Crane goes crazy and I'm lucky

[Northern Spy]

Sorry to disagree but my Warn DC1000 is rated as a 1000lb hoist.

Line pull is rated on a bare drum. As the rope layers increase (radius increases) on the drum, the capacity decreases.


Warns ratings with 1/4" wire rope are
Layer 1 1000lbs
Layer 2 835lbs
Layer 3 717lbs
Layer 4 628lbs

 

[RickyD]

If they're saying not to use a breaker, I wouldn't trust a single bit of advice they're giving. No breaker (or too big) means the whole thing is a fire hazard. Personally, I'd be inclined to try an 80A breaker and see if it trips too easily. It probably won't trip unless you stall the motor. If it does trip, then go for the 90A.

My electrician agrees with you

 

[RickyD]

Line pull is rated on a bare drum. As the rope layers increase (radius increases) on the drum, the capacity decreases.


Warns ratings with 1/4" wire rope are
Layer 1 1000lbs
Layer 2 835lbs
Layer 3 717lbs
Layer 4 628lbs

Yes I calculated that originally when I was shopping for a replacement. My previous winch motor was a Rule 3300 which actually lifted it though it rated for an inclined pull. I use Dyneema which stretches quite flat and probably changes those numbers. I eliminated most all of the excess line on the spool to avoid unnecessary wraps. I probably overestimated the weight of the dinghy to be safe. Now it is hard for me to see how many wraps are on the spool but it does not seem to have a problem lifting the boat. Does the motor slow down as it gets to the top, yes. But, again, no discernable strain. My solenoids came with the boat and may be 31 years old.

 

[RickyD]

Ok, a little more. My defective solenoids are the old style but they behind a wall panel in the forward hanging locker. I had them out, cleaned (they didn't need it), reinstalled four years ago. There was nor is there any corrosion externally. They look new. The only thing I could have done better was to realize that they are old and therefore should be replaced just because. I never considered they could fry in the on position. I just figured they would quit working when going bad.

Item 2. in my situation I was taking up 12" of slack in my cable to control the weight as it is attached to the base of my on deck dinghy support rails and I had lowered the arm down to its storage position. Guess how much time it takes to suck up 12" of unloaded line. Just enough to switch the up switch off and on a couple times before the explosion with the compressed dinghy tube launching the crane arm into my left leg with considerable force. So, even getting to the electrical end of the crane arm to some disconnect was impossible. Maybe if the stuck solenoid was lifting the boat all the way up off the deck to the top and I was standing right next to the crane arm I could have thought fast enough to pull the plug. Maybe. Maybe not. I hope this never happens to any one else. The lesson, replace old solenoids that may stick before they do. I've never before had it happen. Didn't know.

 

[C lectric]

Just a question for now. What is the relay mfg. name and model?

 

[Circumnavigator]

I think the answer to the breaker popping question is "it depends". The Marquipt crane on Morning Light does not have a limit switch on the wire, which is a reverse block and tackle pulled by a hydraulic cylinder. So, if you hold down the up button, the hook just stops coming in at the end of the cylinder travel and the pressure relief valve lets the hydraulic fluid pass.


I assume that this is a 12VDC or 24VDC motor, not 120VAV or 240VAC? DC is much harder to turn off than AC -- AC turns itself off 120 times a second (in 60Hz countries) so the arc between the opening contacts gets broken quickly. A DC arc has nothing to break it, so it continues longer and requires better quality contacts. Many marine items -- potable water pumps come to mind -- have switches that aren't really up to the task. That may be the case here.


The various definitions of "Davit" that I found agree that it is a type of crane found on a ship and generally used for hoisting boats or anchors. So you would be correct using either word.


Jim

 

[Northern Spy]

Davits are also used for entering vertical access confined spaces (like a manhole) and used to hang scaffolding off of a structure, as well as shipboard use.

I've had the pleasure (?) to use all types and my varied career.

 

[RickyD]

Just a question for now. What is the relay mfg. name and model?

My old ones or new one?

 

[RickyD]

Ok, an update. I bought the 500A two way solenoid with wireless remotes. My dock mate who helped me install the similar unit for my other crane, helped me with this one. Once confidently set up I threw the breaker and the lights jumped, and the hoist did not move when requested. I thorough check found that the 135A breaker did not break but a 200A ANL fuse did. So off to the store for another fuse and we'll have to disassemble and try again.

 

[BigTime]

Ok, update: I'm on the boat now and when I activated the breaker, the winch motor started so that means it is the solenoid that stuck. Makes sense. I ordered a new Up/Down 500A solenoid with wireless remotes. I can still use the hand held tethered control but the wireless is nice. Just like I put on my other crane.

Ok, I'm back to an unanswered question. Is it a crane or a davit?

I strongly recommend adding that quick access power disconnect. I have a wireless remote for my transom mounted davits. On two occasions my 2500# winch has mysteriously engaged and attempted to grind my dinghy through my transom. Fortunately both engagements were brief so no damage. I am certain it was the wireless responding to stray RF. I have since added a battery disconnect right inside my transom that can be easily accessed and leave everything powered down when not in use.

Just a side note about a sticking or corroded solenoid. Twenty years ago I anchored in the lee of Bimini to catch a few hours sleep before a gulf stream trip home , at 3am my windless decided it wanted to pull up my anchor all by itself. Really worried me about what could have happened if we had been away from the boat. I have since installed easy windless power disconnects on all my boats and also leave it unpowered when not in use.

 

[diver dave]

I strongly recommend adding that quick access power disconnect…..



Just a side note about a sticking or corroded solenoid. Twenty years ago I anchored in the lee of Bimini to catch a few hours sleep before a gulf stream trip home , at 3am my windless decided it wanted to pull up my anchor all by itself. Really worried me about what could have happened if we had been away from the boat. I have since installed easy windless power disconnects on all my boats and also leave it unpowered when not in use.

Unwanted excitement. [emoji30]

Seawater got into a switch?

 

[Iggy]

The 1,000# rated winch is too small for an 800# tender. The 1,000# is rated for a straight horizontal pull. Once you change to a vertical lift and your dyneema travels over a sheave you have reduced the winch’s capacity dramatically. I would urge you to replace the winch with at least a 2,500# capacity.

I would have to agree. Even if if every thing is equal! A 1000lbs winch constantly lifting 800lbs does not give too much room for comfort. Your reaching very close to its limits. The were and tear on the host came though.

Now if you add any pulleys into this. It raises the load on the host.

 

[RickyD]

I would have to agree. Even if if every thing is equal! A 1000lbs winch constantly lifting 800lbs does not give too much room for comfort. Your reaching very close to its limits. The were and tear on the host came though.

Now if you add any pulleys into this. It raises the load on the host.

I understand but this was the largest hoist that would fit in my crane. I do use it regularly, I hope it lasts a while

 

[Circumnavigator]

You might add a single block with a shackle and dead end the hoist line back on the crane, giving you two parts and a nominal hoist capacity of 2,000 pounds. It would be slower, but peace of mind is worth a little waiting.


Jim

 

[RickyD]

The 1,000# rated winch is too small for an 800# tender. The 1,000# is rated for a straight horizontal pull. Once you change to a vertical lift and your dyneema travels over a sheave you have reduced the winch’s capacity dramatically. I would urge you to replace the winch with at least a 2,500# capacity.

Well I guess I called it a winch but it is a hoist. Warn DC1000 short spool hoist. My 800# estimate is high and as mentioned, I removed most of the excess dyneema cable to avoid the wrap issue. So far it has done very well. The problem was with old solenoids.

So my buddy who helped me install a similar two way solenoid for my other crane now helped me install it for this one. He wired every thing up the way it appeared to be accurate according to supplied diagrams and odd Chinese English instructions. When ready I activated the common breaker as mentioned originally as I figured I'd add the new breaker later. So this 130 amp breaker is one of those that has an lever that drops down when you push the off button and you close the arm by squeezing it into position. Well my light flicked and nothing happened. Nothing worked not even the windlass which is also attached to the breaker. An investigation discovered that a 200 amp ANL fuse had blown. At first I wondered how that fuse would blow when some of the wires used are quite thin. I later realized that there must me a major screw up on the wiring with the heavy lines or the solenoid was bad from the factory. So why didn't my breaker blow at 130 amps vs 200 amp fuse? Well I was squeezing it closed and the blow was immediate. Ok, call in the real electrician. I'll try to test the solenoid. Also, I drove to several stops to find a new ANL fuse with no luck. Worst Marine had one but I was done for the day so I ordered some (I also have 40,50, 80,100, and 250 ANL fuses used) extra fuses online. Should arrive this week.

 

[RickyD]

Ricky,
See if you can find data for the stall current and running current in amps of the winch motor you have, maybe contact manufacturer. Breakers trip on a current/time curve. or measure with a clamp on current meter.

I think you are on the right track with contactor rated for 500 amps, that's the best place to break the working current. Consider the panel breaker protects from fault current in the wires or load, not necessarily motor stall current.

Edit: I missed Ready's comment #22, that is good and along the lines of my thinking too.

Rated max current draw on the hoist is 87 amps at 12v. I'm thinking about a 90 amp breaker.

 

[KnotYet]

Rated max current draw on the hoist is 87 amps at 12v. I'm thinking about a 90 amp breaker.

I think as long as the wiring is adequate for the 87 amp max load, the
breaker should be rated higher than 90 amps. I'm thinking 100-125 amps.
Breakers last longer if they aren't used at currents near their rated value.

 

[rslifkin]

I think as long as the wiring is adequate for the 87 amp max load, the
breaker should be rated higher than 90 amps. I'm thinking 100-125 amps.
Breakers last longer if they aren't used at currents near their rated value.

I wouldn't go too much higher. The breaker exists for 2 reasons in an application like this. It's to protect the wiring, but also to stop the motor from burning up if overloaded. 100 amps is probably ok, but no more.

 

[rgano]

Plus one big time on never leaving the fate of hoists and windlasses to the vagaries of the last on/off or up/down switch in the line. Been there, done that with the middle-of-the-night windlass powering up due to water intrusion in a switch after a long rough passage.

 

[rslifkin]

For my windlass I don't cut off the high current circuit, but power to the control circuit gets switched off as soon as I'm done using it. That takes bad switches, etc. out of the loop. And as long as the solenoid disengages, it's not going to just re-engage later.

 

[RickyD]

Ok, Update. The reason we blew a fuse when first installing the new solenoid was because we wired it backwards. How? Well we didn't test things properly when we installed it the first time and we had the battery cables and the motor cables reversed. How you may ask. Well only a little stupid. The battery cables come into that area from above and the hoist motor cables come in from below. As we were looking at it I remembered the motor cables were fed down inside the support shaft and out the bottom. Stupid for not double checking everything. Now I still have some switch issue with the tethered remote. The hydraulic arm goes up and down but the hoist motor does not activate. The wireless remote is designed to just run the hoist motor and it does. A little more investigation will fix this one thing then on to the next problem. Coolant heat exchanger.

 

[fgarriso]

Ok, update: I'm on the boat now and when I activated the breaker, the winch motor started so that means it is the solenoid that stuck. Makes sense. I ordered a new Up/Down 500A solenoid with wireless remotes. I can still use the hand held tethered control but the wireless is nice. Just like I put on my other crane.

Ok, I'm back to an unanswered question. Is it a crane or a davit?

It's both a crane and davit. One is bigger than the other, or cost more, you pick one.

 

[RickyD]

Ok, I'm having a problem hooking up the new reversing solenoid. It has wireless capability. So, the wireless remote will make the cable come in and out and the tethered remote will make the hydraulic boom go up and down but I can't get the tethered remote to operate the both. Is that a problem with new solenoid? Or, is it connected wrong? Can one solenoid control both? I thought my old system had an up solenoid and a down solenoid. I all worked until it didn't. I thought the reversing solenoid would replace both but now the problem is with the control.

 

[Bmarler]

Ok, I'm having a problem hooking up the new reversing solenoid. It has wireless capability. So, the wireless remote will make the cable come in and out and the tethered remote will make the hydraulic boom go up and down but I can't get the tethered remote to operate the both. Is that a problem with new solenoid? Or, is it connected wrong? Can one solenoid control both? I thought my old system had an up solenoid and a down solenoid. I all worked until it didn't. I thought the reversing solenoid would replace both but now the problem is with the control.

The name “reversing solenoid” implies that it covers both directions. A typical reversing solenoid would actually have two coils and some sort of interlock to prevent both coils from being activated at the same time.
You should be able to hear or feel the solenoids activate, or if they’re dampened, you have to read with a volt meter.