Stabilized or not?

[dirtdoc1]

I added Keypower fins last year. They run off of a PTO on the main engine. About $50k installed! Better to buy a boat with them. No more rolling!

 

[captks]

I have ABT-TRAC stabilizers on my Krogen 42. They are absolutely fantastic and I thank the previous owner (2 ago) that had them installed. I can tell it was a ton of work but they are absolutely a necessity and not just on the ocean. I run them (as instructed) whenever I am in motion and they do a good job of reducing roll even on the ICW when boats are going by.

 

[Vahevala]

Agreed, water maker, solar, inverter all on the list but these are easier to retrofit than stabilizers. We added solar, inverter/charger and 6v battery bank to our previous trawler and it made life on the hook so much more enjoyable. We definitely want that again! Right now, the struggle is just finding any boat that fits our needs. The inventory is low and demand is high, not the best time to be shopping but we’ve already sold the trawler and the house so here we go!

 

[Peter Pegasus]

I assume you are looking at this Seahorse 52 in CA:
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2006/seahorse-long-range-cruiser-3720421/
it is not stabilized. Some were, for example this one, 2007:
https://www.seattleyachts.com/used-yachts-for-sale/52-Seahorse-Marine-Pilothouse-2007/4444469_3
Others have installed gyros and flopper stoppers, for example this one, 2004:
https://yachthub.com/list/boats-for-sale/used/power-boats/seahorse-52/235831
[but the gyro reportedly is not usable in really big seas on that boat].
The Seahorse's were apparently built with a section of the hull strengthened for stabilizers in the ER. See
https://www.boats.com/power-boats/2021-seahorse-52-sedan-trawler-522273/
for the building specs by Seahorse which state:
"CONSTRUCTION: Clear gelcoat to be used below the water line and the first mat layer is installed resin rich using vinylester plus two coats of Jotun "Safeguard" coal tar epoxy for blister control. Deck lay-up includes core for stiffness and mat with double roving inside and outside laminates, overlapping and interlaced double lapping at stem and keel. Bottom solid lay-up varies from 3/4" to 1 1/2". Hard roller used for proper resin/glass ratio and to minimize entrapped air. Hull to deck joint bedded in epoxy, bolted and heavily glassed inside and outside. Interior construction to allow easy access to hull to deck joint and stanchion bases. Four large FRP hull stringers, UDR reinforced and built high enough to act as saddles for sole plates. Hull reinforced at proper location for "flopper stopper" stabilization. 4 1/2" reinforced pads installed for active fin stabilizing. All interior furniture heavily glass taped to hull for additional reinforcement. All plywood to be WBP grade or higher."
However, Seahorses evolved each year and 2006 is relatively early. They also customized many boats. So I'd want to check. I understand Seahorse is currently basically moribund in China.
The person who likely knows when they built them with stabilizer-ready hulls is US importer, Andrew Trueblood andrew@oceantrawleryachts.com Ocean Trawler Yachts, Seattle (206) 659-0710--it seems likely by 2006 that they were but I would want to check if I were to buy a boat with installation in mind.
Finally, the earlier Seahorses were 52 LOA; but the later ones imported to US were 54 LOA (and some 52 and 54 were extended with a hull-based swim platform extension to 54 or 56 LOA).
Here for your viewing please are some of the drawings of Seahorses which are hard to find. Enjoy.

 

[Bob and Vicki]

Wouldn't buy a boat without them. (Or add them) Became a convert when we put them on our previously unstabilized boat.

 

[BrianSmith]

This is easy. YOU WANT A STABILIZED BOAT for this type of cruising. Fins, fish, sail, other.....you need some form of stabilizer. Even without beam seas (they often come from every possible direction).

I'm guessing you've never been aboard a stabilized boat. If you had, chances are the question doesn't need to be asked let alone answered.

Peter

Exactly what he said! We've lived aboard our 52' full displacement trawler (steel - weighs 83,000 lbs) for 5 years and been to Grenada and back. I wouldn't even think about having a boat like you describe, on passages you describe, without stabilizers of some kind.

 

[Vahevala]

That’s why I asked!

 

[Vahevala]

Yes, I realize the Seahorse for sale in CA is not stabilized. That was the impetus of the question. It seems that consensus is we should definitely look for a stabilized boat. We do not want to deal with adding it on to a boat we purchase, would rather wait for the right boat. Thanks for all the input, it’s much appreciated.

 

[rolomart3]

In stormy seas, the crew gives up before the boat does.
One of the major mistakes boaters make is to even consider a boat without stabilizers. The only exception is if you plan to boat in a pond or small lake.

 

[Simi 60]

I would never own an unstable trawler. Only those without them dis them.

If boats are unstable to me that is a design issue.

We don't have them but I do know with full water tanks we have a far better ride than with empty ones - watermaker solved that.
And timing - we are not forced to travel in shitty weather so five years into it I am yet to be convinced the vast outlay for stabilisers is warranted.

 

[mvweebles]

If boats are unstable to me that is a design issue.

We don't have them but I do know with full water tanks we have a far better ride than with empty ones - watermaker solved that.
And timing - we are not forced to travel in shitty weather so five years into it I am yet to be convinced the vast outlay for stabilisers is warranted.

A footnote - Michael Kasten has written a few decent white papers on stabilization. He emphatically states that stabilizers have no effect on a vessel's designed stability. A vessels righting moment and angle of vanishing stability (AVS) remain unchanged. The comfort level is improved, but the basic ability of a boat go remain upright is not.

Peter.

 

[Kit_L]

^^^ What Peter said. And I have read MK's papers too. I built the paravane stabiliser system for our boat, but most of the time (when I am single-handing, which is most of the time) I do not use them. And the reason is I pick the right weather window for transits. BUT (and it's a big but) I can launch them single-handed, and would every time the swell gets over ~2.5m. Better to have some kind of stabilisation than not, I believe.

 

[Vahevala]

If boats are unstable to me that is a design issue.

We don't have them but I do know with full water tanks we have a far better ride than with empty ones - watermaker solved that.
And timing - we are not forced to travel in shitty weather so five years into it I am yet to be convinced the vast outlay for stabilisers is warranted.

We have traveled over 8,000nm in our 37’ trawler with no stabilizers and definitely went in some big waters....Great Lakes, crossing the Gulf, Bahamas, outside NJ. It can be done without stabilizers for sure. Watch your weather, get your boat ready, be prepared. We have been in some big seas and did ok. That being said, if we can find our next boat already stabilized sounds like it would be a smart choice. They are out there in our price range, just need to be patient, and ready to jump when one comes available.

Our top choices right now are Krogen 42 Widebody, Cherubini 50 and DeFever 49 RPH. All 3 can be had with stabilizers, seems like all the DeFever49RPH have them. There is also a Selene 43 stabilized, but it may be too small for full time live aboard.

Thanks for all the input, we appreciate it.

 

[Paula Adams]

Love Our Stabilizers

While not an absolute necessity, we love the stabilizers on our KK Whaleback. Crossed Albermarle Sound just a few days ago and the affect of the 3 and 4 footers on our beam was soooooo greatly diminished. We are moving into the Northeast and will absolutely appreciate the stabilization when we are boating in open ocean.

 

[Circumnavigator]

Vahela, I wouldn’t be too concerned about finding a stabilized boat as one of your criteria, unless your budget cannot cover installing a new system.

There are alot of options out there. Personally for a boat with your 27 mt displacement, which isn’t so heavy, I’d favor a QuickItaly gyro with a small cruise generator to power it underway, over traditional active fins or a Seakeeper.

I'll second this. We cruised Fintry for 15 years without stabilization, around 12,000 miles, including an Atlantic crossing and were occasionally uncomfortable in beam winds over 25 knots.


We added a Quick gyro (a Seakeeper costs more and is much larger) and haven't been uncomfortable since, including a passage from Cape Sable to Boston in 30 knots.


Fintry's gyro weighs 3200 pounds, is 37" on a side, and draws 7kW, but remember that Fintry displaces 150 tons. Maintenance is greasing every 2,000 hours, which Quick says I can do.


I didn't consider fins -- having stuff sticking out the side doesn't appeal to me and they increase fuel consumption even when not needed.


As a practical matter, paravanes must be built into the boat from scratch and using them is both difficult and dangerous. The gyro comes on with the touch of a button, albeit with a delay to come up to speed.


Jim

 

[IRENE]

As a practical matter, paravanes must be built into the boat from scratch and using them is both difficult and dangerous.


Jim

Jim,

With due respect to your cruising accomplishments, this is NOT fact, but one opinion.

There is a member of the forum that has added paravanes to their vessel, and reports satisfaction with their performance. He has posted here on the forum, and generously shares information on you tube. Cruising Sea Venture is the name, and they are no “armchair cruisers”.

I happen to have outriggers and paravanes on our boat. I am not claiming they are perfect, ideal, or that they are best for you. We also operate active fins on the vessel, so I am familiar with “flipping a switch” stabilization too.

The FACTS about paravanes are they are no more difficult or dangerous to use than the ground tackle. They are deployed and recovered with one touch of a button, while guiding them into or out of their nesting location. NOT difficult, and NOT dangerous. This information is widely available.

Lets avoid misinformation for those exploring stabilization options.

 

[mvweebles]

Jim,

With due respect to your cruising accomplishments, this is NOT fact, but one opinion.

There is a member of the forum that has added paravanes to their vessel, and reports satisfaction with their performance. He has posted here on the forum, and generously shares information on you tube. Cruising Sea Venture is the name, and they are no “armchair cruisers”.

I happen to have outriggers and paravanes on our boat. I am not claiming they are perfect, ideal, or that they are best for you. We also operate active fins on the vessel, so I am familiar with “flipping a switch” stabilization too.

The FACTS about paravanes are they are no more difficult or dangerous to use than the ground tackle. They are deployed and recovered with one touch of a button, while guiding them into or out of their nesting location. NOT difficult, and NOT dangerous. This information is widely available.

Lets avoid misinformation for those exploring stabilization options.

IRENE - I'm glad you posted this. I've run several boats with paravanes and did not find them unusually difficult, certainly not dangerous. While I'm no naval architect, I've spent my fair share of time building and rebuilding boat systems. Retrofitting a boat for paravanes is more often the easiest choice compared to gyros or naiaids.

Paravanes have their shortcomings. They do take time to deploy and they are inherently more physical vs flipping a switch. They must be retracted when running a bar/inlet, and are not worth the effort for channels where boar wakes are a problem (ICW). But for long range passages, they are ideal.

All stabalizer systems have strengths and weaknesses based on how they will be used, cost, and desires of the operator. But returning to the topic of the thread, stabilizers are essential for comfortable long range passagemaking on a power boat.

Peter

 

[Changes]

Jim,

With due respect to your cruising accomplishments, this is NOT fact, but one opinion.

There is a member of the forum that has added paravanes to their vessel, and reports satisfaction with their performance. He has posted here on the forum, and generously shares information on you tube. Cruising Sea Venture is the name, and they are no “armchair cruisers”.

I happen to have outriggers and paravanes on our boat. I am not claiming they are perfect, ideal, or that they are best for you. We also operate active fins on the vessel, so I am familiar with “flipping a switch” stabilization too.

The FACTS about paravanes are they are no more difficult or dangerous to use than the ground tackle. They are deployed and recovered with one touch of a button, while guiding them into or out of their nesting location. NOT difficult, and NOT dangerous. This information is widely available.

Lets avoid misinformation for those exploring stabilization options.

Hello Irene I am new to this Forum, making the transition from motorsailor to trawler.

Are there any good instructional videos on installing and operating paravanes?

The reason I ask is my experience with a new Diesel Duck in Philippines where doing shake down cruises with Owner, he had a hell of a time handling and getting them to work in a seaway.

Dolphining in and out of water, they were dangerous , but I put that down to owner and my own lack of experience in using them.

Later, he redesigned a new fish and used successfuly to the Med

 

[IRENE]

Hello Changes,

I haven’t nearly the salt on my brow of some of those here, so I am sure some other more informed members can help with your question.

My first thought is, like anchoring, hoisting the main, or approaching a pier - there are differences for every vessel. Your system of launching a retrieval will need to be designed around your hardware.

Our boat came with a comprehensive owner’s manual. Instructions for the passive stabilizers are NOT included in the manual, so I have nothing formal to share. We received instruction in their use from our broker, who was previously involved in manufacturing our specific boat.

A good reference book is Voyaging Under Power, ISBN 0071767339. There are three earlier editions that could likely provide similar information. The books have specific information to answer your questions.

There are also many videos on YouTube. If you enter PARAVANE and/or PARAVANES in the YouTube search box, you will have access to videos from Cassidy’s Sailing Trawler, Norman Gregory, and others. There is a video involving a Diesel Duck. Also, look up the channel for Cruising Sea Venture - they had a system designed and installed. They are seasoned cruisers and share useful information about their system.

There is a company in the Seattle area that manufactures the paravanes...Kolstrand.

I will conclude by saying there are hundreds of boats within 4 hours of me that have and use paravanes. I am immersed in the boat world here, and I am not hearing about, or reading about, any stories or people taking them off their boats. Similarly, I have not seen any data indicative of SAR missions with paravanes as a component.

Hope this helps - standing by.

 

[IRENE]

Changes,

There are quite a few threads on TF about paravanes. Some are classifieds or not specific to your questions, but there are some nuggets in there.

Good Luck

 

[IRENE]

More reference material with additional references:

http://unsworks.unsw.edu.au/fapi/datastream/unsworks:43/SOURCE01

https://tc.canada.ca/en/marine-tran...ety/ship-safety-bulletins/bulletin-no-15-2000

https://www.cruisingseaventure.com/paravanes-and-refits

Paravanes

 

[mvweebles]

Changes - thanks for the additional context re: diesel duck. I will amend a previous post to say that a poorly designed or used set of paravanes will be dangerous. I used to deliver boats along the west coast and delivered a half dozen with paravanes. They all had cockpits so a good platform to handle fish. The raised aft deck on a boat such as a DD would be challenging. The boats I ran all had electric winches to retrieve the fish which is handy but also an Achilles heel as exposed winches tend to rust out fairly quickly.

I cannot speak to the cyrrent design of DD paravanes specifically, but the couple early DDs I was aboard were solidly built, but showed some flaws indicative of a builder who is not a knowledgeable cruiser, a very common situation. I would not be surprised to learn a given brand just eye-balled a paravane system with nixed results.

These are good stabilization systems and a preferred one for many (not all) use-cases. Of all the threads that mention paravanes, I do not recall any mention of using them on a boat with a raised after deck vs a low cockpit. I'd be curious at responses

Peter

 

[Alaskaflyer]

I noticed one DD with paravanes that have them stored for launching and retrieving from what I think Seahorse Marine calls the swim platform, which is another small little cockpit really.

This one https://youtu.be/Qkwu1aIEUf4

…shows them racked on the railing on the higher main cockpit which yes is the same level as the pilothouse. Unfortunately they don’t demo launching or retrieving though they talk about it.