Hydraulic Steering Fluid Replacement

[BernieG]

Hi folks,

Time to replace my steering fluid as I can't tell if it's ever been done on my 2002 American Tug 34, and the flybridge steering seems a bit vague compared to the pilothouse station. No signs of leaks or any other problems though. Anyhow, I have been looking around for quotes which have ranged from $1100 to $1500. They say it takes 2 people 4-5 hours and needs 5 gallons of fluid.

The boat is an American Tug 34 with 2 steering stations, one autopilot, and a single steering cylinder and rudder. The cylinder is easily accessible in the aft lazarette.

So, my question is how hard is it to do this procedure yourself? I am mechanically pretty handy and do all my own engine work. Also my wife has offered to help too. Looking at the Teleflex Sea Star literature and info on web it seems to only apply to smaller boats. Anyone done this on a 2 steering station boat?

Also, and suggestions for suppliers of cheaper ISO VG 15 hydraulic fluid than Sea Star?

Cheers
Bernie

 

[Ken E.]

Hi folks,

Time to replace my steering fluid as I can't tell if it's ever been done on my 2002 American Tug 34, and the flybridge steering seems a bit vague compared to the pilothouse station. No signs of leaks or any other problems though. Anyhow, I have been looking around for quotes which have ranged from $1100 to $1500. They say it takes 2 people 4-5 hours and needs 5 gallons of fluid.

The boat is an American Tug 34 with 2 steering stations, one autopilot, and a single steering cylinder and rudder. The cylinder is easily accessible in the aft lazarette.

So, my question is how hard is it to do this procedure yourself? I am mechanically pretty handy and do all my own engine work. Also my wife has offered to help too. Looking at the Teleflex Sea Star literature and info on web it seems to only apply to smaller boats. Anyone done this on a 2 steering station boat?

Also, and suggestions for suppliers of cheaper ISO VG 15 hydraulic fluid than Sea Star?

Cheers
Bernie

The vagueness in your upper helm is likely due to air in the system, which needs to be bled out. You will need to go the Teleflex website and download a PDF file of instructions on how to bleed your specific model. I went through this with my Hynautic system after I installed a new autopilot and had to Tee into a steering line. I had quite a bit of trouble getting the air out of mine, but I suspect that was largely my doing and not the fault of the system.

Also, I would get a second opinion on the need to replace the fluid on such a relatively new system. Many boats that I know of are much older than yours and have never changed the fluid. But consult with a shop and draw your own conclusions. Redden Marine's hydraulic shop in Bellingham is good...ask for Kevin.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. BG. Good grief! $1K to $1.5K? Stay away from those shops in future. I would simply fill the system using Sea Star fluid and bleed out the air. NOT hard at all.

 

[Lou_tribal]

5 gallons looks really too much for me. I did my research on how to do this because I have a leaking cylinder that I need to change and the teleflex/seastar says 5 quarts for a dual helm not 5 gallons if I remember correctly. If you look on the seastar web site you have the install guide for their cylinder and the process for single or dual station is clearly explain and looks pretty straightforward. You will need to be 2 to make it easy, one to action the wheel and one to tight the bleeding valve at the cylinder when the hydraulic fluid is coming through. If I remeber correctly what I read you start by the upper helm than you do the same to the lower helm.
For the hydraulic fluid the seastar is pretty expensive when bought by quart, something like 44CAD. Personnlay I am pretty sure that using any hydraulic fluid would do the same for half the price. After all any hydraulic cylinder on any heavy machinery is working in the same way... But I am not an expert and this is only my thinking so do not trust me

 

[CPseudonym]

Change the steering fluid?

Top it off and bleed the air. I bet it won't take half a quart and two hours of your time max if you have never done it before. Great little job to tackle with a very high chance for success.

 

[BernieG]

Thanks all so far. Yes that was 2 quotes one from a well known yard in Sydney and another from my local yard in North West washington. I can't see how they would use 5 gallons on this (although maybe they quote for a whole 5 gallon pail for each job). Reading the Teleflex site I can see a pdf on the overall process, and I can't understand why it would take 4-5 hours, unless it is a real pain to get the air out? Also, I see there is an electronic purge pump available for yards to do the job, that is supposed to make it faster. I am assuming both these yards are quoting for manual purging.

Bernie

 

[Lou_tribal]

I see one reason it would take 5hours... Making money

 

[psneeld]

5 man hrs? or 2 guys 2.5 hrs each?


I know bleeding my hynautics system is a bit of a pain the way it is described in the manual...Not sure why there isn't an easier ay using pressure or vacuum in the lines versus just turning the wheel and bleeding many components. have to think that one through.


A lot of people forget that marinas start the clock from the time the guys pick up the work order, assemble parts and tools, walk down to the boat, tear into all the spaces, do the job, clean up, walk back, put everything away and fill out the billing info.


Sometimes it is an easy hour or more extra.... depending on the marina and job.

 

[High Wire]

Purge the air, top off the FB station resv. Where is the need to CHANGE the fluid come from? Mine may have been replaced when the AP was added 20 years ago. It doesn't go bad unless contaminated as far as I know.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Here is the seastar pdf, look page 23, the bleeding process is explained.

View attachment SeaStar-Inboard-Cylinders-ORB-Helms-Book-2.1-Rev.J-343319J.pdf

 

[ancora]

Have not replaced my steerin' fluid in the 16 years we've owned the boat. Have purged the system when air got into it. Piece of cake.

 

[gaston]

Under $70 on ebay and worth every penny

 

[Brooksie]

I see no reason that your fluid should need to be changed, what gave you that idea. There is no heat involved in your non-power assisted system thus I would think the fluid should last almost indefinatly. Also there is no way that 5 gallons of fluid could be used. So I would be careful of the firms that quoted you.
If indeed the upper helm is not as positive as the lower helm, this may indicate air in the system. I would top it off using the same fluid as originally installed and first see if the air works its way out through the vent in the upper helm.

 

[Stabi]

"Personnlay I am pretty sure that using any hydraulic fluid would do the same for half the price."

DO NOT USE HYDRAULIC FLUID
ATF is approx 10 weight
Sea Star is approx 5 weight

Royco 756 aircraft fluid, meets sea star helm pumps oil, H5606 mil spec oil for their helm pumps. You can find it on ebay in gallon cans for much cheaper.

 

[Lou_tribal]

From seastar docs:

Recommended oils for your steering system are: SeaStar Fluid, P/N HA5430 (1 quart), HA5440 (1 gallon). The following brands are acceptable: Chevron® Aviation Hydraulic Fluid A, Esso® Univis N15 or J13, Mobil® Aero HFA, Petro Canada Harmony HV115 (in Canada only), Shell® Aero Fluid #41, Texaco® HO15 and other fluids meeting MIL SPEC H-5606-G.

Automatic transmission fluid (Dexron II®) may be used in an emergency. Never use brake fluid. Any non-approved fluid may cause irreparable damage, loss of steering, and cancellation of warranty.

In cases of extreme emergency any nontoxic, nonflammable fluid may provide temporary steering.

Knowing that I had a leak on my cylinder anyway and not to waste the precious seastar golden blood, I decided to use dextron II fluid as it was specified that it can be used in case of emergency, 5$/quart... Did not notice any difference. If this could do any damage please explain as I would be interested in understanding what can be the resulting damage.

 

[gaston]

From seastar docs:


Knowing that I had a leak on my cylinder anyway and not to waste the precious seastar golden blood, I decided to use dextron II fluid as it was specified that it can be used in case of emergency, 5$/quart... Did not notice any difference. If this could do any damage please explain as I would be interested in understanding what can be the resulting damage.

OEMs recommend lubricants that don't have an adverse effect on gaskets /seals etc in the products they manufacture .Some fluids and rubbers/seals just don't mix .

 

[LarryM]

"Personnlay I am pretty sure that using any hydraulic fluid would do the same for half the price."

DO NOT USE HYDRAULIC FLUID
ATF is approx 10 weight
Sea Star is approx 5 weight

Royco 756 aircraft fluid, meets sea star helm pumps oil, H5606 mil spec oil for their helm pumps. You can find it on ebay in gallon cans for much cheaper.

+1 on Royco fluid. Available at most aviation facilities and Pilot's Shops too.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

+1 on Royco fluid. Available at most aviation facilities and Pilot's Shops too.

I used this when I replaced the steering actuator. Cheaper and better than Sea Star fluid

 

[O C Diver]

I'm not recommending whether or not you should change your steering fluid, but if you do, you're basically flushing the old fluid out by pushing new fluid through the system. This is because you won't be able to easily drain the horizontal lines. If I were going to do it, I would expect to push several times the capacity of the the system through the lines and rudder cylinder. It's basically about whether you want 70% new fluid or 99% new fluid in the system. There are definitely advantages to having new clean fluid in the system. Would guess that it would extend the life of helm pumps and steer cylinder seals.

Ted

 

[psneeld]

What you need to know about moisture contamination in engine lube and hydraulic oil

 

[Martin J]

I used to use seastar, but changed to tellus 32, 20% of the cost. Had a leaky fwd seal in the helm units. Poor design so changed seals to Metric a few thou larger and no leak.

I have wagner Model A-W steering pumps. Bleeding is easy, but can be time consuming letting the system settle (air rises into pockets at high points) Helps if you have installed a valve between the ram connections. Then its turn the helm hard over, open the valve and keep tuning the wheel, till no air bubbles out the fill hole . Then repeat on the opposite helm over. You just need to ensure your bleeding the ram side with the least oil in. Hence ensuring the ram is hard over.

 

[rwidman]

Greetings,
Mr. BG. Good grief! $1K to $1.5K? Stay away from those shops in future. I would simply fill the system using Sea Star fluid and bleed out the air. NOT hard at all.

It's a bit harder than you think. It either takes two people or a power bleeder. Sea Star has the bleeding instructions on their website.

The real problem for the OP is what is causing the problem. The helms can wear out, the seals can wear or leak, etc. and so can the cylinder. Steering fluid does not wear out or go bad with age. Simply replacing it won't change anything unless the problem is air in the system. That can be fixed without replacing the fluid although you will need extra fluid.

You can re-use fluid from the bleeding process if it's not contaminated. Filter it through a coffee filter.

 

[johnma]

Unless your fluid is contaminated there is no need to change it in a manual system. Hydraulic fluid wears when exposed to high operating temperatures (above 160 degrees F).
In a manual system your temperature will never get more than a few degrees above ambient. I've been in the hydraulic industry for the last 45 years. When I was in the navy I was the guy that flew from ship to ship to solve hydraulic problems so I'm just not giving you an opinion as a part time mechanic. If you have water issues you can take a sample and put it in a clear container. leave it overnight to see if there is any separation. Depending on the additives in your fluid, water may not separate but the fluid will be cloudy if its contaminated. If your sample is clear just add the proper fluid and bleed the air. Do not mix types of fluid.
John

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. WK. "It's a bit harder than you think." Um, not really. I've done the Wagner system (2 station) after hydraulic hose replacement on our "large" boat by myself and the Seastar system (2 station) with a friend (the OP did say his wife would assist) on our 23' Penn Yan.
I agree that hydraulic fluid does not wear out and there may be a leak somewhere or the system was never bled/topped up properly.

 

[River Cruiser]

I've bleed my Hynautic system by myself after plumbing in the AP pump, took maybe 1 hour. It sounds to me like the people you've talked to are either trying to rip you off or don't know what their doing. You want to avoid either type.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

I've bleed my Hynautic system by myself after plumbing in the AP pump, took maybe 1 hour. It sounds to me like the people you've talked to are either trying to rip you off or don't know what their doing. You want to avoid either type.

My Hynautic manual says the same thing. Good point.

 

[BernieG]

Thanks all, great input. The Seastar folks recommends replacement of fluid at 5 years. I note it is ISO 15 VG, and so understand matching the fluid should be to the same viscosity specs, as well as containing additives to prevent corrosion/extend seal life. Also I wondered if this fluid was hygroscopic but now understand mineral oil and silicone based fluids are not hygroscopic. As it seems there is probably air in the top flybridge steering unit (as control is sloppy) then looks like I'll have to purge it through the whole system to get it out. That manual pump looks interesting, I'll definately check that out.

Cheers
Bernie

 

[rwidman]

First, top of the fluid. You may find that you've solved the problem.


I must have missed the part about replacing the fluid every five years. Where did you see that?

 

[BernieG]

I think it was in my Tug manual, and here: Caring For Your Hydraulic Steering - BoatUS Magazine

 

[koliver]

Greetings,
Mr. WK. "It's a bit harder than you think." Um, not really. I've done the Wagner system (2 station) after hydraulic hose replacement on our "large" boat by myself and the Seastar system (2 station) with a friend (the OP did say his wife would assist) on our 23' Penn Yan.
I agree that hydraulic fluid does not wear out and there may be a leak somewhere or the system was never bled/topped up properly.

I took my Wagner AP pump out for repairs, after it started to leak onto the ER floor. I had to add fluid at the FB helm. Wagner specified using Telus 10, which I got inexpensively. I had to replace the Wagner pump when it failed again, so there was another leak event onto the ER floor and another addition of fluid at the upper helm. Easy job, took a lot longer to disconnect and reconnect the hoses at the pump and clean up the mess, than to top up and bleed the system at the upper helm.