SS El Faro Disaster

[BandB]

I've seen that mentality in my profession, law enforcement, too. You take a stupid risk, and get away with it. Then, instead of realizing what you did, you decide that the risk was less than you thought, and you do it more times until it bites you.

We see that all the time in recreational boating, especially sailing. I see people encouraged to "just go do it" who have no experience, no knowledge, just bought a small sailboat and it's in awful condition. The justification given is that so and so did it and was fine. They point to the person with no experience and the 20' sailboat and sailed around the world, then wrote about it. Well, those who don't make it, who die at sea, don't write books afterward.

Experiences of others or yourself need to be looked at carefully. Just because you survived doesn't mean it was wise. Likewise, if you were unsuccessful that could be an anomaly as well and isn't evidence that doing the same thing would always fail.

 

[hfoster]

I believe the weight of this calamity can be placed on several shoulders.


1. The Captain should not have stayed asleep for eight (8) hours while his ship was so very close to an extremely dangerous storm.


2. The ship's quality management services at last port of call should have had the hatch that broke loose in better fastened condition.


3. I do not know why senior officers in the crew did not take time to, nor make ample effort to, succeed in awakening the sleeping Captain so that he could be made fully aware of the dangers at hand.


4. TOTE's main office should always have on hand an expert climatologist who can oversee weather conditions during big storms as well as a TOTE's ship heading anywhere near the storm. The climatologist should have authority to at any time make sure [by phone or other means] that the Captain of a ship near a storm confabs directly with he/her for cooperatively made decisions of the ship's heading. In cases such as this... there should be a company policy that if the Captain is asleep - then, immediately wake him/her the heck up!!

Agree with you Art. You know my feeling on stuff like this.

This is really sad and it always is.

Thank you for the update on this one Art!

H.

 

[78puget-trawler]

The book and movie, "The Caine Mutiny" keeps coming to mind in this conversation. As mentioned, take over command of the ship and save it and then battle the courts for doing so since there is no way really to prove it was necessary since you did make it. Trying to prove a negative is always difficult.

 

[Art]

Agree with you Art. You know my feeling on stuff like this.

This is really sad and it always is.

Thank you for the update on this one Art!

H.

Geeeezzzz... H Great to hear from you again! Hope all is well in your and your families world.

I could not believe how similar to the sinking of the Edmond Fitzgerald this SS El Faro was per the depiction on 60 Minutes. My eyes were wide open with ears perked, remembering in detail what you and I went over. One thing quite different was that the Edmond F's captain was not asleep for 8 hours while his ship also ended up encountering an upsetting destiny. In this situation of the El Faro, it was too late to save the ship... even with a newly awake captain. Eerily odd how E F are the initials to both ships.

I again thank you so very much for all the insight and time you enjoyed teaching me whilst I eagerly learned from you... as you thoroughly reviewed the Edmond Fitzgerald's life and tragedy. I then understood much more than ever before regarding ships in the great lakes after we spent many weeks rekindling your knowledge and reviewing soooo many aspects of the E Fitz's calamity.

For those in TF, that read this post, I want to tell you that H is tied at the hip to all aspects of the Edmond Fitzgerald... including it's life filled years and its demise; with all of it's then unfortunate crew included. IMHO, he knows more about the Edmond Fitzgerald's sinking [and full-on reason for sinking] than all the inquiry boards ever found out about or thought they understood the depth of.

Art

 

[BigJim]

Does he have a book written

On the Edmund Fitzgerald?

Geeeezzzz... H Great to hear from you again! Hope all is well in your and your families world.

I could not believe how similar to the sinking of the Edmond Fitzgerald this SS El Faro was per the depiction on 60 Minutes. My eyes were wide open with ears perked, remembering in detail what you and I went over. One thing quite different was that the Edmond F's captain was not asleep for 8 hours while his ship also ended up encountering an upsetting destiny. In this situation of the El Faro, it was too late to save the ship... even with a newly awake captain. Eerily odd how E F are the initials to both ships.

I again thank you so very much for all the insight and time you enjoyed teaching me whilst I eagerly learned from you... as you thoroughly reviewed the Edmond Fitzgerald's life and tragedy. I then understood much more than ever before regarding ships in the great lakes after we spent many weeks rekindling your knowledge and reviewing soooo many aspects of the E Fitz's calamity.

For those in TF, that read this post, I want to tell you that H is tied at the hip to all aspects of the Edmond Fitzgerald... including it's life filled years and its demise; with all of it's then unfortunate crew included. IMHO, he knows more about the Edmond Fitzgerald's sinking [and full-on reason for sinking] than all the inquiry boards ever found out about or thought they understood the depth of.

Art

 

[rclarke246]

Art, you have the privilege, as do many "self employed" of making your own decisions, be they financial, moral, business related, ethical, etc.
Not everyone has that privilege, and it is not always easily exercised, because there are many pressures, external and even internal.
We all make decisions, constantly. When we make decisions we know they often affect others. A surgeon operating, a lawyer on his feet in Court, a Captain of a ship in peril,a coach driver faced with an oncoming car, those decisions are often made under pressure, in an instant. We hope they are right, we aim to be right, and we have to be quick, before the situation worsens out of control. Decisions won`t always be right, that is the nature of man. Often the "right" decision balancing the circumstances becomes blindingly obvious, especially under pressure. Might there be a different decision later, if the luxury of time to reflect, was available?
The primary purpose of an Inquiry to to discover what happened. The best result can be one which guides future conduct to avoid similar catastrophe. Attributing blame after the event to those who faced the agony of the moment and are not here to explain,and perhaps got it wrong, is very hard indeed.

Bruce, Great perspective on this tragedy. Thanks.

 

[Art]

Does he have a book written
On the Edmund Fitzgerald?



You'll have to ask him. He sure knows enough about The E Fitz it to tell all. My learning from H was truly an eye opening and super interesting experience.

 

[78puget-trawler]

I recently watched a documentary on the Fitz sinking. Very interesting and who could forget the Gordon Lightfoot song about it?

 

[psneeld]

OK, anyone giving up the similarities between the two sinkings?

 

[hfoster]

Art me Irish Bro.


Thanks for the kind words, however My Grandfather gets all the credit for schooling me.


Yes I did get the feeling, that the Big Fitz and the SS El Faro were running the same course in a number of ways.


Even the Capts being off the bridge. Yes Art, Capt. McSorley was off the bridge four 5 hours or so after leaving port while the storm was bearing down on them. A great deal of the convo between the Anderson and the Fitz was from the Frist Mate of the Fitz not Capt. McSorley.


Some of the things that, the Big Fitz and the SS El Faro have in common.


Both vessels were cut in half and lengthen to carry more cargo.


Both vessels were old, however passed all safety checks.


Both vessels had hard weather Masters at the helm.


Both Master’s did not have updated weather reports.


Both Master’s knowingly and willing went into deadly storms, placing their vessels and crews in danger.


Both Master’s thought their years of mastering a vessel gave them the skills to run through a deadly storm.


Both Master believed they could skirt around the storm.


Both vessels, while in the storm were taking on water and was damaged do to the power of the storm.


Both vessels were found with hatch covers that came off and heavily damaged.


The saddest fact of all. All crew members on both vessels were lost!


When will Master learn? Cargo, Money or a Job is not worth going into the storm!


No matter what the outcome of this investigation into the SS El Faro is, in the end the Masters of both vessel are to blame.


The Master of any vessel makes the call to leave port. End of story!!!



Alright Art me Irish Bro. Thank you again for the kind words and the my family is doing well. I do hope you and your are just as well.



Cheers Mate.
H.

 

[psneeld]

If one believes that at least the El Faro skipper thought he could skirt the storm...then he didn't knowingly go into a deadly storm....at least the way I understand those 2 comments...and possibly the crux of the whole problem.

If one runs through a risk management checklist...then I will buy some comments...but just to say "knowingly"...I would love to see the supporting facts on that.

Seems like there might be more blame to toss around than just directly at the captain.

 

[hfoster]

If one believes that at least the El Faro skipper thought he could skirt the storm...then he didn't knowingly go into a deadly storm....at least the way I understand those 2 comments...and possibly the crux of the whole problem.

If one runs through a risk management checklist...then I will buy some comments...but just to say "knowingly"...I would love to see the supporting facts on that.

Seems like there might be more blame to toss around than just directly at the captain.

Knowingly? Did the Master know the storm was coming and in his path? Yes he did! He plan to run 60 miles to the south of the storm (Skirting it)

Why would any Master take a vessel out of port?

Cheers.

H.

 

[Art]

Art me Irish Bro.


Thanks for the kind words, however My Grandfather gets all the credit for schooling me.


Yes I did get the feeling, that the Big Fitz and the SS El Faro were running the same course in a number of ways.


Even the Capts being off the bridge. Yes Art, Capt. McSorley was off the bridge four 5 hours or so after leaving port while the storm was bearing down on them. A great deal of the convo between the Anderson and the Fitz was from the Frist Mate of the Fitz not Capt. McSorley.


Some of the things that, the Big Fitz and the SS El Faro have in common.


Both vessels were cut in half and lengthen to carry more cargo.


Both vessels were old, however passed all safety checks.


Both vessels had hard weather Masters at the helm.


Both Master’s did not have updated weather reports.


Both Master’s knowingly and willing went into deadly storms, placing their vessels and crews in danger.


Both Master’s thought their years of mastering a vessel gave them the skills to run through a deadly storm.


Both Master believed they could skirt around the storm.


Both vessels, while in the storm were taking on water and was damaged do to the power of the storm.


Both vessels were found with hatch covers that came off and heavily damaged.


The saddest fact of all. All crew members on both vessels were lost!


When will Master learn? Cargo, Money or a Job is not worth going into the storm!


No matter what the outcome of this investigation into the SS El Faro is, in the end the Masters of both vessel are to blame.


The Master of any vessel makes the call to leave port. End of story!!!



Alright Art me Irish Bro. Thank you again for the kind words and the my family is doing well. I do hope you and your are just as well.



Cheers Mate.
H.

H... Me Irish Boxen Friend

Thanks for answering another poster's question regarding similarities of the two ill fated ships' reaching their resting place with all crew included. It is only you my buddy who has the background and knowledge of the Fitz to post such a well rounded group of bullet points. May all the sailors' souls rest in peace who ever loose their lives while working or just enjoying the sea.

Glad to hear your family is well... mine is also!

- Art

 

[psneeld]

Knowingly? Did the Master know the storm was coming and in his path? Yes he did! He plan to run 60 miles to the south of the storm (Skirting it)

Why would any Master take a vessel out of port?

Cheers.

H.

Because that is what they are paid to do.

 

[hfoster]

Because that is what they are paid to do.

His he getting paid now? Wow! money is never worth a life or the life of any one of a Masters crew!

Cheers.

 

[hfoster]

Art me Irish Bro!

No worries and I am with you on all the lost souls! A Damn shame!

Glad to hear all is well Mate.


Cheers!

H.

 

[psneeld]

His he getting paid now? Wow! money is never worth a life or the life of any one of a Masters crew!

Cheers.

But there is your error...he probably never thought
He was in over his head..that's why assuming he "knew" certain things is always an error in accident investigations.

 

[AlaskaProf]

Because that is what they are paid to do.

"A ship is safe in port, but that is not what ships are for"

--Admiral Grace Hopper

 

[Benthic2]

He knew about the storm, obviously....maybe not as much as he should have...but the things he didn't know about, and couldn't foresee were the hatch and engine failure. He might have survived his outdated weather info if he was able to maintain hull integrity and propulsion.

 

[78puget-trawler]

While some things are unforeseen, ultimately the Captain is responsible for what happens to his vessel, good or bad. It appears there were errors in judgment made. If a meteor falls out of the sky and sinks a ship its fair to say the Captain cannot be blamed for that, but his decisions put his ship in harms way and the result was catastrophe.

 

[BandB]

Because that is what they are paid to do.

And fear of loss of job due to the situation he was already in. Still, I think he made a serious mistake. But I also hold the employer responsible for both the environment created and for allowing him to take that route at that time on that boat.

 

[BandB]

While some things are unforeseen, ultimately the Captain is responsible for what happens to his vessel, good or bad.

There is also a slightly different standard. It isn't whether he foresaw what happened. It is whether a reasonable captain in that situation should have foreseen it.

 

[BruceK]

Unemployed or dead. Easy choice. If it was that clear.

 

[Art]

Captains can make mistakes. Mistakes are a human occurrence-trait that at times pop up while traveling along the decades ride of life... no matter how smart, diligent or well trained a person may be. Making a mistake is very similar to having an accident. I.e. an item that the Captain [any person] really did not want to have become reality.


IMHO... May God Bless Captains - be they with or without mistake/accident.

 

[McGillicuddy]

Amen.

 

[Benthic2]

So....I'm explaining this thread to my 11 year old.... and he asks why a big ship doesn't have a light on the dashboard like our car does to say the trunk or a door is open.....

 

[Art]

So....I'm explaining this thread to my 11 year old.... and he asks why a big ship doesn't have a light on the dashboard like our car does to say the trunk or a door is open.....

Good question - kids are smart!

I'm imagine the crew new there had become a hatch problem before the sinking. Unfortunately, in those seas and the weight of hatch cover there is little that can be done at the moment. Secret is to have hatches ALL securely fastened from onset of voyage so they can not become sprung

 

[Ski in NC]

Hence the term: "batten the hatches". You want that done before the storm.

Does not help having cargo rolling around loose in the holds, either.

 

[BandB]

Hence the term: "batten the hatches". You want that done before the storm.

Does not help having cargo rolling around loose in the holds, either.

Storm preparation doesn't being when you're hours or days into the journey. It beings before you load the first cargo, before the first crew member boards, before the trip is even planned. It's every aspect of preparation. It's establishing a mental state oriented toward safety throughout the organization. That's why when something like this happens, those investigating have to go back through everything including long before the ship sailed. That's why also now there are thousands of questions to be answered, some of which never will be. It's not only trying to figure out everything that happened but why and not just every decision made but the circumstances and the environment that led to those decisions.

 

[hfoster]

Good question - kids are smart!

I'm imagine the crew new there had become a hatch problem before the sinking. Unfortunately, in those seas and the weight of hatch cover there is little that can be done at the moment. Secret is to have hatches ALL securely fastened from onset of voyage so they can not become sprung

Art me Irish Bro.

Having dogged hundreds of hatches in my day (On a Ore Boats) I can say that the hatch cover dogs (Even tightly dogged down) will become loose while under way. This is why during the voyage the deck crew will check the dogs.

There are many reasons why the dogs loosen however one of the main reasons, is do too the vessel pitching and rolling (Even in calm seas) the dogs on the hatch covers will loosen.

The one thing I do know for sure is. It comes down to how the vessel was built. A welded vessel or a riveted vessel!

Riveted vessel will bend and flex which helps keep the dogs tight but they do become loose.

A welded has no give and places more stress on the dogs and the vessel as well.

On the Arthur B. Homer (The Big Fitz sister and both welded vessels) I seen dogs snap in half in 5 foot waves, but I never seen a dog snap on any of the riveted ore boats I was on, nor have any of my ore boat buddies.

I do not know if the El Faro was a welded vessel or not however the odds are it could have been in today’s world.

If El Faro was a welded vessel and under the sea state it was in, I could see hatch cover dogs snapping right off.

I am 100% sure that the deck crew of the El faro dogged down all hatches, but while in that storm, a hatch cover came off and they were helpless to anything about it!

No one in their right mind would try to go out on deck in that kind of sea to dog down a hatch and I don’t blame them!

Cheers
H.