120V outlet wiring

[syjos]

Leviton and Hubbel sell commercial back wire outlets that has a clamp style wire connection that works well with stranded wire. Stick the stripped stranded wire into hole or back of clamp plate and tighten clamp screw.

 

[boatpoker]

not neccessarily on all matters though....I have had a few items waived by insurers when well explained that it was impractical (even ABYC addresses that in the beginning of their guidelines) .....and some mitigation steps for safety were met.

I agree. I have many times helped clients fight off unreasonable demands from underwriters however, the topic here is "electrical". I have never seen an underwriter give up a demand for ABYC compliance on electrical systems. This perhaps due to the high cost of the claims when things do go into the dumpster, most often due to non-compliant wiring by amateurs.

Just for fun take a look at the stuff I see on a daily basis. I didn't put any captions on these photos to reinforce the point that if you you don't see the issue you shouldn't be playing with electricity.
http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/ACDC nightmare photos.htm

 

[Comodave]

There is absolutely no requirement to bring a boat’s systems in compliance with Standards that were not in effect at the time of construction.

The approach I described is a reasonable remediation for what could be a dangerous situation. And it has been accepted by underwriters on at least two boats that I have done.

BTW, the surveyors that perform most surveys that I have been associated with do not dis-assemble anything, including looking behind the panel board. So solid conductors would go undetected.

The key is that a qualified marine electrician makes the assessment and modifies the wiring as described or proposes the modifications as part of the pre-purchase survey. The electrician and the surveyor work together in presenting the plan to the underwriter.

The option is a boat with potentially dangerous conditions that cannot be sold. That sounds unreasonable.

Just because solid conductors may go undetected does not make it right.

 

[CharlieJ]

@ Comodave
But, at the time the boat was built, “it” wasn’t wrong! The approach I laid out is a reasonable and very doable improvement that mitigates a potentially dangerous condition. It is a compromise.

 

[Comodave]

At one time knob and tube wiring in houses was ok. Then it wasn’t and some electricians would just put pigtails where you could see the wiring so buyers would think that the house had been rewired. A practice that I think is totally unethical. Just because something was ok in the past doesn’t make it ok now. And I am not sure that solid wire was ever ok.

 

[CharlieJ]

What I consider reasonable you are implying is unethical. Well done.

 

[Comodave]

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree. You said that you only inspected half of the solid wiring. What about the other half? What condition is it in? Just fixing the ends where it can be seen isn’t right IMO.

 

[psneeld]

CHARLIEJ......I get it.

Don't expect others to understand risk management. I used to teach it and I was often amazed at how many just couldn't absorb the concept...I still am amazed.

Not understanding your approach and doing something to mislead....well ....what can I say.

 

[Turtle Blues]

Have gone around this argument two times in the last two years. One was a beautiful '60s CC that unfortunately the PO had just hired a residential electrician to rewire. Hard wire from the plugs to the residential breaker box, with the neutrals and grounds on terminal strips grounded to the box. Nice job, completely removed and replaced with marine equipment to get insurance.
If the surveyor sees hard wire he is going to note it as non compliant with ABYC.
When you go for insurance the underwriter is going to request a copy of the survey and almost certainly require it be brought up to current ABYC standards for coverage.
The response I got arguing was "Yes the standards are voluntary, so is providing insurance."

Sleep a lot sounder knowing that things are correct and boat is off "Port Restriction"

 

[Bacchus]

CharlieJ
I'm curious...
Your bio lists ABYC Certified Technician so you must put some weight/ value in that "certification"

When performing the electrical work you outlined that does not meet ABYC (voluntary) standards...
Do you explicitly explain / document to owners that your work does not meet current (maybe even legacy ) ABYC standards? How about if they are responding to insurance Cos when correcting survey issues?
It seems like you are crossing at least a moral line if advertising ABYC Certification if you dont follow their STDs. Just my opinion.

Also curious... was solid copper ever accepted by ABYC? If so, what era?

 

[psneeld]

If someone has access to the entire ABYC standards, is there a paragraph near the beginning describing that always following the standards may be impractical?

Someone posted it years ago and I was foolish not to save it or at least file someplace handy.

 

[boatpoker]

If someone has access to the entire ABYC standards, is there a paragraph near the beginning describing that always following the standards may be impractical?

Someone posted it years ago and I was foolish not to save it or at least file someplace handy.

I believe you are mistaken. You may be remembering the second paragraph in the Preface

 

[psneeld]

Maybe...doesn't ring a bell but maybe newer editions reworded/eliminated what I sorta remember.

Though the second paragraph does seem to insinuate there might be other ways to skin the cat other than the exact standard.

 

[Caphenning]

I took a look at one of my outlets, and think it has house grade romex going to it...

It's a 3 conductor cable - SOLID white, black, and bare copper (ground) conductors.

From Calder's book, I got the impression that wiring on a boat should be stranded wire, not solid - and they get ring terminals on them for the connection to the outlet. Is that correct?

Is a 14ga stranded wire reasonable for a 15A 120V AC outlet that is within 15' of the breaker box?

Would a surveyor balk at other previous 120V AC wires that were solid conductors?

The thing to look for is if the core is tinned. If it’s tinned it’s marine cable. While most is stranded, there is qualified solid core as well.

14 is going to be fine.

 

[boatpoker]

Maybe...doesn't ring a bell but maybe newer editions reworded/eliminated what I sorta remember.

Though the second paragraph does seem to insinuate there might be other ways to skin the cat other than the exact standard.

My editions go back to 1994, There is no such comment since then. Before that I can't say.

 

[boatpoker]

While most is stranded, there is qualified solid core as well.

ABYC Standards have no "qualified" solid core conductors

 

[Caphenning]

ABYC Standards have no "qualified" solid core conductors

ABYC is not a sanctioning body. ABS, DNV, Lloyds... they set the material standards, and they have certified solid core marine cable. It is available. If the wire he has is tinned, it is fine for accommodations circuits.

 

[SteveK]

ABYC Standards call for the AC ground to be bonded to the DC negative.

I read the only reason for this was in case a hot AC touched a negative grounded surface. That sounded like someone got zapped and the code changed to prevent it again. That also introduced electric shock when swimming around a boat that has an AC failure.

At one time knob and tube wiring in houses was ok. Then it wasn’t and some electricians would just put pigtails where you could see the wiring so buyers would think that the house had been rewired. A practice that I think is totally unethical. Just because something was ok in the past doesn’t make it ok now. And I am not sure that solid wire was ever ok.

Since I remember the knob wiring, I am confident I also remember that in days long ago stranded wiring was for DC current specifically as stranded has less line loss and withstands heating better. Then AC wiring used stranded too being readily available. ABYC must have then made it a recommendation to prevent DIY people from using solid on DC.

CharlieJ
I'm curious...
Your bio lists ABYC Certified Technician so you must put some weight/ value in that "certification"

When performing the electrical work you outlined that does not meet ABYC (voluntary) standards...
Do you explicitly explain / document to owners that your work does not meet current (maybe even legacy ) ABYC standards? How about if they are responding to insurance Cos when correcting survey issues?
It seems like you are crossing at least a moral line if advertising ABYC Certification if you dont follow their STDs. Just my opinion.

Also curious... was solid copper ever accepted by ABYC? If so, what era?

Good question. My original AC wiring is solid from 1971, DC wiring is stranded.

ABYC Standards have no "qualified" solid core conductors

OK, not now or not ever.

IMO, solid wiring for AC current in a boat is perfectly functional, for ABYC to not recommend it is another matter, things change.

 

[boatpoker]

ABYC is not a sanctioning body. ABS, DNV, Lloyds... they set the material standards, and they have certified solid core marine cable. It is available. If the wire he has is tinned, it is fine for accommodations circuits.

We are talking pleasure craft on this forum and the underwriters in North America go by ABYC .

You are mistaken about ABS. ABS Notice No 1. and No 2. 20.7.1 says ...
Cables are to have copper conductors in accordance with a recognized standard and are to be of the stranded type, except sizes not exceeding 1.5mm squared (16AWG) may have solid conductors. (So only very thin DC wires)

The RCD's set the requirements for marine electrical conductors on pleasurecraft in Europe not Lloyds or Det Norske Veritas and the RCD's call for stranded conductors.

If you have contradictory citations I'd love to see them.

 

[Caphenning]

We are talking pleasure craft on this forum and the underwriters in North America go by ABYC .

You are mistaken about ABS, 20.7.1 says ...
Cables are to have copper conductors in accordance with a recognized standard and are to be of the stranded type, except sizes not exceeding 1.5mm squared (16AWG) may have solid conductors. (So only very thin DC wires)

The RCD's set the requirements for marine electrical conductors on pleasurecraft in Europe not Lloyds or Det Norske Veritas and the RCD's call for stranded conductors.

If you have contradictory citations I'd love to see them.

16ga is standard gauge for house AC wiring in lots of boats and houses.

If it’s tinned, it’s fine. If you don’t want to use it, no worries, but I sure wouldn’t be hauling it out of a functioning circuit.

 

[boatpoker]

16ga is standard gauge for house AC wiring in lots of boats and houses.


If it’s tinned, it’s fine. If you don’t want to use it, no worries, but I sure wouldn’t be hauling it out of a functioning circuit.

Wow! You just make stuff up and thats your response. I give up.

To the OP. Do some research before you believe anything you read here.
PM me an email address and I'll send you the ABYC electrical standards

PS. Every building code I know calls for 14AWG in a 15amp circuit. Can you cite a code that permits 16AWG

 

[Comodave]

I have never seen 16 gauge wire used in residential wiring for A/C supply. Maybe for an alarm or something like that. It isn’t rated for even 15 amps, that takes 14 gauge. It seems like people are pulling stuff out of you know where to support their position. The simple fact is in the US, ABYC is the standard. Why not comply?

 

[SteveK]

I have never seen 16 gauge wire used in residential wiring for A/C supply. Maybe for an alarm or something like that. It isn’t rated for even 15 amps, that takes 14 gauge. It seems like people are pulling stuff out of you know where to support their position. The simple fact is in the US, ABYC is the standard. Why not comply?

I saw that and thought it was a typo which will be corrected.
Low voltage 24v? relay wiring I think used 22 gauge.

 

[ksanders]

Thanks Comodave,

Hm. Now I guess I need to get into the rest of the wiring and see how much of it is house wiring... Was solid wire ever used on these boats? (this is a 1980 Chris Craft 410 cabin cruiser)

And I'm assuming ring terminals on the end of the wire going to the outlet is the right thing to do (not trying to get a stranded wire to wrap around the screw...?)?

John

No need for a ring terminal.

Buy commercial grade outlets.

They have a very good wire clamp and are designed for stranded wire.

If all you have is a screw terminal that is a indication of a cheapo residential grade outlet.

 

[ksanders]

16ga is standard gauge for house ac wiring in lots of boats and houses.

If it’s tinned, it’s fine. If you don’t want to use it, no worries, but i sure wouldn’t be hauling it out of a functioning circuit.

this is pure bs!!!

 

[Lou_tribal]

Wow! You just make stuff up and thats your response. I give up.

To the OP. Do some research before you believe anything you read here.
PM me an email address and I'll send you the ABYC electrical standards

PS. Every building code I know calls for 14AWG in a 15amp circuit. Can you cite a code that permits 16AWG

Op, do yourself a favor, do things right and avoid any potential issue.
Follow advice from boatpoker, he knows his subject.

L

 

[catalinajack]

Knob and tube wiring is still okay in houses. Many homes still have it with there being no requirement for having it replaced.

At one time knob and tube wiring in houses was ok. Then it wasn’t and some electricians would just put pigtails where you could see the wiring so buyers would think that the house had been rewired. A practice that I think is totally unethical. Just because something was ok in the past doesn’t make it ok now. And I am not sure that solid wire was ever ok.

 

[Comodave]

There isn’t a requirement to replace it but it is a huge fire risk. Would you knowingly buy a house with it? I would not. And you watch reno shows on TV where they are deceived into thinking that the house had been rewired due to unscrupulous people that put pigtails on knob and tube wiring to make buyers think that it has been rewired. Then they have to rewire the whole house.

 

[catalinajack]

Dave: thousands of homes are bought every year with knob and tube wiring. As for it being a huge fire risk, I do not think so. If it were, home insurance would be impossible to get at an affordable price. It is not impossible nor is it unaffordable. Insurers are in the business of risk assessment. If knob and tube were a "huge fire risk" as you posit, insurance would not be available at any price. And, yes, I would buy a house with knob and tube.

There isn’t a requirement to replace it but it is a huge fire risk. Would you knowingly buy a house with it? I would not. And you watch reno shows on TV where they are deceived into thinking that the house had been rewired due to unscrupulous people that put pigtails on knob and tube wiring to make buyers think that it has been rewired. Then they have to rewire the whole house.

 

[boatpoker]

Knob and tube wiring is still okay in houses. Many homes still have it with there being no requirement for having it replaced.

There is a significant insurance premium for knob/tube in a house.