why boat insurance sucks

[rsn48]

What I am posting is release of a video from the Wynn's - full time sailing couple travelling extensively - with their problems finding boat insurers that will cover them and allow them to live the lifestyle they have been living. Its all explained in the video. And note, this is problems boaters are experiencing every year full timing. They will cover their experience, their past, and documenting what they have done. I think you will enjoy:

[Note: the topic head is a copy and paste from the title of their video]

 

[Benthic2]

that was just a 17 minute commercial for their sponsor.

 

[psneeld]

If they truly just learned to sail and got into boating 6 years ago, I wouldn't recommend selling them insurance either.

 

[slowgoesit]

If they truly just learned to sail and got into boating 6 years ago, I wouldn't recommend selling them insurance either.

Actually, they DID just get into sailing 6 years ago, then hired a professional skipper to train them both, satisfied their insurance requirements, did several trips in the Keys, and throughout the Bahamas, then through the Caribbean to to Panama, through the Canal, down to Ecuador, then to French Polynesia, Bora Bora, then to and around Tonga (I probably missed some destinations). Something just short of 20k miles in that 6 years. They are smart, listen well to advice, and do it right. If I were an insurance company that offered insurance for their navigation area, I'd have NO problem insuring them! JMHO

 

[psneeld]

Actually, they DID just get into sailing 6 years ago, then hired a professional skipper to train them both, satisfied their insurance requirements, did several trips in the Keys, and throughout the Bahamas, then through the Caribbean to to Panama, through the Canal, down to Ecuador, then to French Polynesia, Bora Bora, then to and around Tonga (I probably missed some destinations). Something just short of 20k miles in that 6 years. They are smart, listen well to advice, and do it right. If I were an insurance company that offered insurance for their navigation area, I'd have NO problem insuring them! JMHO

People who have sailed around the world are considered experts by many boaters.


They do lectures afterwards on safety, fire at sea, damage control, storm avoidance, etc...etc....


Yet the question is, have they done any of it for real? Or is it just repeated info they acquired before going? The trip is somewhat inconsequential. You see posts all the time on here by people with lot's of years or miles, but have never been on a burning, sinking, storm stricken boat.


I have 60 years of experience from prams to ships. All around the world. I still don't have any ocean crossing experience on small vessels...but I have been on burning, sinking vessels...and I gotta tell you...it's way more than what I saw taught in safety at sea seminars. I don't even feel qualified to take off on a yacht and cross oceans. Maybe it's because of how many commercial and experienced yacthsmen I have plucked from the ocean or assisted in some way before their possible demise.


It's one thing to have all kinds of book knowledge before you go and yes it helps a lot....but there's something more that really makes one "experienced".


Ask any new to the field Second Lieutenant in a combat situation about their training, then ask the combat experienced Sargent.


Insurance isn't only about the nice days cruising, it's what one does in 30 seconds or several hours when the world turns into something you have never seen before...or even anything close.


I am not saying people shouldn't venture forth and grow....but how and whether you are a good insurance risk are in a different discussion in my mind.

 

[Hippocampus]

In the past the vendors would let me choose my crew, when I left, and where I’d go. I’d call my insurance broker tell them my general plans and go. Knock on wood have no claims. I might be asked to pay for a rider but that’s it. I was allowed to double hand and even single hand if I choose to do so. Now none of that is true.
Before leaving I need to submit the resumes of my crew. The insurance company then approves them and doesn’t accept my judgment alone. Have had several occasions crew couldn’t make it at the last minute. Weather window was open so made other plans and left. Then doing the right safe thing left me uninsured for that passage. I’m told how many crew I must have. The insurance doesn’t accept my judgment on what’s necessary. I’ve been forced to carry live lumber for that reason. I’m told the confines of the hurricane zone and the duration of the hurricane season. It seems with the MMCC changes in the shoulder seasons their judgment doesn’t come close to mine.
I use to insure the boat. Now that’s really difficult. Rather I have owner operator insurance. That’s a PIA. I can’t loan the boat to a friend or have the yard or delivery crew move her without insurance preapproval. Some times due to weather or mechanical failures you need to move fast. Phone calls don’t serve and can only be done in business hours. Internet helps but still creates a time lag assuming you even have internet. So you end up doing what’s rational, safe and prudent even when it’s in violation of the fine print in the policy.

 

[markbarendt]

You were young and inexperienced once too psneeld.

Somebody took a risk on you at some point.

 

[Dougcole]

It will be interesting to see if the rising cost and availability of insurance drives down the price of used boats in the future.


As for the video, the Wynns used to bug me, but they have grown on me now. They go to amazing places and have really progressed as boaters.

 

[psneeld]

You were young and inexperienced once too psneeld.

Somebody took a risk on you at some point.

Yes and I paid for it as higher insurance or it was a PIA to get insured and didn't whine about it like the underqualified people in the video..


As far as boats....lets see if I was qualified to run big, expensive boats around the world.....


I bought a 40 foot 60,000 dollar trawler (3rd liveaboard) after starting in 8 foot prams at about 6 (so 60 years experience), got about 50,000 miles on small boats (up to 28 feet) inshore and out 50 or so miles before I was in college, joined the USCG and sailed on ships for 23 years and have owned 2 liveaboards along the way from FL to NJ to AL to AK, have a record or 20+ years saving people from boating disasters, another 15 or so teaching captains licensing, boating safety and running commercial vessel operations including salvage, firefighting, towing, ungrounding, etc..etc....


Also invited to guest speak at Trawler Fests, US NAVY Annapolis Safety at Sea Seminars, write for West Marine Advisor on safety gear. 5 or more years owning my own business delivering yachts. Also 5 years or more hands on vessel training.


Have 20,000+ miles in the last 8 years cruising the trawler up and down the ACIW.


Zero boat claims in 60 years, commercial or recreational.


Furuno, Raymarine, and Simrad factory trained on installing and troubleshooting marine electronics the 3 years I worked for a Marine Electronics firm.


3 years as a yard tech and part time mechanic for one of the largest Sea Ray dealerships on the east coast.


This is all a waste as more have always said...evey time I post my resume" (which the above is still only part of)...who cares?


So yeah...who cares....if I was the insurance company...no I wouldn't insure them either.


Big difference in doing something....and being good/safe doing it....and knowing enough to know the difference.

 

[Dougcole]

I tend to agree with most everything PSneeld says (scary, I know, lol) as he is, in my opinion, one of the most knowledgeable and experienced posters on this board.



I get it that HE wouldn't insure them, but he is not an underwriter or an insurance company. Insurance is all about mitigating risk vs. the premium charged. If everyone had to have PSNeeld's quite impressive resume to get their boat insured then almost no one would have insurance. I dare say there wouldn't be a recreational boating industry in the United States at all, at least not in its current form. And that would mean that people like PSneeld (and me, for that matter) wouldn't have had an outlet to get the experience they currently have that qulifies them for offshore coverage. Kind of a catch 22.


My dad retired from Allstate after 35 years with the company, at one point he had more boats insured than any other agent in the United States. My older brother took over his agency. I'm far from an expert, but I do know a little bit about it. Insurance companies look at risk vs reward. They charge you as much as they think they need to in order to offset what they perceive as your potential for an expensive claim. In some cases, the risk may be so high they won't insure you at all. That's not just for boats BTW, try buying a house in Florida in the "V" zone and get back to me about your insurance costs.


Only have a few months of boating experience but want to cross oceans? I expect you are going to have to pay more than PSneeld would.

 

[BandB]

Insurers make decisions for many reasons and one is experience with similar boaters. They consider all the attributes of the boat and boater and that includes finances, credit worthiness, boat, location and lifestyle. I think lifestyle of the persons mentioned would play a role in their decision. Some aspects we don't normally think of such as servicing a claim.

Insurers have done more for safety in boating than anyone as we have no universal licensing of small boat operators and we have no inspections of small boats. With no regulatory standards to meet, then the burden has fallen to the insurance industry. Not ideal, but better than nothing.

I know it's difficult for many to get and maintain insurance. However, if one simply can't get any insurance, there's likely a reason and it's highly unlikely to be disclosed by the uninsurable. We only get part of the story.

Keep this in mind, Insurers make money by Insuring. When they choose not to insure, they have reasons.

 

[psneeld]

Only have a few months of boating experience but want to cross oceans? I expect you are going to have to pay more than PSneeld would.

Please excuse me for cutting out a lot of good post but this is all I was trying to say...with my big mouth of course blowing it up....


Not only pay more, but struggling with insurance companies that place a lot of restrictions on certain levels of experience and some that refuse to insure it at all.


If I had a blog and complained about not being able to get insurance....my friends that know my backgound would say "holy cow, what do they want". 6 years total experience is like insuring a teenage driver with drivers ed and a solo trip across country. What about city traffic? Icy roads? etc????


Heck I DO struggle with insurance too. I had to switch companies and switch my "liveaboard" status to "fulltimer" in my RV to get liability off the boat/out of the RV. Total BS when it comes to "hurricanes"...but insurance companies make a lot of money by not caring about the "extreme" insured...only the great mass.

 

[Hippocampus]

But there’s a disconnect. I don’t have PS experience but I’ve done more Marion to Bermuda or Newport to Bermuda as captain or navigator or both then my fingers and toes.
Have done innumerable Newport or Hampton to BVI or Antigua and back. Have tens of thousands of blue water (greater than 200m from landfall)miles on my own boats as captain under my keel. More squalls, gales and a few storms on passage then I want to remember. Currently have no formal tickets but believe I have more experience and judgment than the majority of self attested captains with US tickets. Do do a diesel course, a weather course and a SAS every few years. Always trying to learn
There’s no way I’m going to put my life and a $1/2-1m of my dollars at risk stupidly nor $1 to 3M of someone else’s money at risk.
Then to have an insurance company look at a self stated sailing resume submitted by prospective crew and tell me who to take is ridiculous. I throughly vet crew. I’ve learned to ignore US captain licenses. I’ve learned to ignore coastal commercial experience. Running a water taxi, doing coastal deliveries, or running a service boat is meaningful experience and an important skill set but totally irrelevant to passage making in most cases. Truly believe for the vast majority of passage making cruisers the owner/operator carrying the policy has better judgment than the office worker with no sea time who ends up passing judgment on the vessel and crew involved.

BTW we generally take 3 (me and 2 others each of which can independently deal with any situation that comes up) and then a fourth who is a newbie to bluewater. Feel beyond insurance requirements it’s our obligation to take newbies along otherwise the sport will die over time. But I truly miss being alone on a boat doing passage. With all the crap in the water even not being forced to insure because of a bank loan it’s too risky to self insure or do liability only. Don’t want any financial consideration to effect safety judgments.glad I had that opportunity which is now gone. Do dislike doing mom and pop passages is pretty much gone as well for many people. We still do them with the supernumeraries just not in the rotation or as doubles with me and the bride.

 

[markbarendt]

Yes and I paid for it as higher insurance or it was a PIA to get insured and didn't whine about it like the underqualified people in the video..


As far as boats....lets see if I was qualified to run big, expensive boats around the world.....


I bought a 40 foot 60,000 dollar trawler (3rd liveaboard) after starting in 8 foot prams at about 6 (so 60 years experience), got about 50,000 miles on small boats (up to 28 feet) inshore and out 50 or so miles before I was in college, joined the USCG and sailed on ships for 23 years and have owned 2 liveaboards along the way from FL to NJ to AL to AK, have a record or 20+ years saving people from boating disasters, another 15 or so teaching captains licensing, boating safety and running commercial vessel operations including salvage, firefighting, towing, ungrounding, etc..etc....


Also invited to guest speak at Trawler Fests, US NAVY Annapolis Safety at Sea Seminars, write for West Marine Advisor on safety gear. 5 or more years owning my own business delivering yachts. Also 5 years or more hands on vessel training.


Have 20,000+ miles in the last 8 years cruising the trawler up and down the ACIW.


Zero boat claims in 60 years, commercial or recreational.


Furuno, Raymarine, and Simrad factory trained on installing and troubleshooting marine electronics the 3 years I worked for a Marine Electronics firm.


3 years as a yard tech and part time mechanic for one of the largest Sea Ray dealerships on the east coast.


This is all a waste as more have always said...evey time I post my resume" (which the above is still only part of)...who cares?


So yeah...who cares....if I was the insurance company...no I wouldn't insure them either.


Big difference in doing something....and being good/safe doing it....and knowing enough to know the difference.

All well and good but... The cruelest gods are the ones who give you hope.

The insurers and brokers have set the expectations the Wynn’s have. I spent 20 years as a licensed insurance agent, I’ve seen the games played to make a sale.

Like the Wynn’s I got a similar story from all professionals concerned when buying my boat. It seems to be a common experience.

The Wynn’s are relating real experience of many of us who want to spend our lives on the water, we may not have spent 20, 30, or more years on the water but we have a dream.

When people sell me one thing and deliver another I get grumpy too.

 

[psneeld]

But there’s a disconnect. I don’t have PS experience but I’ve done more Marion to Bermuda or Newport to Bermuda as captain or navigator or both then my fingers and toes.
Have done innumerable Newport or Hampton to BVI or Antigua and back. Have tens of thousands of blue water (greater than 200m from landfall)miles on my own boats as captain under my keel. More squalls, gales and a few storms on passage then I want to remember. Currently have no formal tickets but believe I have more experience and judgment than the majority of self attested captains with US tickets. Do do a diesel course, a weather course and a SAS every few years. Always trying to learn
There’s no way I’m going to put my life and a $1/2-1m of my dollars at risk stupidly nor $1 to 3M of someone else’s money at risk.
Then to have an insurance company look at a self stated sailing resume submitted by prospective crew and tell me who to take is ridiculous. I throughly vet crew. I’ve learned to ignore US captain licenses. I’ve learned to ignore coastal commercial experience. Running a water taxi, doing coastal deliveries, or running a service boat is meaningful experience and an important skill set but totally irrelevant to passage making in most cases. Truly believe for the vast majority of passage making cruisers the owner/operator carrying the policy has better judgment than the office worker with no sea time who ends up passing judgment on the vessel and crew involved.

BTW we generally take 3 (me and 2 others each of which can independently deal with any situation that comes up) and then a fourth who is a newbie to bluewater. Feel beyond insurance requirements it’s our obligation to take newbies along otherwise the sport will die over time. But I truly miss being alone on a boat doing passage. With all the crap in the water even not being forced to insure because of a bank loan it’s too risky to self insure or do liability only. Don’t want any financial consideration to effect safety judgments.glad I had that opportunity which is now gone. Do dislike doing mom and pop passages is pretty much gone as well for many people. We still do them with the supernumeraries just not in the rotation or as doubles with me and the bride.

Not sure if I missed it.

Sinking boat? Fire aboard? Salvage experience?

Solo cruise and someone should insure you?

 

[psneeld]

All well and good but... The cruelest gods are the ones who give you hope.

The insurers and brokers have set the expectations the Wynn’s have. I spent 20 years as a licensed insurance agent, I’ve seen the games played to make a sale.

Like the Wynn’s I got a similar story from all professionals concerned when buying my boat. It seems to be a common experience.

The Wynn’s are relating real experience of many of us who want to spend our lives on the water, we may not have spent 20, 30, or more years on the water but we have a dream.

When people sell me one thing and deliver another I get grumpy too.

I think I get what you are saying....It is true that the US is the land of dreams and people think they are entitled to things they have not come close to earning.

 

[markbarendt]

I think I get what you are saying....It is true that the US is the land of dreams and people think they are entitled to things they have not come close to earning.

I don't think I or the Wynn's are looking for the same deal you might get with your 60 years of experience.

The difference in experience between someone with a fresh bareboat cert like the Wynn's when they first started and the Wynn's of today that have gone 20000 miles, crossed the Pacific and lived aboard for 6 years is huge.

Yes, they are still newbs compared to you or my brother-in-law with 37 years on seagoing tugs. So what.

I'd say they (like I) feel entitled to what they've been told to expect by the professionals involved.

 

[psneeld]

I don't think I or the Wynn's are looking for the same deal you might get with your 60 years of experience.

The difference in experience between someone with a fresh bareboat cert like the Wynn's when they first started and the Wynn's of today that have gone 20000 miles, crossed the Pacific and lived aboard for 6 years is huge.

Yes, they are still newbs compared to you or my brother-in-law with 37 years on seagoing tugs. So what.

I'd say they (like I) feel entitled to what they've been told to expect by the professionals involved.

And just what is that you expect?


What hasn't changed in the last 5-10 years in all of our lives?


The fact they are getting screwed by the Corona Virus travel issues?


Maybe they should look into the laws about financial harm because of the virus. Possibly an avenue.


The Wynn's statement that insurance would get easier and cheaper through the years with no limitations on that statement kinda shows their naitivity...at least in the boating world. If they were getting that from brokers...then you tell me what went wrong with their expectations?


Wherever I have been, plain old dock talk would suggest that one has to keep chasing insurance to keep it or get a better rate.

I thought they ultimately got insurance and things straightened out.

I wish I had thought to make money doing net stuff every time my life got a little rough. Good on them.

 

[rsn48]

The Wynn's probably have more experience than 90 % of all boaters. Because their catamaran is their home and not a boy toy encourages them to make the conservative decisions. If I asked how many have been through the Panama canal, maybe 3 % or less here have had that experience on their own boat I'm betting. Its not so much going through the canal that matters (you have to hire guys help take your boat through), its the getting there and leaving that requires more experience.

For you sailors in the crowd, I wonder just how much experience Larry Pardey had before leaving on his adventures?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/28/obituaries/larry-pardey-dead.html

Its one thing to have 25 years experience but you only use your boat 2 months a year and another to use their boat full time covering thousands of miles with four years. Although they are claiming 6 years experience, that is a bit of a lie, probably one I'd tell as well to get the insurance. They went home to visit family (in Texas?) stayed for a while, and while returning to their boat on the hard in Tonga (where their clip was made) they got caught in Fiji and became Covid refuges. Nothing was allowed in and out of Tonga. They were there for a number of months. There are videos of them working on their boat repairing and replacing items that had taken a hit due to on the hard storage in the tropics.

As for the advertisements, this is how they make their money - from Vlogging and subscribers to their channel, etc. I just watched a Youtube of the top 20 full time sailors and they came in number 3. They began their Vlogging life when they lived full time in RV's some smaller then larger motorhomes. They travelled all over North America and I believe their last trip in their motorhome before moving onto their boat was to Alaska and back.

And if you are curious about composting toilets as I was, they have the definitive Youtubes on these critters. These Youtubes came from their living in their motorhome and tearing out the traditional toilet and holding tank.

 

[Hippocampus]

Guest we’re on different pages PSN.

Helped a friend deliver a Hinckley from southwest harbor Maine to Duxbury MA. Was caught in a north easter due to faulty NOAA report (they didn’t report they had inactive buoys). Boat had undergone major restoration. Chain was left in a milk carton. It sheared engine intake at the flange after weather kicked up. Situation discovered when floorboards were floating. Water was freezing. 4 on board. SAR grounded due to weather. Sails blew out. Yes, we did eventually control flooding. We were declared overdue. We did self rescue and independently was able to return to Situate MA. No loss of life although brief hospitalization to treat hypothermia in one and dehydration in others. My only sinking boat.

Have had to use the fire blanket once in the galley. My only fire.

No salvage experience except as the standby vessel once. My job is to prevent that need. Respect your skills in providing it.

Noted that the ability to get insurance and be allowed to solo is a thing of the past. Thought I made that clear. My bad if I didn’t.

 

[psneeld]

I guess we are...


It's when you post stuff like this that I am not sure what to think.


"Currently have no formal tickets but believe I have more experience and judgment than the majority of self attested captains with US tickets. Do do a diesel course, a weather course and a SAS every few years. Always trying to learn
There’s no way I’m going to put my life and a $1/2-1m of my dollars at risk stupidly nor $1 to 3M of someone else’s money at risk.
Then to have an insurance company look at a self stated sailing resume submitted by prospective crew and tell me who to take is ridiculous. I throughly vet crew. I’ve learned to ignore US captain licenses. I’ve learned to ignore coastal commercial experience. Running a water taxi, doing coastal deliveries, or running a service boat is meaningful experience and an important skill set but totally irrelevant to passage making in most cases."


Yet your sinking experience posted was on a coastal boat move. Fire or sinking in 50 feet of water or 5000 feet of water can be pretty much the same....just one may allow you to let insurance handle the fire while you climb into the life raft because the helo is on the way. Yet having fought the fire with the option being near shore can teach you a lot before you have that fire on a long passage way offshore.


So keep bashing coastal experience and licensed captains...I will finish this and leave you with one of my thoughts.....


.....I have looked down seen more than a few scared looking but extremely competent and experienced seaman (both commercial and rec) coming up on my helo hoist cable. Many, many more were never found.

 

[Larry M]

All they are doing is selling views IMHO. We spent 13 years cruising outside the US and we were always able to get insurance. We did have to have a crew of three for our first off shore passage. Surveys were always part of the deal. Once we did a survey 12 months early knowing we wouldn't be able to get one where we were going. Another survey was by a Loyd's surveyor. No NAMS or SAMS accreditation for him. He had never done a recreational vessel before. We worked with our agent, underwriters and the surveyor and got what was needed.

These two are rookies or they are shopping policies every year and haven't built a relationship with a good broker and his access to various underwriters. I know the market has tighten up but others are out there and able to secure insurance.

 

[BandB]

All they are doing is selling views IMHO. We spent 13 years cruising outside the US and we were always able to get insurance. We did have to have a crew of three for our first off shore passage. Surveys were always part of the deal. Once we did a survey 12 months early knowing we wouldn't be able to get one where we were going. Another survey was by a Loyd's surveyor. No NAMS or SAMS accreditation for him. He had never done a recreational vessel before. We worked with our agent, underwriters and the surveyor and got what was needed.

These two are rookies or they are shopping policies every year and haven't built a relationship with a good broker and his access to various underwriters. I know the market has tighten up but others are out there and able to secure insurance.

The truth remains we don't know why they might have been turned down. We only know their showboating.

 

[SteveK]

Two people each have one month experience on the same boat in the same seas.
One person gained one month in one month
The other gained one month during one year.
Who has more experience?
Hint.
They do not have the same experiences

 

[psneeld]

Two people each have one month experience on the same boat in the same seas.
One person gained one month in one month
The other gained one month during one year.
Who has more experience?
Hint.
They do not have the same experiences

More experience about what?

 

[hollywood8118]

Interesting thread for sure.
PS and I diverge a bit on the Wynns, when they started I feel they were a pretty bit risk asinsurance goes, now having learned their boat and having a lot of miles/time/experiences on their boat I believe they are a decent risk. Are they hamming it up for youtube.. you bet.. drama collects subscribers.
I also agree with Hippo that bean counters dont have a real clue regarding crew for offshore work. I have had plenty of crew I absolutely didnt trust to keep the boat safe that insurance company's thoughtvwere fine. I also agree with the statement that a USCG ticket can be a farce depending on the actual experience a captain has vs. His/her ability to pass a test once. I know folks with 100t ratings that I wouldn't trust with a row boat on a lake. Those folks shouldn't bring down the other professionals like PS but the USCG and lots of insurance company's consider them equals.. total bullshit in my view.
PSneed is obviously a professional with vast experience from both the SAR side then his commercial work, its got to be hard to look at the youtube sailers and not smirk at the way they bumble along in thier learning process.
I view these video sailors as entertainment.. and some are not too bad on the eyes ( the Admiral seems a bit too happy to watch the LaVagabonde chap).
If they accomplish nothing more than to help launch a new generation of offshore sailors they have done a service to us all.
HOLLYWOOD

 

[Hippocampus]

Great post. BTW I’d love to have PS as crew or crew for him. It’s obvious I could learn so much from him.

Totally agree with him coastal is ever bit as dangerous as offshore. But still think the risks are somewhat different as is the skill set. Also you could have been doing something a better and safer way for decades and have gotten away with it. You need to keep learning and be open to new ideas regardless of your past experiences.

Other than the technical blogs don’t watch YouTube videos or blogs.

 

[psneeld]

I really am not smirking or not condoning what they are doing. Have at it...it's their lives and I spent most of mine helping beginners and pros out of bad situations...often at risk to me and others...


.....and I judged those I helped on a case by case basis. Just because you have miles under your belt helps one's insurability...but doesn't keep you from being high risk till the experience piles up is certain areas.


As far as them making money and conveying interest and info to other boaters.... I was impressed with a lot of their work as far as attention to detail and they aren't hard to watch like some. So no issue with probably much of their stuff...but them bitching abut insurance, especially the COVID hindrances to me was a waste of their talents....it's frustrating for all of us...just thought it a waste of valuable air time. But again it's their gig and I can continue to happily live without them.



I could slice and dice the parts about who is or isn't qualified based on "titles"....but that's true in every walk of life....this just happens to be a boating forum... so yeah...a lot of licensed guys might be sensitive. The stuff about coastal or specific captain duties and how it doesn't count towards offshore experience?????? ....that can be compared just like saying a voyaging sailboater might be totally unqualified to voyage in a power vessel. Or voyage through high latitudes with only south seas experience...ad nauseum...


If one starts getting picky about titles and what is real or good experience indicators...one can expect pushback from all sorts of directions. If one steps back from the basic title, captains licenses have a pretty good breadth of suggested experience if you look at what they actually are and what it takes to get them.

 

[markbarendt]

And just what is that you expect?

Straight answers maybe?

When I bought my boat late last year, an all cash deal, I did my due diligence and provided my boating resume, got a quote on the exact boat I'd made an offer on, told the agent exactly what I planned to do with the boat and where it was going to reside, how it was going to get there, had it on the hard with people ready to address the issues we found in the survey, provided my credit report info and all that jazz...

Got the quote back, and the word from the agent that said, yeah we'd be happy to insure you and the boat for $x,xxx.

Ticked that last box on my due diligence list and finalized the sale on the strength of that answer.

Takes a couple weeks to sort out the details and get it through escrow, title work and such.

Send in a copy of the bill of sale to the agent and the next day, as I remember, the insurance company essentially says, "Sorry, we didn't really mean it, you don't have enough experience".

WTF? As far as I can see, the only thing that changed in the whole bloody situation was that a new bean counter one floor up had to do the final sign-off.

Had to scramble to find a new deal, it worked out but what a f------ pain in the arse at a point in the deal where there's no choice but to find something.

I have seen this general scenario play out over and over in my life in home and auto, and in my client's lives in my work in the health insurance business for over 20 years, and in stories from my buddy agents in P&C, and like the Wynn's, I'm sick of it.

 

[psneeld]

True...can't argue with not having the facts up front or the rules change during the game. Fair enough. But..... in just about every walk in my life there is change after there is no turning back. Boat insurance? What if his great pension was pulled because his company filed bankruptcy? Boat insurance may be just on a long list of issues.


And weren't some of their options pulled because of the Virus? They could be a dockmate's wife stuck overseas for a year, away from her home. At least they are on theirs.


Yeah, boat insurance sucks...I'm just not the type to put it on global media.