Arksen where every available inch is solar there’s not enough output to get rid of diesel propulsion.
Agree H has its place. Unfortunately don’t think it scales down well enough to be a viable choice for a mom and pop couple with occasional 2-4 guests.
Think for power the largest segment numerically for long term cruising boat new construction is in the $800k to $2.5m USD. Don’t think retrofitting makes any sense for hybrid nor pure electric. This discussion is irrelevant to used boats in my view
In that market deep water seems targeted to increase efficiency while preserving range, comfort and available speed over theoretical hull speed when needed. So the least modification in lifestyle if coming off a standard SD boat.
Artnautica seems to target range and efficiency. Arksen the same with the added focus on maximizing solar integration. Still they all use conventional diesel for passage making propulsion. Hybrid is offered as well. Hybrid probably only makes sense in a boat like the A58. Very low powered diesel with variable pitch prop. The KW required from the electric motor is therefore also quite low. That would allow intermittent non diesel use. The electric motor doesn’t care where the KW comes from-solar,wind, shore power, fuel cell, battery bank. So any source would serve.
H fuel cell has a lot to offer if.
Electricity used to split water is “green” generated.
H fueling stations exist along everywhere you cruise.
Your system has zero leakage. So you don’t need to refuel if your boat sits for awhile.
Unlike cars and trucks where infrastructure exists that’s not true for recreational boats. Even California had enough issues early adaptors were put off. You make be right and Toyotas bet will pay off on land but think my children probably my grandchildren won’t be cruising on H fuel cell boats
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Old 08-14-2022, 11:23 PM   #193
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I’m not defending “my” theory… I’m a teacher.

I have an Australian Shepherd because they, along with Poodles, are the smartest dogs in the world. It took him 5 minutes to learn to bring me his dish when he is hungry… Here are some Google dishes to review.


https://youtu.be/bZ0VSrG1Uag

https://youtu.be/2YzgB-7uQBA

https://youtu.be/QVM5XLgpe8o

https://youtu.be/pNIq0N47tLE

https://youtu.be/Y05Wh7Qhw3Q

https://youtu.be/q1MfAA890N0

https://youtu.be/aP-2ZkSuOLo

https://www.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/veh...&ds_rl=1277805

You should stop watching YouTube promotional videos, and retrain your dog to bring you a high school physics text book instead of his dish.


Ask where the hydrogen comes from. This was discussed here https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/...&postcount=123 and in previous posts in that thread. Even if the hydrogen is "created" from renewable power sources, only 20% of energy to create the hydrogen makes it to the electric motor driving the wheels of car. With a battery electric vehicle 90% makes it to the wheels.


There's a good reason why Musk calls them "Fool Cells", and why VW has turned away from them too. This, by the way, was in one of the videos you linked.
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Old 08-15-2022, 12:10 AM   #194
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You should stop watching YouTube promotional videos, and retrain your dog to bring you a high school physics text book instead of his dish.


Ask where the hydrogen comes from. This was discussed here https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/...&postcount=123 and in previous posts in that thread. Even if the hydrogen is "created" from renewable power sources, only 20% of energy to create the hydrogen makes it to the electric motor driving the wheels of car. With a battery electric vehicle 90% makes it to the wheels.


There's a good reason why Musk calls them "Fool Cells", and why VW has turned away from them too. This, by the way, was in one of the videos you linked.
You asked… I didn’t expect to turn a lightbulb on in your brain. I responded and I should not have. My bad.
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Old 08-15-2022, 06:26 AM   #195
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Earlier there was a discussion raised about how far the average person drives their car and the feasibility of EV.

It would be interesting to put a percentage to how much energy that represents with regard to you or your family's total energy consumption. The simple ones that come to mind are heating, cooling, and home electricity. My wife lives West of Chicago and is complaining about the price of gasoline for her 30+ MPG car and annual 6,000 mile use. Compared to her natural gas consumption to heat her townhouse and the electric bill for everything else, the gasoline consumption seems insignificant. While an electric car would make sense for her, before delving into where her electricity comes from (coal, nuke, natural gas, etc.) removing that petroleum portion of her total consumption doesn't seem real significant. Has anyone seen credible numbers for what portion of our energy consumption is personal automotive?

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Old 08-15-2022, 06:37 AM   #196
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what portion of our energy consumption is personal automotive?
Saul Griffiths analysed this and much more, both for the US ("Electrify") and "The Big Switch", Australia. I'm on board, but I will look for this tomorrow when back on land. I think your guesstimate ("the gasoline consumption seems insignificant") is accurate, and her car use is on the low side of average, too, at 6,000 miles/annum. Great question.
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Old 08-15-2022, 06:43 AM   #197
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That’s a really case by case question. Slept over at my daughters house to watch kids as thy went to Red Sox yankee night game.
Their house is conventional, central Massachusetts. Heating and cooling FF. She is 75% remote wok. He is a teacher so 100% commute (~30-45 m). Two full size SUVs as typical for families with kids. Transport probably ~10% of hydrocarbon release but life100% hydrocarbon.
We live in a zero footprint house. Main transport a diesel. Wife’s gasoline. Boat diesel is the majority of hydrocarbon release. SUVs a close second. Transport a 100% of HC release now we switched to all battery yard and house tools.
Due to limitations of pure EV next cycle of vehicles will be one EV(local,activities) one hybrid pickup for off grid and distance.
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Old 08-15-2022, 06:50 AM   #198
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That’s a really case by case question. Slept over at my daughters house to watch kids as thy went to Red Sox yankee night game.
Their house is conventional, central Massachusetts. Heating and cooling FF. She is 75% remote wok. He is a teacher so 100% commute (~30-45 m). Two full size SUVs as typical for families with kids. Transport probably ~10% of hydrocarbon release but life100% hydrocarbon.
We live in a zero footprint house. Main transport a diesel. Wife’s gasoline. Boat diesel is the majority of hydrocarbon release. SUVs a close second. Transport a 100% of HC release now we switched to all battery yard and house tools.
Due to limitations of pure EV next cycle of vehicles will be one EV (local,activities) one hybrid pickup for off grid and distance.
Yard and house tools use 100% clean, renewably generated electric energy for charging?
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Old 08-15-2022, 07:15 AM   #199
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In our case, yes. We use only rechargeable tools (much safer on the water, too) these days. And we make our own power and pump what we don't use back into the grid. We have 20 large panels and a largish 5Kw inverter, and a meter that can run in both directions (utility company buys back at 1/10th what we pay to use power). We only use heaters, dishwasher, and washing machine when the sun is shining (and the associated app tells us exactly what we are producing). Since installation two years ago, electricity bills have gone from $1,800/quarter to a low of $19/quarter. Zero strain in making the small rearrangements in use timings that produce these kinds of changes, too
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Old 08-15-2022, 12:18 PM   #200
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You asked… I didn’t expect to turn a lightbulb on in your brain. I responded and I should not have. My bad.

As a teacher, I would think you would be interested in educating others and me about why hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are the answer to transportation energy needs. Some pretty good arguments have been put forth explaining why they are not such a great alternative to plug in electric cars, principally because of the energy cost to create the fuel. And saying "Goolge it" isn't teaching, it's a cop out. I have looked into it, as have others, and come to a different conclusion. This is the point where adults engage in a discussion/debate, yet you are unwilling/unable to defend your position. So at this point I just dismiss it as uninformed and unsupported.
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