When Does it Become Cost Prohibited?

[Hippocampus]

Nordhavn 51 displacement is 71,575 lbs before cruising supplies.
Artnautica 58 displacement is 30,000 lbs fully found and stocked.
Range is greater for the 58 and hourly fuel burn less at a greater operational cruising speed.
GRP is not recyclable. Al is.
Both boats have equivalent berthing and level of accoutrements.
One is made of petrochemicals. The other energy intensive mining and smelting. About a wash.
Like cars think recreational boat design and available series production vessels will change paradigm with an eye toward efficiency. The nordhavn per pound is likely very efficient but decreasing displacement, prismatic coefficient and parasitic drag while allowing a good cruising platform will become a increasingly attractive option.

 

[KnotYet]

There are now about 600 wind turbines operating in South Dakota. Each fiberglass blade weighs about 14 tons, or 28,000 lbs. (or more), at least in this region of the country. (I get that figure from a delivery of over 100 turbine blades to the Sioux Falls landfill in 2019.) Three blades per turbine. Each blade is around 125 feet long and costs around $125,000. They can last for a couple decades but most are replaced in about 10 years. Some companies are poking around with ideas for recycling, but at least for now, almost all of them get deposited in landfills and will sit there for a few thousand years. About 1,000 turbines were trashed in the last year, including some portion dropped at the (taxpayer-funded) landfill just outside Sioux Falls.

With the exception of maybe hydro, the idea that "renewable" power and EV is all green and environmentally benign and would make Greta Thunberg happy is just nonsense. There is no free lunch.

Nobody thinks or says that renewable power is 'all green and environmentally
benign' except those that are trying - and failing - to make points for the current
energy production and usage paradigm. Is it better? No argument there, IMO.

How many millions of tons less carbon do the hundreds of tons of eventual waste
from wind turbines represent to the environment is the real issue and that works.

Now calculate the equivalent amount of waste resulting from petroleum burning plants.

 

[Art]

I love good fiction. You had me right to the point where you said Jet Fuel. FAA approval is likely measured in decades for things that don't exist. Then you would need to get engine manufacturers to sign off on fuel other than what their engines were certified for, which isn't going to happen (it's a liability thing). So if the magic fuel is developed and eventually approved by the FAA to meet the current thrust requirements of jet fuel, you're then down to the couple of decades to work all the old engine aircraft through retirement.

Ted

Ted - If you only knew what has actually happened and is currently happening as result thereof. You'd realize this is reality, not "good fiction"; as you are so inclined to errantly believe. Be careful what you say... not having 25 years background in this new-source fuel topic, such as I do.

What can be done by using the enormous CO2 overload in atmosphere:

The last 100 plus years of carbon rich fossil fuel [of all types - utilized in every way of burning it], whose CO2 emissions primarily still remain in atmosphere, means the biggest "oil well" ever found is now what has become assimilated into Earth's global ambient air curtain. Ways to mine this world encompassing [fuel source] property and turn it into Full-Cycle, Carbon Neutral, fungible/drop-in gasoline, diesel and jet fuels is well on the horizon and will become world-span manifest. On several levels, it's manufacturing originations are already being successfully accomplished with trade-secret [and some not so trade-secret] prototype equipment.

 

[O C Diver]

Ted - If you only knew what has actually happened and is currently happening as result thereof. You'd realize this is reality, not "good fiction"; as you are so inclined to errantly believe. Be careful what you say... not having 25 years background in this new-source fuel topic, such as I do.

I don't doubt that a substitute can be developed, getting through the FAA and the legacy engines is another issue. In the 1970s we adopted unlead gas for automobiles. There is still 100LL (100 Low Lead) for approximately 30% of airplanes, 40+ years later!

Ted

 

[rslifkin]

I don't doubt that a substitute can be developed, getting through the FAA and the legacy engines is another issue. In the 1970s we adopted unlead gas for automobiles. There is still 100LL (100 Low Lead) for approximately 30% of airplanes, 40+ years later!

Ted

As much as 100LL is still around, there are cases where older engines designed for 100LL have been subsequently approved to run on other fuels (sometimes with modification or altered operating procedures).

 

[Art]

As much as 100LL is still around, there are cases where older engines designed for 100LL have been subsequently approved to run on other fuels (sometimes with modification or altered operating procedures).

And, as climate-protection needs become ever more apparent, which they most definably are now while continuing to become ever more elevated requirements, there will be giant concessions as well as newly developed abandonments/outlaw-rules made in order to salvage civilizations future; i.e. to "Save Earth's Ecosphere"!

 

[Fletcher500]

My daughter works for this company; https://www.twelve.co/

Still early, but a good example of sharp people coming up with solutions.

 

[O C Diver]

As much as 100LL is still around, there are cases where older engines designed for 100LL have been subsequently approved to run on other fuels (sometimes with modification or altered operating procedures).

Big difference between some recreational and light commercial plane running on 100LL substitute and an airliner crossing the ocean with 500 passengers on a jet fuel substitute.

Ted

 

[FWT]

I do wish that those who push / create the great alternatives would also push domestic production of the gear. We have seen enough supply chain issues and now import / export bans around the globe that building reliance on stuff built elsewhere is asking for trouble, when the stuff is critical infrastructure.

 

[Art]

My daughter works for this company; https://www.twelve.co/

Still early, but a good example of sharp people coming up with solutions.

Thanks for jumping in here, Fletcher500. Your daughter's company has good folks! Cool company!! I've put them onto list for contact... as my company moves into acquiring large scale funds. I'm in close contact with some heavy duty operators for helping to "Save Earth's Ecosystem".

As Earth's climate, environments and ecosystem experience severe stress for keeping Earth's natural life giving and life supporting conditions in "good enough condition" to support humanity... there is a critical mass forming of we inventors who can/will join hands to STOP Global Warming.

Plethora of existing paradigms will be challenged. Some will morph into uniquely different design-conditions for their survival. Some will fail to continue existing. But, new paradigms will arise as replacements that will help to "Save Earth's Ecosphere"! That's a guarantee!!

Art

 

[Hippocampus]

FWT. Truly hope that’s a lesson learned. Those who don’t understand history are doomed to repeat it.

Now if we can freeze the US treasuries China holds for Russia this atrocity will stop and fuel/gas will drop like a stone.

 

[BandB]

Reluctantly contributing to this far off topic thread, but an announcement today got my attention.

Maersk announced the addition of 300 all electric trucks for 2023-2025. Their goal is fully electric. The numbers shown in the release are that globally road freight is responsible for 8% of all carbon dioxide emissions. In the US, heavy duty trucks comprise about 1/4 of the transportation greenhouse gas emissions.

We've looked closely at Freightliner eCascadias. Schneider is initially adding 50 in California. I'm not attempting to convert anyone, but just more clarity that the movement to electric is well underway and going to happen.

 

[rslifkin]

Big difference between some recreational and light commercial plane running on 100LL substitute and an airliner crossing the ocean with 500 passengers on a jet fuel substitute.

Ted

Agreed. The certifications wouldn't be nearly as easy, so I wouldn't expect to see them for every plane still out there, only those with large enough active fleets to support it. I know tests on biofuel / jet fuel blends have been done with commercial aircraft. I just did a little more research on it and it looks like a couple of airline / airplane / engine combos have gotten approval to use the stuff for revenue flights as far back as 10 years ago.

 

[cks]

It’s a cycle. Don’t sweat the small stuff.
The increased pricing was a given based upon the recovery from Coved. EVERYONE wants to go go go!
Putin invading Ukraine exacerbated the problem.
This will pass.
Use your boat. You have less years in front of you than behind you.

 

[trihartsfield]

In the NEAR future the best way to really work towards alternative energy is to get the cost of home solar decreased to where 70 percent of people can afford it.

That could have a significant impact.

 

[Northern Spy]

In the NEAR future the best way to really work towards alternative energy is to get the cost of home solar decreased to where 70 percent of people can afford it.

That could have a significant impact.

Unless you live in an area where the sun doesn't shine so much...

 

[Simi 60]

In the NEAR future the best way to really work towards alternative energy is to get the cost of home solar decreased to where 70 percent of people can afford it.

That could have a significant impact.

Solar is dirt cheap if you want it to be

Near new 2nd hand 270w panels are as little as $30 if you aren't fussy on brand.

30 seconds finds 28 panels and inverter for $400

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/bibra-lake/building-materials/solar-panels-second-hand/1285626391

 

[Hippocampus]

Tried to spec and get zoning approval for the small wind generators you see on the ridges of houses in parts of Europe. Live with 1 m of the ocean on a fresh water pond. Between the open water not blocking the wind and thermal effects we get more steady wind then our surroundings. Know from my experience with having two D400s on the prior boat solar does great in the summer but not so much in the short clement days of the winter. Like Fatty’s experience got more power from wind than solar during the winter and way more from solar in the summer.
Usually you need around 10kts. of wind for it to be useful. However on the ridge of my roof at dawn and dust thermals do that. But permitting was impossible. We’d be under the red light height of 100’ but still no go. Apparently there’s no carve out for very small, residential wind generators. This is unfortunate. For folks living near large areas of open water or on mountains where thermals are routinely present wind is a fairly cheap, low tech, reliable option. These small generators now have excellent bearings and improved blade design so are nearly noiseless. They do not require rare earths or metals.

 

[sunchaser]

Hippo
Like barking dogs, some (not all) home centric windmills make screeching humming noises but are never heard by the owners. Many zoning laws were written long ago when windmills were common for filling livestock tanks. Banning farm animals and windmills from suburban areas seemed to mean gentrification had arrived.

Get a large group of neighbors and sign a petition about the "ravages" of climate change. Then go to your town council meetings and open floor extol the virtues of windmills without tilting too much. Don't mention you sold your sailboat and bought a diesel burner though.

 

[trihartsfield]

Unless you live in an area where the sun doesn't shine so much...

Very good point. I think overall it could help.

 

[trihartsfield]

Solar is dirt cheap if you want it to be

Near new 2nd hand 270w panels are as little as $30 if you aren't fussy on brand.

30 seconds finds 28 panels and inverter for $400

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/bibra-lake/building-materials/solar-panels-second-hand/1285626391

Yes you can but what I was talking about is a system that will power a 1200 square foot house and above completely, without any noticeable change in someone’s daily activities. That is when it becomes cost prohibitive to most.

 

[Hippocampus]

Wasn’t town . In a park setting. Had the same problem on the boat in certain marinas. Reality is the D400s and several of the current offerings are truly near silent. Understand the laws about straight pipes on motorcycles which I also consider obnoxious although I’m a lifelong rider but the tech here has improved.

We live in a wooded area. After arguing with conservation was allowed to cut down a few trees. Our payback on BUYING not leasing our solar was 3 1/2 years with current tax effects and decrease in utilities. We get a monthly check from our utility except for 2-3 months a year. Over a year however we are revenue positive with no utility outlays at all even now as we’ve taken all our tax credits. We pay for water. Wasn’t allowed to dig a well as we are too close to a town park pond. If that wasn’t the case would have no utility bills at all. There’s a reason many companies are more than willing to lease your roof space or have you lease panels. The economics of small time residential solar works even without tax incentives as is a no brainer with them. Sure there’s exceptions due to climate or site. But think they are exceptional.

 

[Capt Ray]

My tank is topped of with the cheap ass fuel they were selling us 6 months ago. Can't wait to get some of this newer higher quality stuff. <wink>

 

[Fletcher500]

Production and consumption of oil can harmoniously exist with the simultaneous development of renewable resources. No reason to fight it, or take it personally.

 

[KnotYet]

Unless you live in an area where the sun doesn't shine so much...

Very good point. I think overall it could help.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Denmark

 

[BandB]

Wasn’t town . In a park setting. Had the same problem on the boat in certain marinas. Reality is the D400s and several of the current offerings are truly near silent. Understand the laws about straight pipes on motorcycles which I also consider obnoxious although I’m a lifelong rider but the tech here has improved.

We live in a wooded area. After arguing with conservation was allowed to cut down a few trees. Our payback on BUYING not leasing our solar was 3 1/2 years with current tax effects and decrease in utilities. We get a monthly check from our utility except for 2-3 months a year. Over a year however we are revenue positive with no utility outlays at all even now as we’ve taken all our tax credits. We pay for water. Wasn’t allowed to dig a well as we are too close to a town park pond. If that wasn’t the case would have no utility bills at all. There’s a reason many companies are more than willing to lease your roof space or have you lease panels. The economics of small time residential solar works even without tax incentives as is a no brainer with them. Sure there’s exceptions due to climate or site. But think they are exceptional.

Payback on our home is 20 years. Three bids, all much the same. Part of it is our utility and the state have created such rules that the grid fee remains. The other part is our home is so efficient. All lights are LED. Insulation is very high. Doors and windows and roof all to CAT 5 hurricane specifications. Energy efficient A/C. Our electric bill is shockingly low.

As to retail stores, still struggling to get anything to work. Would have been easy had we not previously switched to 100% LED. Lighting was our largest consumption, now it's Air Conditioning but most units now very efficient. Then we don't own our buildings so have to get landlord agreement.

Now the place we've found some payback is manufacturing. Put 500 sewing machines in a building and suddenly solar may have a decent, although not great payback.

Still, I do await the next leap in solar technology. I believe it will come and when it does it will make solar far more practical for residential and commercial. Meanwhile our utilities fighting to protect themselves and in Florida have the state government helping them, but even they are building solar capacity.

 

[Art]

Production and consumption of oil can harmoniously exist with the simultaneous development of renewable resources. No reason to fight it, or take it personally.

Absolutely Correct!

Once climate heat increase is stopped... and, then annual climate temp is lowered just a bit... civilization will become the true "grounds keeper" for thermostatically controlling Earth's Ecospheric conditions.

Carbon positive, carbon neutral and even some sorts of carbon negative fuels will eventually be co-utilized [intermingled] as added parts for civilization's thermostatic control over Earth's air, land and water temperatures.

Hey, I'm not saying this isn't the biggest, most important, longest term job ever to face humanity!! - Well... Caus it is!!! But, please understand, the alternative is death of humanity as well as millions of other life forms.

Soooo... Some body's gotta do it! Tag - We're IT!

 

[SteveK]

B&B mentioned 20 year payback. That makes it a large outlay to justify for us older ones.

Perhaps it is time for the sunny parts of the world to change the new home building code to make solar panel a must install. That is a cost that can be absorbed by the new world order. It will phase in electric and phase out dino.
Every parking stall outfitted with charging stations for the cars.

 

[hollywood8118]

Payback on our home is 20 years. Three bids, all much the same. Part of it is our utility and the state have created such rules that the grid fee remains. The other part is our home is so efficient. All lights are LED. Insulation is very high. Doors and windows and roof all to CAT 5 hurricane specifications. Energy efficient A/C. Our electric bill is shockingly low.

As to retail stores, still struggling to get anything to work. Would have been easy had we not previously switched to 100% LED. Lighting was our largest consumption, now it's Air Conditioning but most units now very efficient. Then we don't own our buildings so have to get landlord agreement.

Now the place we've found some payback is manufacturing. Put 500 sewing machines in a building and suddenly solar may have a decent, although not great payback.

Still, I do await the next leap in solar technology. I believe it will come and when it does it will make solar far more practical for residential and commercial. Meanwhile our utilities fighting to protect themselves and in Florida have the state government helping them, but even they are building solar capacity.

No need to worry about the 20 year payback, if the sea level rise happens at the rate the far left claim Florida will be under water before then.
HOLLYWOOD

 

[BandB]

No need to worry about the 20 year payback, if the sea level rise happens at the rate the far left claim Florida will be under water before then.
HOLLYWOOD

Well, as someone living on the sea, the sea level rise is real. We're not underwater that quickly, but we're noticeably changing. We're talking 3.4 inches over 25 years but an accelerating pace. Current forecast by local governments in South Florida is 10-17 inches over next 20 years at current pace. Last century, the Florida coast averaged 2 mm per year so about 8 inches over the century. Last time we measured on our seawall was just over 1.5 inches since we moved here. The biggest issue is after storms the drainage canals are not flowing as they did. So, we won't be underwater in 20 years but without some change we will face some serious challenges.