Ballast bar on steel keel?

[LeoKa]

My boat is a bit tender and I would like to add more ballast. The bilge is full with lead bricks already. At the bottom of the steel hull, I have an I beam, which already has a bolted metal bar on the first part of the beam. I want to add another set of heavy bars bolted on this beam, hopefully even heavier.
Where do I get someone to fabricate a bar like this? It requires some welding for the mounting holes, plus it is very heavy. It needs to be delivered and mounted with a fork lift.
I plan to haul out this June for a bottom job, but this can wait till the next haul out. I just want it to be ready, when I pull the boat out again. I searched the internet, but I could not find any business doing it in my area. I am in WA State, down on the Columbia river. So, Astoria or Ilwaco boatyards are my choices. Although, this can be fabricated anywhere and delivered to the yard up to a certain distance.
Also, I have no clue how much it would cost these days, as metal prices are up to the roof?

 

[LeoKa]

Some photos of earlier haul outs. You can see the ballast bar on the beam.

 

[Mambo42]

I see you already added quite a bit to the boat, which makes me wonder: 'what did you (or the former owner) do to get the boat so top heavy and therefore unstable ?'
Isn't it an idea to start looking at shedding some weight at the top and create stability that way ?
Is just a thought, perhaps there is a good explanation.

 

[LeoKa]

I
Is just a thought, perhaps there is a good explanation.

Yes, there is, but I am looking for solution.
All I want is to increase the ballast at the lowest possible location. The keel tanks helped, but not enough. If my 274g water tank gets low, the boat is more tender. If I fill the water tank, it gets more stable. So, additional weight could help.
I did not build the boat. I am the third owner. The top deck only has solar panels.

 

[O C Diver]

Is the boat tender and needs more ballast or just rolly from a lack of chines and minimal keel? I might be more inclined ro try some roll control as opposed to more ballast.

Ted

 

[LeoKa]

Is the boat tender and needs more ballast or just rolly from a lack of chines and minimal keel? I might be more inclined ro try some roll control as opposed to more ballast.

Ted

This is a sailboat hull, designed by Bruce Roberts. The keel is 7.4' deep. Two keel tanks are 200/200g each. You can see the hull shape on the photos.

Roll control would be nice, but mounting more ballast on the beam, will help too. Plus, it is fairly easy to install.
Last summer, I had a trip with following swells and it was not pleasant. When I was slicing the waves on the bow, the boat was very steady.

 

[LeoKa]

Here is a picture of the keel tank.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I see spaces in the keel I beam where lead pigs could be bolted. Despite the cost of lead being higher than steel pound for pound it may be less expensive than having something fabricated of steel. And it's a relatively simple drill and bolt on. No welding required.

 

[LeoKa]

Despite the cost of lead being higher than steel pound for pound it may be less expensive than having something fabricated of steel. And it's a relatively simple drill and bolt on. No welding required.

Wow, that is a great idea!
Free shipping and they have a location in Seattle. I wonder, if they would mold the ingot with the hole already in it? I will have to contact them.
Drilling more holes into the beam will be a tough job, but you are correct, it will not require welding or fabrication.
I need to measure the available surface on that beam first, before I can make plans to order. My haul-out is scheduled for June. Perhaps I can mount these next summer at the next haul-out.
They also have 105 lbs ingots. Less holes needed.

 

[O C Diver]

This is a sailboat hull, designed by Bruce Roberts. The keel is 7.4' deep. Two keel tanks are 200/200g each. You can see the hull shape on the photos.

Roll control would be nice, but mounting more ballast on the beam, will help too. Plus, it is fairly easy to install.
Last summer, I had a trip with following swells and it was not pleasant. When I was slicing the waves on the bow, the boat was very steady.

That's a fairly large round bottom boat with a fairly small keel. Take a look at a Kadey Krogen 42 as a comparison. Many of those added paravanes, roller chocks, or active fins to slow the roll. As a sailboat hull design, it would have had a tall mast that dampens roll, especially with the sails up.

It might be money well spent to ask a naval architect whether it needs more ballast and how much, or more roll attenuation.

If you decide to add bars to the keel, how many thousands of pounds do you think you need? Understand that adding ballast outside the hull is offset by the weight of the water the metal displaces (64 pounds per cubic foot).

Ted

 

[LeoKa]

If you decide to add bars to the keel, how many thousands of pounds do you think you need? Understand that adding ballast outside the hull is offset by the weight of the water the metal displaces (64 pounds per cubic foot).

Ted

I don't think I can mount too much weight on the beam. I have never measured the inside beam. I need to talk to the lead guys to see how thick the lead ingots can be made? They might need to mold something for my purpose specifically.
Adding weight to the beam will not solve the problem, but it will help. The final solution is what was mentioned earlier.

 

[LeoKa]

Many of those added paravanes, roller chocks, or active fins to slow the roll.
Ted

I am too old for paravanes. A rolling boat and deploy paravanes in bad weather; is a scenario, which a 70+ skipper might not be able to handle.
Active fins are out of my budget and there is no space for it.
Roller chocks are something I would consider. I do plan to brainstorm a welder who installs chocks at the yard where I do my haul out. Yes, it would be nice to add something, which moderates the roll. It will never be perfect, but I can handle imperfection to a certain degree.
I think my boat can sail just fine in many situations. However, some of the swells from a certain directions can be uncomfortable. This is why securing everything inside is crucial. I will never be able to eliminate rolling. That is fine with me. Adding weight to the bottom is for safety mostly. At my last trip, I had 22 degrees rolls sometimes. It took her a while to come back from it, but she did. Extra weight on the beam and other low locations, will help with this.

 

[Judy at JWY]

Nanaimo Boat Yard on Vancouver Island added a 3" thick "keel shoe" on a steel trawler that worked quite well in adding additional stability. Might be worth the trip, or at least a call.

 

[LeoKa]

Nanaimo Boat Yard on Vancouver Island added a 3" thick "keel shoe" on a steel trawler that worked quite well in adding additional stability. Might be worth the trip, or at least a call.

I will call them up and see, if there is a way?
3" or more lead could make a difference. I am hoping it can be even larger. The length is given on the beam, but a 5-6" thick lead could mean significantly more weight.

Again, I might have installation option here locally on the Columbia river, too. I just came down from the Puget Sound in June and I have no plans to go back there again. If I can find someone here either in Ilwaco, or Astoria, that is my preferred choice.

 

[dannc]

If the OP has not read this article, Beam vs Ballast for Stability, it might be helpful.

If it was my boat, I would have a conversation with a naval architect about the problem and see what they suggest.

 

[LeoKa]

If the OP has not read this article, Beam vs Ballast for Stability, it might be helpful.

If it was my boat, I would have a conversation with a naval architect about the problem and see what they suggest.

As I mentioned earlier, the hull is a Bruce Roberts sailboat design. The upper structure was added by the builder and it certainly created large living space with comfort for live-aboard lifestyle. The beam is 14.2' and there is no walk-around deck outside.
Before launch, the first owner/builder did have an architect involved. Suggestions were given and corrections were made. I was not there, so I do not know all the details. However, the addition of weight by lead bricks in the bilge and on the beam at the bottom, suggests that the builder was listening. Was everything done perfectly to improve the stability? I don't know. This was 25 years ago and I don't think I can find the first owner.

Reading the article you quoted, it seems that a combination of ideas is a way to go. Based on this read, it is possible that adding more weight might not be the best. I was always wondering why the rest of the beam does not have additional mounted weights. Perhaps the architect told him not to add more?

Knowing that there is no perfect solution, I might need to change the way I go about this. Adding bilge keels/fins and a simple sail rig at the bow, might work better. I need to do more reading on this.

I do have a fresh water tank setup, which could be considered as a rolling tank. It is right above the bilge, under my bed. It has 3 tanks combined into one and connected with pipes to allow some movement of water between the tanks. I suspect, originally this was also considered for roll reduction. I cannot tell, if it was designed, or just home made. See photo.

The article mentions the 25' Boojum steel trawler. I have seen this boat in my marina. It is very cute and seemingly well constructed vessel.

 

[LeoKa]

Cute little boat. Possibly more stable then mine... lol

 

[C lectric]

You keep mentioning that it is a Bruce Roberts design. Fair enough as he knew what he was doing.
HOwever you also mentioned later that the previous owner made a bunch of modifications.
Did he know what he was doing? Sounds like not or no where near what Mr. Roberts did. The original designer doesn't matter a lot once an owner gets in and does a bunch of mods.

Talk to a decent designer or you may result in an even worse handling boat.

 

[LeoKa]

Did he know what he was doing? Sounds like not or no where near what Mr. Roberts did. The original designer doesn't matter a lot once an owner gets in and does a bunch of mods.

I don't know. I've never met the guy. All I know, what a member here told me, who was familiar with the building process and the later situations 24 years ago. I don't know why he did the modifications and what he did. What I can see is the lead in the bilge and on the beam below. Was he a professional, or a novice? Who knows. Maybe a creative professional skipper, but not as much of a designer. It seems that he only wanted the hull design from Bruce Roberts. The setup below deck looks like a well thought out design. I can see this as I learn more and more about the boat. Unfortunately, the second owner converted this boat into a marina condo. I believe that was a really bad idea, as I am stripping off things inside, but this has nothing to do with the design and the construction of the boat.

I might not even do anything at all, since the boat rides well. I just need to avoid following swells. The rest does not worry me much. I used to work as a merchant marine.

 

[sean9c]

I was around the yard where the boat was stored and then modded and knew the guy that did a lot of the work, but it was a lot of years ago now. The original owner basically took a sailboat hull and overwhelmed it with a big steel house and a big diesel engine. The boat was really tender and would squat badly at speed. The next owner hired Howard Appolonio to try and come up with improvements. They basically added the bottom tank, a bunch of steel including that I-beam to try and get some stability and a big bustle to try and add volume aft to help the squat. I don't know how successful any of that was.
It seems now, as others have mentioned, that it'd be pretty easy to bolt on some weight to either side of the I-beam. Look at the space available, do some calcs to determine if you can do it out of steel if not cast some lead.

 

[LeoKa]

I don't know how successful any of that was.
It seems now, as others have mentioned, that it'd be pretty easy to bolt on some weight to either side of the I-beam. Look at the space available, do some calcs to determine if you can do it out of steel if not cast some lead.

Yes, I think it does not squat anymore. It is certainly more stabile then it must have been at the original built. The pitch on my Raymarine shows the bow 2-3 degrees up when I am steady in the marina.
I have a Hatteras 48 next to me, and when we have wakes that boat is rolling like crazy. My boat dances too, but not even close as the Hatteras.

Again, with properly securing things prior departure and avoiding following swells, I could sail far along the coasts. If you ask me about beam seas, maybe I will not go out till it settles. Interestingly, when I was coming down from Puget Sound, the boat handled it better by taking the swells on the beam than the following sea angle. Unfortunately, I was on a schedule and I could afford taking the boat all the way. W-NW swells were large and steady.

 

[LeoKa]

I see spaces in the keel I beam where lead pigs could be bolted. Despite the cost of lead being higher than steel pound for pound it may be less expensive than having something fabricated of steel. And it's a relatively simple drill and bolt on. No welding required.

I called them up about the ingots. They charge $3/lbs and deliver to most addresses. Now I just have to decide how much, how big, and how to lift a heavy ingot to place for bolting?
Or, do I really need to do this, or not? Based on the article quoted here, it is possible that more ballast might not help, or can make it worst in bad weather.
http://www.kastenmarine.com/beam_vs_ballast.htm

 

[Portage_Bay]

I can't comment on the article because I have not read it yet. I encourage you to talk with an expert regarding the boat's stability. Maybe start with the deisgner?

As to mounting the lead what I do when I find a job that is physically more than I can handle is hire some muscle by the hour. A few hudred $$ can solve a lot of problems.

I called them up about the ingots. They charge $3/lbs and deliver to most addresses. Now I just have to decide how much, how big, and how to lift a heavy ingot to place for bolting?
Or, do I really need to do this, or not? Based on the article quoted here, it is possible that more ballast might not help, or can make it worst in bad weather.
Beam vs Ballast for Stability

 

[LeoKa]

I can't comment on the article because I have not read it yet. I encourage you to talk with an expert regarding the boat's stability. Maybe start with the deisgner?

As to mounting the lead what I do when I find a job that is physically more than I can handle is hire some muscle by the hour. A few hudred $$ can solve a lot of problems.

I tried. Both the hull designer and the modification designer. The first one never replied. The second one only once and never again.

I agree. If it is too heavy, either I abandon the idea, or hire help.

After reading many pages, it is possible that another route will be better. Combination of steadying sail and bilge keel installation. The sail can be easily setup, as I have a boom already on the top. The bilge keel is not impossible, because the welder at the yard has done few of them in the past.
All this is not urgent. I still have a year to figure this out, before I head South.

 

[rslifkin]

I'd do some measuring on things like roll period if you can. Try to get an idea of whether the issue is the boat being too tender, or if it's prone to high amplitude roll, or if it just has an uncomfortable rolling motion.

The issue may be a safety concern, or it may strictly be a comfort issue.

 

[LeoKa]

I'd do some measuring on things like roll period if you can. Try to get an idea of whether the issue is the boat being too tender, or if it's prone to high amplitude roll, or if it just has an uncomfortable rolling motion.

The issue may be a safety concern, or it may strictly be a comfort issue.

It was not a comfort issue. Practically, I have never left the pilothouse for strait 23 hours. The PH was the most comfortable spot and I had to watch the crab pots and the autopilot. Safety is my only concern.
It is certain that more testing will be needed. I am on a river now and the delta is over 100 miles away. The real test requires real ocean and some wind from the wrong direction. It will happen, just not soon.
Analyzing the last trip, I certainly made some mistakes. Things were not secured enough inside and on the top. The weight on the top has shifted, which resulted an even more confusing roll motion. Things inside the salon and kitchen freed themselves and they were levitating in every direction. That did not help the roll either. So, to do any serious testing, I will have to work hard on securing everything the best possible way.
I will keep reading on the subject of ballast, bilge keel, steading sail. These are the easiest and economical additions. Perhaps the combination of all, maybe nothing at all.
The modification as of now, were designed by a yacht designer. These modifications were installed by a yard, not the original builder. I suspect it was done properly and maybe even the best possible way. This is why I am hesitant to do more modifications. Nothing can be decided, until a trip with everything properly secured inside/outside.

 

[rslifkin]

You can do a roll period test at the dock. That will at least tell you if the roll is unusually fast or slow. If it's unusually slow, more ballast would likely be beneficial. If the roll is already too fast and snappy, the boat is likely stable enough and more ballast on the keel won't make things better.

 

[LeoKa]

You can do a roll period test at the dock. That will at least tell you if the roll is unusually fast or slow. If it's unusually slow, more ballast would likely be beneficial. If the roll is already too fast and snappy, the boat is likely stable enough and more ballast on the keel won't make things better.

I did the test. I pushed the boat to 6-8 degrees roll. I did not see snappy performance. It took her 20-25 seconds just to slow down the first rolls, but it did not calm down to comfortable level till 1 minute and 45 seconds. Again, it felt slow to me.

 

[LeoKa]

I received today 4 x 30g water bladders. The idea is use these in the forward cabin floor, instead of lead bricks in the bilge. These bladder are foldable, if not needed. For now, I put them on the forward deck and filled them up. One of them is leaking already. Hopefully only one. Replacement will be needed. The 4 bladders full lifted the stern about 2 inches at the waterline. The good thing about these, I can put them way below and practically anywhere.
I also have two 220g fuel bladders, but CG does allow fuel bladders below deck.
See photo.

 

[rslifkin]

I did the test. I pushed the boat to 6-8 degrees roll. I did not see snappy performance. It took her 20-25 seconds just to slow down the first rolls, but it did not calm down to comfortable level till 1 minute and 45 seconds. Again, it felt slow to me.

A long time to stop rolling says there isn't much roll damping, which definitely isn't good for comfort. But for determining if it should have more ballast you want to time the roll from when one side rises through a full cycle back to the same point. You're aiming for a roll period in seconds fairly close to the beam in meters.