High Output Alternator for QSB380

[Scottwb96]

Not sure if you're using the Wakespeed programming tool or something else. The one designed by "Offgrid" (link below) is pretty impressive and lets you get super granular as well as see real-time output/monitoring of the device... Not at the boat right now, so can't show the real-time. But I can do it a bit later today if you're interested...

Also, I know you said you are confident that it's programmed correctly, but I would double/triple check that BOTH the battery and the alternator temp sensors are connected. As well as in the programming tool, that the boxes are checked to require their input...


https://www.offgridsoftwaresolution...tool-config-version-life-time-windows-64-bit/

 

[catalinajack]

So after a few hours we’ve managed to run 2/0 pos and neg directly from alternator to house batteries. We ran the engine at different idle speeds and loads for around 45 minutes. Max temp on alternator reached 220 F.

As temp rose the amperage output decreased which then saw a decrease in alternator temp.

It seems for now that this has potentially helped the heat issue.

All programming was checked with the alternator make model output etc to ensure no mistakes were made.

Maximum output at the alternator was 100 amps at 1500 rpm.

I am also going to try a simple idea and open up the plastic belt cover on the front of the engine info t of the alternator to try and get more air circulation. Will cover with screen for safety.

We have a long run tomorrow of 5 hours and will tell us more then.

As before, I’ll keep folks updated.

Thanks for all the advice.



Brent

Rod Collins of marinehowto.com recommends against shields for just that reason, air flow for cooling.

 

[Phase3]

Hello Everyone.
Just finished a 4 hour trip as a last stop on our early Christmas on the boat with our son. Confident that the 2/0 direct run helped not only the alternator temps but also the simplicity of monitoring the house batteries, at least the way our Maretron is hooked up.
Removing the cover also helped, I believe. Max temp today at the Stader area got to 220 F.
Batteries charged from 13.1 V to 13.6. ( resting) in about 2.75 hrs.
I’ve done up a spreadsheet that I’ll share after we get back to the marina.
Thanks again for everyone’s comments. All of them have useful information.

Brent

 

[twistedtree]

Not sure if you're using the Wakespeed programming tool or something else. The one designed by "Offgrid" (link below) is pretty impressive and lets you get super granular as well as see real-time output/monitoring of the device... Not at the boat right now, so can't show the real-time. But I can do it a bit later today if you're interested...

Also, I know you said you are confident that it's programmed correctly, but I would double/triple check that BOTH the battery and the alternator temp sensors are connected. As well as in the programming tool, that the boxes are checked to require their input...


https://www.offgridsoftwaresolution...tool-config-version-life-time-windows-64-bit/

That's interesting to see, and I might suck it up and buy a copy. But I have to say I think the Wakespeed device is appalling. Not necessary in it's ability to regulate, but in it's complete lack of access to programming it. It's touted as the most flexible and programmable controller out there, but have you tried to do it? A command line interface using a terminal emulator on a PC? Are you kidding me? And the commands will make the most die-hard DOS fan wince they are so cryptic. The 80's are calling and they want their user interface back. And it really pisses me off that to get any semblance of a usable interface, I have to go buy some 3rd party tool. You must be f'ing kidding me. A freakin' child can write a phone app and support iOS and Android. I never in my life thought I'd pine for the simplicity of the Balmar programming interface. Never thought I'd say any of those words in the same sentence. The product could be so good, but they just stopped and lay down before they were finished.

 

[Phase3]

Scott. This looks interesting for me to look at in the future without question. I am daft at best with electrical so best I stick with the basics for now, or I will be calling the marine electrical tech to come and reprogram the WakeSpeed.
I definitely will look into this though as it will allow me to be a bit more self sufficient.
Brent

 

[DDW]

The device seems good. It is the UI that is appalling. But the same can be said about a large majority of consumer devices.

I've said it before, if Victron gets into this business they will own it. The only problem will be the documentation.

If you buy the Wakespeed from Offgrid, you get a very nice deal on the software. There is a 3rd party opportunity to own (a very small) market for a Bluetooth dongle and app to pair with the Wakespeed. It's that "very small" part that will likely doom it.

 

[catalinajack]

That's interesting to see, and I might suck it up and buy a copy. But I have to say I think the Wakespeed device is appalling. Not necessary in it's ability to regulate, but in it's complete lack of access to programming it. It's touted as the most flexible and programmable controller out there, but have you tried to do it? A command line interface using a terminal emulator on a PC? Are you kidding me? And the commands will make the most die-hard DOS fan wince they are so cryptic. The 80's are calling and they want their user interface back. And it really pisses me off that to get any semblance of a usable interface, I have to go buy some 3rd party tool. You must be f'ing kidding me. A freakin' child can write a phone app and support iOS and Android. I never in my life thought I'd pine for the simplicity of the Balmar programming interface. Never thought I'd say any of those words in the same sentence. The product could be so good, but they just stopped and lay down before they were finished.

And that is precisely why I considered a Wakespeed and discarded that idea quickly. Just reading a few pages of the manual made my head spin. So, the Balmar product stays on board. Sure, it is a pain to run through the menus with that hokey magnetic tip but in just 15 minutes or so one can have it programmed to whatever parameters one chooses. Should Wakespeed come up with a UI that is "brainless" I will reconsider.

 

[DDW]

There is a very important feature lacking from the Balmar that is included in the Wakespeed: battery charge input from a shunt. There is no way you can program a Balmar around this limitation, it will switch to float too early no matter what the settings.

Another is the tight integration with a BMS in an LFP installation.

For those not wanting to get deeply into the Wakespeed interface, you can simply download one of their canned configurations - they have a large variety covering most common setups. They will ship it to you already configured if you want.

Not trying to make excuses for their UI which is really bad, but there are reasons to prefer the Wakespeed.

 

[twistedtree]

There is a very important feature lacking from the Balmar that is included in the Wakespeed: battery charge input from a shunt. There is no way you can program a Balmar around this limitation, it will switch to float too early no matter what the settings.

I agree this is a nice feature in the Wakespeed for LA batteries. For LFP it doesn't matter. And I haven't had much trouble setting up Balmar's in this respect. My house loads underway are pretty consistent and predictable, so just adjust the float transition to be a bit above that current level. I suspect much of the issue people have is because the manual for the Balmar is misleading at best, and flat out wrong in other respects around this programming. It took me a long and frustrating time to realize the device and its programmable setpoints worked differently from what the manual says. Once you get your head around how it actually works, it can be programmed to do the right thing. And look, here I am defending Balmar programming. Never in my life did I see that coming....

Another is the tight integration with a BMS in an LFP installation.

True. That said, both regulators can be programmed to autonomously stay within safe LFP ranges, and both can be turned off by a BMS by simply turning off their control power. That's how mine is working.

 

[DDW]

I agree this is a nice feature in the Wakespeed for LA batteries. For LFP it doesn't matter. And I haven't had much trouble setting up Balmar's in this respect. My house loads underway are pretty consistent and predictable, so just adjust the float transition to be a bit above that current level.

I've not found this to be possible, and I have fiddled with it endlessly. At best, it tries to guess what is going into the battery from field current, but it doesn't even do that reliably.

It is a fools errand to begin with: Lifeline says switch to float when current drops to 0.5%C, in my case that is 2.2 amps going into the batteries. The engine electronics draw around 15 - 20 A. The instruments another 5. Other house loads vary from 5 to about 100A depending on what is happening. 2.2A is noise in that environment, there is simply no way to do guess from field current. On the other hand dead easy if you just look at the battery current. I've tried every setting there is, ultimately had to take the advice of Rod Collins, which is just set the float up high enough that you get a reasonable charge once above about 85% SOC, and figure the engine isn't running long enough to damage the batteries.

In fact if you observe the switch over to float it is very inconsistent at what it does. Every once in awhile it "hunts" for the setpoint while in absorb, dropping the voltage into the float range, and then staying there. Balmar says this doesn't happen, but other people have observed it too.

The result is a switch to float usually between about 80 and 95% SOC, and seemingly never the same point twice.

 

[Seevee]

Scott. This looks interesting for me to look at in the future without question. I am daft at best with electrical so best I stick with the basics for now, or I will be calling the marine electrical tech to come and reprogram the WakeSpeed.
I definitely will look into this though as it will allow me to be a bit more self sufficient.
Brent

Scott,
Are you a single or twin. If single I could argue strongly that you need a 250a alernator... just not enough with much less. With twins 250 would be perfect and just loaf providing all the charge you need, plus keeping up with most of your appliances running off the batteries.


I'm in the process of putting a pair of Balmar 250a (XT-DF-250-J10) alternators on my Mainship 430 twin, regulater with the Balmar 618 Regulators and with a Balmar Centerfielder to tie them together. Much more than 100a you'll need a serpentine belt. So, I'm putting on new pulleys.


I've discussed this thoroughly with Balmar, Yanmar, my electrician, Lifeline (which I currently have) and Lithonics (should I go that way).



I've had Balmar before and totally happy with their products and support.


And, yes you'll need a battery temp control, especially when overworking a small alternator. @font-face {font-family:Arial; panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536859905 -1073711037 9 0 511 0;}@font-face {font-family:"ＭＳ 明朝"; mso-font-charset:78; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536870145 1791491579 18 0 131231 0;}@font-face {font-family:"ＭＳ 明朝"; mso-font-charset:78; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536870145 1791491579 18 0 131231 0;}@font-face {font-family:Georgia; panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:647 0 0 0 159 0;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"ＭＳ 明朝"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-bidi-font-family:Georgia; color:#131313;}.MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; font-family:Arial; mso-ascii-font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"ＭＳ 明朝"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Arial; mso-bidi-font-family:Georgia; color:#131313;}div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;

 

[catalinajack]

There is a very important feature lacking from the Balmar that is included in the Wakespeed: battery charge input from a shunt. There is no way you can program a Balmar around this limitation, it will switch to float too early no matter what the settings.

Another is the tight integration with a BMS in an LFP installation.

For those not wanting to get deeply into the Wakespeed interface, you can simply download one of their canned configurations - they have a large variety covering most common setups. They will ship it to you already configured if you want.

Not trying to make excuses for their UI which is really bad, but there are reasons to prefer the Wakespeed.

The Balmar can be programmed to stay in absorb mode for as long as you like. Same for bulk. And at whatever voltage you choose. What is battery charge input relative to the Wakespeed.

 

[DDW]

The Balmar can be programmed to stay in absorb mode for as long as you like. Same for bulk. And at whatever voltage you choose. What is battery charge input relative to the Wakespeed.

You can program it to stay in bulk/absorb dumb (some number of hours) or switch based on voltages and field current. It really only can see the voltage at the battery, and has no idea what the charge or even alternator output current is though it attempts to guess the latter.

The problem with setting the bulk minimum to say 5 hours is if you leave the dock fully charged, you are running bulk voltages into a fully charged battery for 5 hours when it should be in float the whole time. On an FLA you can replace the water lost, but on an AGM you cannot. Not going to kill them instantly but will reduce their life. That is why you want to switch based on current into the battery - but the Balmar doesn't know what that is.

The Wakespeed has a current shunt input, connected to your house battery shunt. It can directly observe the current into the battery which can be - and usually is - very different than the current out of the alternator. The Wakespeed can be programmed to switch to float when the charge current drops below 0.5%C, just as the battery manufacturer requires.

There are jury rigs to trick the Balmar, like use a Victron battery monitor to measure current, use its relay output to lie to the Balmar that the batteries are overheating, etc.

 

[twistedtree]

First let me say that I agree that measuring battery return current directly is the better way to end charging a LA battery, and that Wakespeed is one of the few products that does that. But for most charger we all need to deal with setting based off the chargers output, not the battery return current.


Here's what I ended up doing with a Balmar regulator to get satisfactory performance. Perhaps not ideal, but it did work.


- Set bulk voltage (bV) to the battery's bulk voltage
- Set bulk time (b1c) to .1hrs (6 minutes)
- Set bulk/absorb current. This is the current that triggers a switch from bulk/absorb to float. You specify the % of field current, and that corresponds to the % of the alternators rated output. So you need to do a little math. I set this to 5-10A above my underway house loads. So if my house loads are 25A while underway, I would set this to 30-35A. That will case the switch to float when the return current to the batteries gets below 5-10A. You need to adjust these numbers based on your own underway loads, and your desired battery return current. Then figure out what % of the alternator's rated output it represents. Then keep and eye on things underway and tweak this a bit if needed.
- Set absorb voltage (Av) to .2V less than bulk. For whatever reason Balmar insists on this.
- Now here's the funky part. Ffl is NOT the absorb to float current level. It's the float to absorb current level. In other words it's not the current level where float starts. It's the current level when the charger switching out of float and goes back to absorb. As I recall, this is where the Balmar manual is flat out wrong. So if you want the alternator to stay in float, you need to set this value really high, like as high as possible. That will keep the alternator in float. Because the description is wrong, people tend to set this to a low number thinking it's when the alternator should stop absorb and go to float. But that causes the alternator to keep kicking back into absorb every time there is a short term load increase.


Maybe this will help get people's balmars to do what they expect.

 

[DDW]

Yeah, aware of all that, sadly you can't find much it in Balmars docs and have to reverse engineer what it really does. Balmar tech support knows far less about this thing than I do.

According to their literature, you can only set Fba (absorb -> float) so low - 16% of field. How can that possibly get down to 2A per Lifeline's charge specs? 16% of a 160A alternator is 25A, not even within hailing distance of float. Now this is false, it will let you set it much lower, though it isn't clear that does anything. I've set it to 8% and it still transitions to float way early, sometimes at 70% SOC when they will still take 30A charge. It isn't clear what triggers that, and I've watched it closely with a recording oscilloscope capturing voltage and current.

The return to absorb is yet another problem, fire the microwave for example and even though the alternator supplies all of the necessary current, now you are back in absorb. It is less of a problem, once in float you'd mostly like to stay there and you can bet the Balmar will transition back to float quickly since it does that too early almost always.

It is a scheme that doesn't work particularly well and can't work particularly well in this sort of service, because it is blind to a critical piece of information - how much current is actually going into the batteries? This has at very best a vague and distant relationship to field current. Not unique to the Balmar, all the non-current sensing regulators have the same issue. The biggest mystery to me is that Balmar went through a major redesign from 614 -> 618 and left out the single most important improvement they could make (current sense input), which would have cost literally pennies in manufacturing costs if that. Since they have now anchored it to the SG200 they can probably fix it with a firmware upgrade if they chose to do so.

 

[kabyak]

Being near a point of FLA battery relacement, I'm gathering info on a LifePO upgrade. In addition to alternator temp compensation there's an issue with the BMS disconnecting from the charge source due to a fault, this potentially open circuits the alternator and likely fries the diodes. One suggested solution is having a AGM battery (charge parameters are similar enough) in parallel with the LifePO bank as a buffer. There are also DC to DC converters that could go between alternator and batteries and can be programmed to limit current, tho I haven't seen any rated over 100A.
I've purchased large frame 160A Leece Neville alternators for under $200, you can buy a kit to convert to external regulation, a pretty simple install.

 

[Scottwb96]

Fully agree on the "command line programming" option from Wakespeed. Unless you are familiar with that and comfortable with doing it, wouldn't really recommend that route.
That's also why I looked into the Offgrid option for programming. Much easier than the native option... Also really like the live monitoring capability to make sure you have everything right where you want it...

That all being said, the app they have is VERY simple and can be used to program the device at home on a counter top. All you need is a USB cable to connect to it. Screen-shots attached for reference. Mostly just "fill-in-the-blanks" in the app and you can be off and running...

I bought the N2K connected version so I could also get the info on my Axiom MFD's (I like all the data I can get)...

Also in the screen shots are the sections I was mentioning about MAKING SURE your sensor leads are connected and configured (alternator temp & battery temps)...

 

[Comodave]

Being near a point of FLA battery relacement, I'm gathering info on a LifePO upgrade. In addition to alternator temp compensation there's an issue with the BMS disconnecting from the charge source due to a fault, this potentially open circuits the alternator and likely fries the diodes. One suggested solution is having a AGM battery (charge parameters are similar enough) in parallel with the LifePO bank as a buffer. There are also DC to DC converters that could go between alternator and batteries and can be programmed to limit current, tho I haven't seen any rated over 100A.
I've purchased large frame 160A Leece Neville alternators for under $200, you can buy a kit to convert to external regulation, a pretty simple install.

I spoke to Balmar about the BMS turning the batteries off and how to stop the alternator from getting fried. They recommended an Alternator Protection Device from Sterling, I think. They said it would protect the alternator if the BMS suddenly shut off the batteries. I bought one but sold the boat before I got the new Balmar alternator installed so I don’t know how well it worked or not. But assuming it did work it would be a simple solution.

 

[Scottwb96]

Scott,
Are you a single or twin. If single I could argue strongly that you need a 250a alernator... just not enough with much less. With twins 250 would be perfect and just loaf providing all the charge you need, plus keeping up with most of your appliances running off the batteries.

Seevee-
I have twin CAT 3208's TA. Unfortunately not a lot of options for high output alternators. Small case alternators are about my only option due to their locations.
But I have an older 150a Balmar (starboard) and just recently (4-5 months ago) added the Prestolite 90a (port). Both of those are connected to Wakespeed WS500's. Then those 2 are networked together (working together) to charge the house. ACR branched off of the port to also charge the start battery. This allows me to grab all the "wasted power" coming out of the port side after the start battery is recharged.

Very happy with the setup and how everything is working/charging now...

 

[DDW]

Being near a point of FLA battery relacement, I'm gathering info on a LifePO upgrade. In addition to alternator temp compensation there's an issue with the BMS disconnecting from the charge source due to a fault, this potentially open circuits the alternator and likely fries the diodes. One suggested solution is having a AGM battery (charge parameters are similar enough) in parallel with the LifePO bank as a buffer. There are also DC to DC converters that could go between alternator and batteries and can be programmed to limit current, tho I haven't seen any rated over 100A.
I've purchased large frame 160A Leece Neville alternators for under $200, you can buy a kit to convert to external regulation, a pretty simple install.

A big advantage of the Wakespeed 500 is it can communicate directly to and coordinate with an LFP BMS. Doing that eliminates your worry. The BMS tells the regulator it is going to fault, and it shuts down. I think you can make it communicate to most any CAN connected BMS, but they have good factory support for some BMS so that it where I would go.

 

[Scottwb96]

DDW-
agreed, the WS500 has a TON of already configured options for alts/batts/BMS/etc...

Wakespeed Technical Documents and Configuration Profiles

 

[DDW]

I bought the N2K connected version so I could also get the info on my Axiom MFD's (I like all the data I can get)...

Just refreshed my Wakespeed knowledge, now there is a WiFi dongle of the type I spoke of above. Programming and monitoring of the Wakespeed can all be done through a webpage without the need for TTY emulators and command line interfaces. We will ignore for a moment that this should have been built into the Wakespeed to begin with....and also that it is still a bit more geeky than it could be....

 

[Scottwb96]

lol, I think I will stick with the $15 USB cable (android app) and/or the Offgrid ~$25 software to get more granular...

 

[rpackard]

To keep the alternator output high and the case temperature low, I installed a simple blower to cool the alternator frame. The typical alternator fan is not sufficient to dissipate the ~50% energy loss in the case. The blower turns on automatically when the engine runs.

 

[DDW]

lol, I think I will stick with the $15 USB cable (android app) and/or the Offgrid ~$25 software to get more granular...

The fancy Offgrid software package is much more than that ~$150. It is not entirely clear the OPE does everything it does though - their documentation is a bit sparse.

 

[Scottwb96]

DDW-
They really need to update their webpage... Not the best description of what you get and how long the license is good for...

But the $24.95 is all a normal user needs. The other higher cost ones are for distributor/installers.

$24.95 gets you "lifetime" access for the devices you would need to install/update...

 

[Scottwb96]

It is not entirely clear the OPE does everything it does though - their documentation is a bit sparse.

Just ran through the install manual for the OPE... Aside from a few drop downs for the basic stuff, still "looks" like you're doing command lines... It keeps referring you back to the WS manual for config settings...

Not sure I really see any value out of the OPE Tether. It's basically just taking the place of the USB to (cell/laptop) connection. Which you can do w/ a $15 cable off of Amazon...

Question for the original (OP) poster... How was your device programmed? Did they,
1. Just set the dipswitches (very basic settings)
2. Connect a mobile device via USB and program from the wakespeed app?
a. you should download that to your phone and take a look and play with it, if you haven't already.
3. Use a laptop and the WS command line config settings?

 

[Scottwb96]

Phase3-

Did your installer pull off the main panel? This is where you can connect your mobile/laptop to either use the app for your phone (VERY EASY to use) or your laptop (lol, less easy)...

 

[twistedtree]

Phase3-



Did your installer pull off the main panel? This is where you can connect your mobile/laptop to either use the app for your phone (VERY EASY to use) or your laptop (lol, less easy)...

What phone app? From wakespeed?

Next time I buy a car do you suppose it won’t come with a dashboard, but just the mechanic’s ODB interface? And will I have to hunt down some bootleg 3rd party app to monitor and control my car? It’s a brilliant new world.

 

[DDW]

The sparse documentation I was referring to was OPEs. But you can at least tell that you aren't doing command lines. Like the Offgrid product, it is a front end that converts your template, checkboxes, and text boxes into the string of command lines needed. The expensive Offgrid software package allows real time monitoring and graphing of pretty much everything.

The phone app (yes it is from Wakespeed) only works if you have an off brand phone (Android ), otherwise you still need the DOS PC app to dump it across the serial cable. Also the phone app (last time I looked) allows only basic settings.

While a USB serial cable may be cheap, the value of a WiFi link instead is not having to open the Wakespeed enclosure, open the engine doors, run a cable to your laptop, keep everything balanced on your knee while you are screwing with your regulator. I'd like to be able to monitor it for whole cycles at times - much more convenient with WiFi to my nav station than a serial cable.