Conception dive boat fire

[diver dave]

Agreed. Even with “healthy” batteries being charged, fire/heat exposure will cause them to go unstable. So the fire investigators would have that near impossible mess to figure out.


OTOH, we know that there are increased risks associated with higher powered Li-ion batteries under charge and just post charge. There was a learning curve with laptop batteries, vaping devices, scooter batteries going unstable in some high risk areas. Even torpedoes, I might add.

In the end, there are far more electrical fires not caused by Li. But, if I was a betting man, thats my vote here. Diving scooters, handheld lights, etc have far less volume of manufacturing than cell phones and laptops. Driving the risk equation higher.

Two cruises ago, i had a swollen wifi cell router li ion batt! Swollen means gas pressure.

I have a steel broiler pan to use when charging aboard.

 

[Fletcher500]

A good friend was Captain of this boat in his younger days prior to attending a maritime academy to get his unlimited license. IE, many years prior to this fire. Very smart, capable guy, who knew the Northern Channel Islands as well as anyone. He currently has a boat in Santa Barbara and still goes out there often. These older fish and dive boats on the west coast are a different animal than our rec boats. Most crews do their best to ensure everyone’s safety, but their egress access in the sleeping quarters can be very poor. Everyone knows this, including the regulators. It’s not a business where people get rich, including the owners so major retrofits on their boats are a tough proposition. Its easy to make assertions regarding what should or should have been done from a computer keyboard, and that is often the case for any accident.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

A horrible tragedy. The crew claimed they never heard smoke alarms sounding, and yet the vessel, and alarms, were inspected prior to the fire. This remains a mystery, along with the actual cause.

I wrote about this here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/fire-are-you-and-your-vessel-prepared/

Here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/december-2020-newsletter/

And about smoke alarms just this past Friday here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/the-need-for-smoke-detectors-editorial-read-the-contract/

 

[battles2a5]

One of the guys on my team was on that boat with his wife. Such a terrible event, RIP to all those lost.

 

[garbler]

Nobody or any commission has found a single culprit and there may not be one smoking gun but subject vessel has apparently met all USCG requirements. The USCG and federal regs are written to engage older vessels as well as new so alleging older vessels are more prone to casualties is just plain wrong. Just as wrong as claiming new vessels are better built than older. If a vessel lacks current safety equipment or design features then the USCG will enforce it, pull the COI or restrict operations and territory.

Think about it a bit if you’re inclined. Building a passenger or any vessel that must remain fully watertight and yet provide immediate emergency evacuation routes and passages while still offering passengers or owners much of the conveniences of home is a very tall order. Every year this evolution of boat buyers wanting all the stuff they have at home continues and designers and builders have to stretch beyond the standards they learned in school to accommodate these customers in order to stay in business. Mark my word electrical boat fires will increase in the future while common sense diminishes.

Rick

 

[twistedtree]

Nobody or any commission has found a single culprit and there may not be one smoking gun but subject vessel has apparently met all USCG requirements. The USCG and federal regs are written to engage older vessels as well as new so alleging older vessels are more prone to casualties is just plain wrong. Just as wrong as claiming new vessels are better built than older. If a vessel lacks current safety equipment or design features then the USCG will enforce it, pull the COI or restrict operations and territory.

Think about it a bit if you’re inclined. Building a passenger or any vessel that must remain fully watertight and yet provide immediate emergency evacuation routes and passages while still offering passengers or owners much of the conveniences of home is a very tall order. Every year this evolution of boat buyers wanting all the stuff they have at home continues and designers and builders have to stretch beyond the standards they learned in school to accommodate these customers in order to stay in business. Mark my word electrical boat fires will increase in the future while common sense diminishes.

Rick

The smoking gun, so to speak, what that they didn't have the required roving watch, which was a condition of inspection. So the boat passed inspection, but wasn't operated in compliance with it's certification.


Other things that were not required but the COI were recommended as enhancements, like points of egress that aren't effectively blocked by bunks, and point of egress that lead to different area of the boat so less likely to both be blocked by fire. Also, the fire alarming was clearly inadequate.


Those seem like good suggestions, but your point about the realities of boat design are well taken. We went through this on our boat which was in build when the Conception fire occurred. Figuring a way to get two exit paths from the lower level to separate parts of the boat was a challenge. Ceiling hatches in the staterooms that open into the salon above were proposed, but rejected because of interference with cabinetry above, and granite floor tile that would make any hatch VERY heavy. Instead, the second egress is to go aft through the ER and into the laz, then out the laz hatch to the cockpit. The down side is that there is only one way out of each lower stateroom to the common hallway. If a fire gets into the hall before you are alerted, you are screwed. So lots and lots of smoke detectors.

 

[garbler]

Twisted tree: can’t argue with your assessment they were apparently in violation on the watch standards. I might add though, again just spitballing here, but the whole night watchman requirement on smaller crewed T class passenger vessels isn’t often taken too seriously. Minimal crew usually means some member is given the task which most often means little or no sleep so you have to wonder how thoroughly the job is taken.

If this was an electrical fire, and again another unsubstantiated theory, these types of fires can travel fast along conductors that are often buried behind fabrics, insulation, upholstery etc. they rarely are localized and usually run to protective equipment. With LI batteries they burn very hot and can explode compounding the hazard. Combined with toxic plastic smoke that can overwhelm a person and blind them quickly is a frightening scenario. Maybe more than a watchman could have handled. The reported alarm failures is a mystery as Steve A notes.

However a watchman doing his job and acting with dispatch could have, should have rousted everybody up and directed them out on deck or at least tried to. We will apparently never know unfortunately but there is plenty of blame to go around and you can bet those T boats running overnight are going to see some very serious USCG responses and rule changes. Most of which I suspect will be targeted at electrical systems and evacuation.

Rick

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Can't cover this subject too much, having inspected hundreds of vessels in my career, I marvel that there aren't more electrical fires. My strong suspicion is this fire occurred because the vessel's older electrical system was stressed by modern, higher loads induced by multiple chargers. Resistance space heaters have the same effect, many fires have occurred not because of the heater itself, but because of faulty wiring that works OK when lightly loaded.

Some, including the CG, have postulated it may have been a portable lithium battery that was being charged, that's entirely possible as well. In my shop, I place lithium batteries for portable tools, that are being charged, on a ceramic surface, and I encourage others to do the same, and never leave phones, computers or tablets charging unattended on bedding. It is believed the wooden boat museum in my home town of Deltaville Virginia burned down because of a power tool battery charger.

I covered the fire and smoke detection subjects editorially twice recently...

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/PartingShot-Fire199-04.pdf

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/the-need-for-smoke-detectors-editorial-read-the-contract/

Why none of the survivors can report having heard a smoke detector remains the greatest mystery for me.

 

[Adopo]

Can't cover this subject too much, having inspected hundreds of vessels in my career, I marvel that there aren't more electrical fires. My strong suspicion is this fire occurred because the vessel's older electrical system was stressed by modern, higher loads induced by multiple chargers. Resistance space heaters have the same effect, many fires have occurred not because of the heater itself, but because of faulty wiring that works OK when lightly loaded.

Some, including the CG, have postulated it may have been a portable lithium battery that was being charged, that's entirely possible as well. In my shop, I place lithium batteries for portable tools, that are being charged, on a ceramic surface, and I encourage others to do the same, and never leave phones, computers or tablets charging unattended on bedding. It is believed the wooden boat museum in my home town of Deltaville Virginia burned down because of a power tool battery charger.

I covered the fire and smoke detection subjects editorially twice recently...

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/PartingShot-Fire199-04.pdf

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/the-need-for-smoke-detectors-editorial-read-the-contract/

Why none of the survivors can report having heard a smoke detector remains the greatest mystery for me.

Thanks for the links to your articles. Well written. Man people do some dumb things. Open flame candles? Where were the battery powered lights? Was this intentional? I appreciate your contribution to this forum. I think you know what you are talking about!

About the Author: For many years a full- service yard manager, Steve now works with boat builders and owners and others in the industry as Steve D’Antonio Marine Consulting. He is an ABYC-certi ed Mas- ter Technician and sits on that organiza- tion’s Engine and Powertrain, Electrical, and Hull Piping Project Technical Com- mittees. He is also technical editor of Pro- fessional BoatBuilder.


Andiamo, a 120' (36.58m) fiberglass motoryacht, caught fire and burned while dockside in Miami in December 2019. There were no injuries or fatalities, but the $6.8 million vessel was a total loss. An unattended open flame caused the fire. Because of a fault in the vessel’s computerized automated lighting system, lights in the guest cabin were inoperative, so a crew member lit candles in preparation for a guest’s arrival. They were placed on a wood-veneer dresser top near a porthole with curtains.

 

[Adopo]

Somber read, phone video discovered from the deceased.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-12-22/la-me-conception-video

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Absolutely chilling. This is a subject that has been discussed here at great length, and with good reason. On a few occasions I've said that one of the everlasting mysteries for me is how or why the smoke alarms on this vessel did not sound. The crew, who survived, claimed they never heard them. Now that mystery has been put to rest.

It seems in today's society there is a natural compulsion to film what ever may be happening, it is extremely common, even if it's leading to your own demise. The person who filmed this did help place another piece of this puzzle, her video may help solve this mystery.
--

 

[psneeld]

Videos can be a two-edged sword...

If used correctly, one of the best things is they can reveal more truths about accidents, supplementing what has been proved over time that eye witnesses are unreliable and/or readily capable of altering the truth if they had responsibility in the incident.

They can also reveal some real horrors.

 

[Blissboat]

It's very sad to have my suspicions confirmed, that those unfortunate people were awake and aware of what was happening to them. Choking on smoke would be enough to awaken most of us, I think. What an awful experience.

Twenty years ago I evaluated a 65' 1960s-vintage USCG inspected party fishing boat as a possible adventure yacht conversion. It was diesel powered and sturdily built. The wood construction sobered me up. I recall standing in the dimly-lit forward bunkroom, studying the companionway steps leading up to the main deck, which afforded the only way in or out, and thinking to myself - this space could be a death trap. But at that time and for another eighteen years afterward, that boat remained in certification and in service, running overnight offshore trips. A hurricane mercifully ended its career.

Aside from the lessons learned from the Conception disaster for those of us running private vessels, I often wonder how many other inspected small passenger vessels are out there that ought to be failed due to obsolete life-safety provisions.

 

[Mako]

That was my bunk with barely 2ft of vertical space between me and the gas-passing guy above. Great diving, nasty trip. That cabin was definitely a trap.

 

[Simi 60]

Cabins below decks automatically excluded vessels from our buy radar.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Videos can be a two-edged sword...

If used correctly, one of the best things is they can reveal more truths about accidents, supplementing what has been proved over time that eye witnesses are unreliable and/or readily capable of altering the truth if they had responsibility in the incident.

They can also reveal some real horrors.

Personally, if a love done was aboard, I would not want to see it.

 

[psneeld]

Personally, if a love done was aboard, I would not want to see it.

I got into some trouble when I refused to let a certain aircraft accident file with pretty graphic pictures be released. Still think it was the right decision despite the possible career impact.

Other than official investigators and a few people on review boards.... best certain things left untold and unseen by the rest of the world.

As I posted...total transparency in a lot of situations can be a 2 edged sword.

 

[slowgoesit]

I got into some trouble when I refused to let a certain aircraft accident file with pretty graphic pictures be released. Still think it was the right decision despite the possible career impact.

Other than official investigators and a few people on review boards.... best certain things left untold and unseen by the rest of the world.

As I posted...total transparency in a lot of situations can be a 2 edged sword.

Totally agree. Those who lost loved ones need to remember them in a better light, not see pics of how I've found people at the crash scenes. Some of the sights were pretty horrific.

 

[Blissboat]

The end of a dark, sad story:

"Captain of California dive boat that caught fire and killed 34 guilty of felony."

https://www.workboat.com/passenger-...hIWQ7LvzxUJYCWZp4qeWRndUvAQKhyUWcB_UNpYcyv2hw

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Some closure but not the end, the cause was never determined. If I manage to make it through the Pearly Gates that will be one of the first questions I ask.

 

[rslifkin]

Some closure but not the end, the cause was never determined. If I manage to make it through the Pearly Gates that will be one of the first questions I ask.

It was discussed in a thread over on CF that the cause was officially reported as a trash can fire. Root cause of the burning trash can was not provided though.

 

[O C Diver]

Having some diving experience,
There were some lithium battery powered underwater scooters and canister dive lights on the boat. While it's extremely rare that the lithium powered canister lights cook off while charging, it has happened. The battery packs on these lights are constructed out of "AA" size batteries in series and in parallel. Early versions and some imported versions didn't have the safety circuit boards we now expect. Additionally, one or 2 scooter manufacturers built battery packs with the flammable version of the lithium chemistry (don't remember which version that is). Normally the lights and scooters are charged overnight as it can take 8 to 12 hours. There had been some discussion about this on a diving forum. I guess it would be tough to determine if a battery pack started the fire or simply burned in the fire.

Ted

 

[Fletcher500]

Truth

Saw the Truth (sister boat) at the Channel Islands last month. Full group of a people on a dive trip. The website indicates a new company bought both sister boats and are running charters.

 

[Blissboat]

The NTSB's official accident report:

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/MAR2003.pdf

As is always the case with transportation casualties, a number of things had to fall into place in order to turn a minor incident into a major tragedy. But the operative phrase is on page vi, under "Probable Cause," which mentions "a fire of unknown cause." As Steve D'Antonio notes, that's about as much as we are likely to find out, at least during this lifetime. As for myself, I remain suspicious of the jumble of rechargeable personal devices plugged-in to charge overnight on the back of a settee in the main salon. A photo on page 9 of the report says a lot. The caption reads: "Figure 8. Photo taken during accident voyage (August 31, 2019) of devices plugged in to charge at the port side aft corner of the salon on the Conception."

That shouldn't matter, though. The tragedy could have been prevented at any of a number of points on the critical path to mass fatalities. And as the federal trial jury confirmed, the buck always stops with the captain.

 

[Portage_Bay]

And as the federal trial jury confirmed, the buck always stops with the captain.

Yes it does. However in my opinion the owner and CG inspectors share in the blame. All confined spaces require a second exit. It's hard to imagine 34 persons using the escape hatch in a smoke filled compartment. Especially untrained persons without emergency escape breathing devices. The boat should have been modified to provide realistically usable emergency escape. And the escape hatch should have led to another area, reports indicate the fire blocked both escape routes.

First pic is the escape hatch over the passenger's right shoulder. Second pic is an NTSB inspector demonstrating use of the hatch.

 

[Mako]

They never gave us a safety orientation, location of life vests, location of secondary escape hatch. Nothing.

 

[psneeld]

Lot's to be said on both enforcement and execution sides of the equation.

One thing about the USCG is their job isn't to put certain businesses out of operation once established, but to relatively make assurances they are running reasonable safe (not absolute) safe operations.

That is the constant battle government agencies are under....assist persons and businesses or be an authoritative, constraining agency that stifles business.

It's a see saw and when anything goes wrong...in the USA fingers get pointing quickly and the legal system jumps to attention.

Tragedy yes...but still a lot of unanswered question. I wouldn't even attempt to comment without several readings of the NTSB report, the USCG report, courtroom transcripts, depositions, etc, etc..... even then there are going to be a few gaps or gray areas where opinion, morality, guessing.....and more tend to connect the dots but are still far from facts.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

It was discussed in a thread over on CF that the cause was officially reported as a trash can fire. Root cause of the burning trash can was not provided though.

I did see that. The trash can was the origin of the fire, they believe, but not the cause.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

When I conduct inspections on recreational vessels, I review and test, by climbing through, escape hatches. These are often located in overheads, where a panel needs to be pulled down, in some cases a rope ladder then falls for the escapee to use, however, most of these ladders are all but unusable for all but the most fit individual, children, older and overweight folks simply can't escape in many cases. In other cases the user is expected to remove a telescoping ladder from a nearby locker (is it clearly labeled?). Will a used be able to do this in a dark or smoke-filled space?
The strap to drop the overhead should b clearly visible (some builders complain they are unsightly), and it should have a glow in the dark tag attached, and the placard for the ladder locker should also be glow in the dark.

In other cases, I find hatches virtually glued shut by dirt and liquid spills, almost always when these exits into a galley. In still other cases rugs or furniture or inflatable tenders cover and impede these hatches. If you are a vessel owner, you should test our own escape routes, if you are a surveyor, you should thoroughly scrutinize and test these escape routes as well.

I cover escape requirements in this editorial on the fire.
https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/fire-are-you-and-your-vessel-prepared/

 

[twistedtree]

Some closure but not the end, the cause was never determined. If I manage to make it through the Pearly Gates that will be one of the first questions I ask.

I though I read something recently (in the last month or two) that DID come to a final conclusion about the origin of the fire. I remember it because it was conclusive that it was NOT lithium batteries, but of course I don't recall what the starting point was.


Ah, here it is https://www.latimes.com/california/...arted-in-plastic-trash-can-atf-report-reveals