Hurricane Rider Fun...

[Osprey69]

We are at Ortega Landing in Jax.

Got a quote last year for the rider and I cant find it, but my memory was that it was not nearly as restrictive or expensive.

Just got quoted again, and for the privilege of pay 3X as much premium for hurricane coverage, we are compelled to haul the boat with a $37,000 deductible.

Its less about the money but the hauling. I will talk with the local yards, but as a non-yard customer, I can see us at the very bottom of the list.

Don't blame the broker, as they are experienced, but has the market changed that much in a year? Apparently so.

Or are we alone?

 

[Comodave]

Time to move out of the hurricane zone???

 

[Choices]

Your in Jax, should not have a problem going up river.bplenty of options.

 

[BandB]

We are at Ortega Landing in Jax.

Got a quote last year for the rider and I cant find it, but my memory was that it was not nearly as restrictive or expensive.

Just got quoted again, and for the privilege of pay 3X as much premium for hurricane coverage, we are compelled to haul the boat with a $37,000 deductible.

Its less about the money but the hauling. I will talk with the local yards, but as a non-yard customer, I can see us at the very bottom of the list.

Don't blame the broker, as they are experienced, but has the market changed that much in a year? Apparently so.

Or are we alone?

Hauling in Jacksonville is a stupid requirement. Did you not get the rider last year and keep it?

Market changes but more often it's a thing with one insurer or one broker or some aspect of the entire insuring. No two are the same. Are you dealing with a broker or direct with an insurer? Best to get all the coverage including the rider, if needed, up front.

We have no rider so no change. Coverage all in the policy.

 

[Larry M]

Port 32/Ortega Landing, in the past, has been considered safe by many major marine insurance companies. It’s a relatively new marina with floating docks designed with tall concrete piles, it’s situated between 2 bridges and 20 plus miles from the Atlantic. The office use to have a professionally written letter to that effect. Haul-yards yards are at a premium in the area because of limited space. They are working yards. For long term dry storage, Green Cove Springs is probably the closest.

 

[Osprey69]

Hauling in Jacksonville is a stupid requirement. Did you not get the rider last year and keep it?

Market changes but more often it's a thing with one insurer or one broker or some aspect of the entire insuring. No two are the same. Are you dealing with a broker or direct with an insurer? Best to get all the coverage including the rider, if needed, up front.

We have no rider so no change. Coverage all in the policy.

We talked about that and the broker (experienced and known on this site) recommended we wait until our plans firmed up and not pay the additional premium until needed.

 

[Osprey69]

Port 32/Ortega Landing, in the past, has been considered safe by many major marine insurance companies. It’s a relatively new marina with floating docks designed with tall concrete piles, it’s situated between 2 bridges and 20 plus miles from the Atlantic. The office use to have a professionally written letter to that effect. Haul-yards yards are at a premium in the area because of limited space. They are working yards. For long term dry storage, Green Cove Springs is probably the closest.

Yup.

The history here supports it is one of the best marinas to stay put in.

I will visit the haul-out yards to discuss capability.

We live on board so long-term haul out not an option.

I think we are being caught in a underwriting shift.

 

[klee wyck]

Yup.



I think we are being caught in a underwriting shift.

I have this same sense, and I am changing behavior accordingly. On a cost to insure value basis, current underwriting cost to insure value in a boat I own is 50x the cost (per 1000) of insuring value on dry land. Premiums indicate that underwriters expect 1 of every 100 boats to be a total loss.
I have already changed one of my boats to liability only and will likely also do the other. An insurance premium is the cost of transferring risk to a third party and in my case I feel like that cost has become a poor value for now, and will choose to assume the risk myself. I will retain liability insurance of course, but that part of these premiums has seemed to remain reasonable from some underwriters.

 

[hmason]

I am insured with BoatUS/Geico as a fulltime liveaboard staying in FL, in the water, year round. It is quite expensive with a high "named storm" deductible. Next year I will probably move out of the hurricane area for the hurricane season. It's curious to me that the Carolinas are not in the hurricane area.

 

[Shrew]

It's curious to me that the Carolinas are not in the hurricane area.

'The Carolina's?? Or South Carolina??

The Outer banks and Florida get hit frequently. Northern Ga. and South Carolina get hit much more infrequently, statistically speaking.

 

[O C Diver]

I've always moved my boat North during hurricane season. The savings paid for a great deal of cruising expenses.

For the remaining years I have left in boat ownership, I couldn't imagine being without hull insurance. If you want to look at it over 20 or 30 years, the numbers might work. IMO, the cost is fairly small in the total cost of boat ownership for an active cruiser. Now if you own a dock queen, maybe it's time to sell.

Ted

 

[Besslb]

'The Carolina's?? Or South Carolina??

The Outer banks and Florida get hit frequently. Northern Ga. and South Carolina get hit much more infrequently, statistically speaking.

We get hit so frequently that many of the marinas close to the coast require you to vacate when your marina is in the “cone” of a named storm…any named storm. We have a few marinas that are hurricane holes….but not many. And getting on a boatyard’s haul out list for hurricanes is difficult and costs as much as a haul out to just be on a list to potentially get hauled out.

Make sure to ask any NC Marina what the hurricane requirements are prior to deciding to come this way. Back up plans may be needed if a storm is coming this way.

 

[CharlieO.]

We get hit so frequently that many of the marinas close to the coast require you to vacate when your marina is in the “cone” of a named storm…any named storm. We have a few marinas that are hurricane holes….but not many. And getting on a boatyard’s haul out list for hurricanes is difficult and costs as much as a haul out to just be on a list to potentially get hauled out.

Make sure to ask any NC Marina what the hurricane requirements are prior to deciding to come this way. Back up plans may be needed if a storm is coming this way.

Good info for us, we are considering going south in a couple years if we don't head west. I didn't know North Carolina would be that tough. Thanks.

 

[bgillroy]

You would be well served in today's challenging insurance environment by securing the expert advice and recommendations of a full lines marine insurance broker. You'll learn a bunch.

 

[Osprey69]

You would be well served in today's challenging insurance environment by securing the expert advice and recommendations of a full lines marine insurance broker. You'll learn a bunch.

As mentioned twice in my prior posts that is the first thing I did. And the broker is well known and well regarded on TF. So I am assuming it is not the brokers fault. But I will contact others at this point to verify.

 

[Besslb]

Good info for us, we are considering going south in a couple years if we don't head west. I didn't know North Carolina would be that tough. Thanks.

It’s not “that” bad…. Some storms come and go with little drama…
Some storms leave a mark……..but proper expectations on what marinas require when they do come is needed. . Our experience is here in New Bern, Morehead/ Beaufort/ Southport. Further north on the Pamlico and Albermerle Rivers might be different.

 

[Pau Hana]

Over the past 2 years. Markel has been requiring that vessels be hauled if in the area of their home marina OR move the vessel out of the path of destruction. If the vessel is left in the water in the area of the homeport during a named storm, there is no coverage.

 

[Mermaid]

I was one of those that got dropped by Geico when they severed their relationship with agents, and Geico would not entertain re-writing my policy until my policy with them expired and at that point we could begin the new process. That would leave me uninsured while going through the process, so no. My agent got me a new policy, and there was only ONE that would write it - that was Markel. I got the pleasure of paying over $5,000/year for windstorm coverage on a 40’ boat and then they forced me to sign an agreement that there was no coverage if the boat was not hauled out on land. I had no choice but to accept those terms. Now, I am in the process of trying to go back to Geico.

I DO have a haul out plan - I get hauled out from Aug. 1 until Nov. 1, which usually turns into mid November anyway. These past couple of days in Miami were pretty hairy knowing I had no insurance coverage if something bad happened. We came through the storm just fine. I really hate this Markel policy which forces me to agree to no coverage even for things beyond my control. What if, in the event of a storm barreling down my back that I get to the yard to haul out and the travel lift is broken? What if I get to the first lock on the river and the lock is broken? Sadly, there were zero other options at the time. I’m working to change that.

 

[Pau Hana]

I was one of those that got dropped by Geico when they severed their relationship with agents, and Geico would not entertain re-writing my policy until my policy with them expired and at that point we could begin the new process. That would leave me uninsured while going through the process, so no. My agent got me a new policy, and there was only ONE that would write it - that was Markel. I got the pleasure of paying over $5,000/year for windstorm coverage on a 40’ boat and then they forced me to sign an agreement that there was no coverage if the boat was not hauled out on land. I had no choice but to accept those terms. Now, I am in the process of trying to go back to Geico.

I DO have a haul out plan - I get hauled out from Aug. 1 until Nov. 1, which usually turns into mid November anyway. These past couple of days in Miami were pretty hairy knowing I had no insurance coverage if something bad happened. We came through the storm just fine. I really hate this Markel policy which forces me to agree to no coverage even for things beyond my control. What if, in the event of a storm barreling down my back that I get to the yard to haul out and the travel lift is broken? What if I get to the first lock on the river and the lock is broken? Sadly, there were zero other options at the time. I’m working to change that.

With so many markets electing to not offer coverage in Florida, it has indeed been hard insurance wise these past several years.

One of the reasons Markel is still offering coverage in CAT (catastrophic loss) zones is their haul out requirement. Actuarial data across the board shows that more damage happens to vessels left in the water (to the vessel or damage to other boats) than to vessels hauled.

So, their solution is to require that vessels be hauled if in their homeport location. If the vessel is moved out of the path of the storm, it does not necessarily need to be hauled.

 

[slowgoesit]

With so many markets electing to not offer coverage in Florida, it has indeed been hard insurance wise these past several years.

One of the reasons Markel is still offering coverage in CAT (catastrophic loss) zones is their haul out requirement. Actuarial data across the board shows that more damage happens to vessels left in the water (to the vessel or damage to other boats) than to vessels hauled.

So, their solution is to require that vessels be hauled if in their homeport location. If the vessel is moved out of the path of the storm, it does not necessarily need to be hauled.

Peter, it's crazy that they have that requirement, KNOWING that the number of insured boat (possibly even by THEM) exceeds the haul out capability/space that is available. So basically they are including a requirement that they know cannot be met in probably a majority of cases.

It's further exasperated by many marinas on the East Coast requiring you to remove your boat from the marina in the event of bad Wx. There is no possible way that there is haul out capacity for entire marinas worth of boats!

 

[rgano]

Over the past 2 years. Markel has been requiring that vessels be hauled if in the area of their home marina OR move the vessel out of the path of destruction. If the vessel is left in the water in the area of the homeport during a named storm, there is no coverage.

I use Markel for hull insurance without named storm coverage. Although my vessel is normally lifted in its own lift when not in use, the wreckage between the two boats in the photo shows what would have happened had I left Frolic in the lift on 10 October 2018 instead of mooring it in a preselected secluded canal. Even when I moored a 42-foot Grand Banks out here from 1990 to 2016, I never had named storm insurance because I am always able to secure the boat properly when storms approach, and there were a LOT of them. Living aboard should only make proper securing a higher level of certainty because you are always there to do it. After seeing the bowled over boats in the marina around the corner from me after the 2018 storm, I felt justified in NOT foolishly hauling in the face of a major storm. Even the local yard owner friend advised me to save my money years ago when I talked to him about spending the thousand or so bucks necessary just to get on the storm-haul list. I imagine the yards in Jax have a similar guaranteed haul program if you want to bet the ranch on hauling, but not for me.

 

[Sangraal]

Port 32/Ortega Landing, in the past, has been considered safe by many major marine insurance companies. It’s a relatively new marina with floating docks designed with tall concrete piles, it’s situated between 2 bridges and 20 plus miles from the Atlantic. The office use to have a professionally written letter to that effect. Haul-yards yards are at a premium in the area because of limited space. They are working yards. For long term dry storage, Green Cove Springs is probably the closest.

We were at Ortega Landing when Irma came a calling. By then a TS. An uninsured boat from the river dragged down onto us and caused over $38,000 of damage. The marina lost power with the storm surge but other than that was fine. Left there a few weeks ago and I can report that the number of anchored boats around the marina have increased significantly. Not wishing anyone harm but if you kayak around some of the boats the anchor gear is, let’s say, marginal. Good luck!

 

[timb7734]

Geico without contact from anyone, automatically renewed my policy June 1st with a premium reduction as well as a deductible reduction for the second year, and no haul out. Boat permanently berthed SW Florida.

 

[Pau Hana]

Peter, it's crazy that they have that requirement, KNOWING that the number of insured boat (possibly even by THEM) exceeds the haul out capability/space that is available. So basically they are including a requirement that they know cannot be met in probably a majority of cases.

It's further exasperated by many marinas on the East Coast requiring you to remove your boat from the marina in the event of bad Wx. There is no possible way that there is haul out capacity for entire marinas worth of boats!

Agreed, Scot- but it's a way that Markel continues to offer coverage in CAT zones instead of pulling out of those areas altogether. The ugly alternative would be to remove the haulout requirement and see rates exponentially increase...or pull out of Florida and leave the vessel owner to hope and pray that a storm doesn't hit them.

Please note that if the vessel is moved out of the storm's path, the haulout requirement does not necessarily apply...

 

[dannc]

...
Please note that if the vessel is moved out of the storm's path, the haulout requirement does not necessarily apply...

Hurricane paths are unpredictable even today. There was boat owner on Cruising Forum who was in South East Florida when one of the recent, big, storms was forecast to hit his area. He ran for it.

He went up to Stuart, crossed the lake, and found a hidey hole in west Florida, but the hurricane followed him and went right over the boat. If he had stayed where he was, the hurricane would have missed him.

I don't think he had any damage so it worked out for him. Though, I suspect the whole episode aged him a few years.

This might be an impossible question to answer, but would an insurance company pay out if one TRIED to move out of the predicted path of the storm but the storm followed the boat and generated a claim?

Thanks,
Dan

 

[rgano]

Hurricane paths are unpredictable even today. There was boat owner on Cruising Forum who was in South East Florida when one of the recent, big, storms was forecast to hit his area. He ran for it.

He went up to Stuart, crossed the lake, and found a hidey hole in west Florida, but the hurricane followed him and went right over the boat. If he had stayed where he was, the hurricane would have missed him.

I don't think he had any damage so it worked out for him. Though, I suspect the whole episode aged him a few years.

This might be an impossible question to answer, but would an insurance company pay out if one TRIED to move out of the predicted path of the storm but the storm followed the boat and generated a claim?

Thanks,
Dan

Being well inland cuts quite a bit off the top wind speeds of hurricanes. In some cases a near miss at the coast is as bad as a direct hit inland, and inland locations will most likely see no significant wave action.

 

[dannc]

Being well inland cuts quite a bit off the top wind speeds of hurricanes. In some cases a near miss at the coast is as bad as a direct hit inland, and inland locations will most likely see no significant wave action.

Yes but the point was the guy was trying to get out of the way of the storm and it followed him. If the insurance policy says haul out or get out of the path of the storm, and one tried to get out of the way, but the storm followed, hit the boat and caused damage, will the insurance pay out?

I know of another case where the boater thought they would be out of the path, tied up deep in mangroves, and right before landfall, a Cat 5 typhoon changed course and went right over the catamaran which flipped over. The owner was out of the path of the storm, took precautions anyway, yet he was nailed and I assume lost his boat.

Later,
Dan

 

[hmason]

Hurricane Dorian was projected to hit Stuart Fl dead on. We took our valuables and abandoned ship knowing we might never see her again. The storm changed paths and missed us completely. So much for my being out of the path of the storm.

 

[Osprey69]

Hurricane paths are unpredictable even today. There was boat owner on Cruising Forum who was in South East Florida when one of the recent, big, storms was forecast to hit his area. He ran for it.

He went up to Stuart, crossed the lake, and found a hidey hole in west Florida, but the hurricane followed him and went right over the boat. If he had stayed where he was, the hurricane would have missed him.

I don't think he had any damage so it worked out for him. Though, I suspect the whole episode aged him a few years.

This might be an impossible question to answer, but would an insurance company pay out if one TRIED to move out of the predicted path of the storm but the storm followed the boat and generated a claim?

Thanks,
Dan

Great question...paging Pete!

 

[rgano]

Yes but the point was the guy was trying to get out of the way of the storm and it followed him. If the insurance policy says haul out or get out of the path of the storm, and one tried to get out of the way, but the storm followed, hit the boat and caused damage, will the insurance pay out?

I know of another case where the boater thought they would be out of the path, tied up deep in mangroves, and right before landfall, a Cat 5 typhoon changed course and went right over the catamaran which flipped over. The owner was out of the path of the storm, took precautions anyway, yet he was nailed and I assume lost his boat.

Later,
Dan

I unnerstan your point. I was just adding that if you are going inland, things improve fast windwise unless one of those pesky tornados corners you. In the mangrove case, he was not by definition inland. Hope he got paid.