Overkill in boat selection for normal cruising

[Hippocampus]

Came to trawlers after a life of sail including full time international cruising and passages. Prior boat was built for me to my specs and was my eighth cruising boat. Due to wife’s balance after fracturing her ankle it was time to move to power. Initially wanted a Nordhavn. Thought nothing else would do. Thought then I’d be capable of continuing our prior program. Fortunately I have friends who captain for a living. To summarize they said
Blue water you’ve done that and been there. You haven’t coastal cruised your own country.
If you are going to be coastal (I think running on any continental shelf as near shore/coastal) you will drive yourself nuts in a FD hull. Having the ability to speed up is safety factor and allows you make new to you landfalls in the daylight or at slack tide.
Your focus on having an “A” boat isn’t reality based. In fact a “B” boat will serve and may even be safer.
Historically the big troubles I’ve gotten into have all been coastal (knockdowns, micro bursts, storms(strict definition) etc,). Still think coastal is more dangerous and requires more skills than blue water. So still think a strong, well maintained, well outfitted, good design is wise coastal or open ocean. So get the best boat you can afford and maintain and afford the cruising expenses. Expense isn’t just purchase price. I’d rather be on a 28’ Bristol Channel cutter of 30 years than a new A rated 50’ French production boat in weather or long passage. Same holds true for coastal cruising in power.
It took us a full year to get our brand new prior boat the way I wanted it. Think it will take 2-3 years for this one. I was told long ago fix important stuff right off. But use the boat a bunch before changing/replacing other stuff. Need that use experience to make good choices.
The NT wasn’t cheap but could have afforded the jump to a Nordhavn. So far think the NT is more than adequate and the N isn’t necessary for our current program. Wife is really enjoying not being limited to hull speed.

 

[mvweebles]

And back to Kevin and Doug, yes, this is a good thread to show what is possible. We are not getting any younger, so it’s important to go for it while we can.

It is a good thread for that, and I hope it motivates a few others to consider the boat they already have.

I know an owned of Uniflite 42 ACMY who spent a year going to Barra Navidad and back to San Francisco. He had planned to go with his wife, but she passed after a short illness. He had many friends join him for legs.

In Turtle Bay (Baja), I met a couple on a Hershine 37 single engine trunk cabin trawler. They were headed to the Caribbean.

I once met a guy who was relocating to Seattle from SoCal. He and his brother brought his Tiara 40-something foot open 1000 miles north.

A sistership you Doug's Willard 30 went from Chesapeake Bay to Bermuda and back, though that trip had very knowledgeable crew aboard. Another 1972 W30 with a novice owner relocated his boat from Ventura (SoCal) to Olympia WA. Took a couple months as he needed to leave the boat s couple times, but he made it

Sisterships to my Willard 36 have ventured all over the pacific. I can tell you candidly, these are strong designs but the scantlings are not built for green water.

Nordic Tugs and American Tugs have some amazing caravan style rallies, some up/down the pacific coast

Kevin mentions a Bertram 38 as a dock neighbor with plans to head south.

With exception of the Tugs, these are barely $100k boats, some closer to $50k than $100k.

Learn weather. Practice in the ocean to learn to correlate forecast conditions to actual conditions. Confidence will come quickly and the world will open

Peter

 

[GoneFarrell]

Learn weather. Practice in the ocean to learn to correlate forecast conditions to actual conditions. Confidence will come quickly and the world will open

Peter

Could not agree more! Learning how to correlate forecast to local made for safer better more comfortable travels. More important than the bigness of the boat.

Modern weather tools are amazing but not gospel.

Hope to cross paths (and not anchor rodes!) with folks in baja this winter

 

[bowball]

My strong hunch is you have read a lot of books on boating, trolled a bunch of forums, talk a lot about design, all sorts of hoo-haa, but in the end, just a poser who should punctuate more with question marks and less with exclamation marks.

Peter

Peter, I like your posts and your sharing of your expertise, but this comment is too personal for my taste and not up to your usual top standards!

 

[Shrew]

There is no wrong way to do it, as long as you're doing it....whatever 'it' is.

We used to sit anchored behind million dollars homes, around other anchored boats worth hundreds of thousands of dollars in a our little 28 foot express. We'd laugh while sipping the same cocktails, with the same view.

The difference is, now we have more creature comforts. Same houses, still have bigger and nicer boats around us, same cocktails, same view. Whatever boat you have, you'll always envy your neighbor. I try not to worry about how he's doing it. Besides, I don't want my neighbors bills

 

[garbler]

The OP says in the title to this interesting thread. “ Normal Cruising “. I find this concept quite revealing and warrants some thought. What is “ Normal Cruising “ really ? The prudent and experienced sailor rigs and prepares the best they can for contingencies. ‘Contingencies’ and ‘normal ‘ don’t even belong together. What could possibly be a normal contingency ?

Not to deviate too far but it reminds me of the word ‘ Seaworthy’ which is so broad and can mean so many things depending on a vessel’s use, sea and weather conditions and waters that it means almost nothing. As a former surveyor who worked for a couple of old time well respected offices the term was almost never used. In maritime courts if seaworthy is used it almost always sparks of lots of dissent and quibbling.

Rick

 

[Hippocampus]

The problem with cruising is you never have enough storage nor space. At that level bigger is better. But I’d rather have a smaller proper boat the a larger POS. Good boats have good fittings. Good fittings have a longer service life and are less likely to break. Have been on 100+ year old boats with original bronze fittings that work just fine. Same applies to wiring (especially connections), plumbing, woodwork, and even glasswork. To a large extent you get what you pay for. For all the bitching about ABYC and other rules (Lloyd’s, b veritas,etc.) they are of merit. A “proper boat “ will hold up and give good service. You can worry less about the boat and more about you and the crew. I had a production small center console then a Rothbuilt. Both 24’. The Rothbuilt was a solid sweet thing that gave me confidence the other a piece of crap. It’s not about size or coastal v offshore. It’s about quality of the build. So agree some folks go overboard. But still hold get the highest quality boat you can afford.

 

[rslifkin]

The problem with cruising is you never have enough storage nor space. At that level bigger is better. But I’d rather have a smaller proper boat the a larger POS. Good boats have good fittings. Good fittings have a longer service life and are less likely to break. Have been on 100+ year old boats with original bronze fittings that work just fine. Same applies to wiring (especially connections), plumbing, woodwork, and even glasswork. To a large extent you get what you pay for. For all the bitching about ABYC and other rules (Lloyd’s, b veritas,etc.) they are of merit. A “proper boat “ will hold up and give good service. You can worry less about the boat and more about you and the crew. I had a production small center console then a Rossbuilt. Both 24’. The Rossbuilt was a solid sweet thing that gave me confidence the other a piece of crap. It’s not about size or coastal v offshore. It’s about quality of the build. So agree some folks go overboard. But still hold get the highest quality boat you can afford.

To add to that, build quality doesn't directly correlate to being able to survive anything. Any design will have its limits due to a variety of factors. But a well built boat will be able to work close to those limits for a very long time without failures or major issues.

 

[mvweebles]

Peter, I like your posts and your sharing of your expertise, but this comment is too personal for my taste and not up to your usual top standards!

Bowball - thanks for calling me out. It was out of line.

Drako - please accept my apologies. I was unnecessarily cranky.

Peter

 

[mvweebles]

You are incorrect. This is my first and only account on this forum.

However this certainly isn't my first rodeo in the wild world of the 'net.

Yes, this is my belief, though I don't think of it as the only reasonable path. Since I have no authority or reputation here, this is not much of a guidance for others. An opinion which you surely will allow me to have?

And you, of course, are entitled to your own opinion.

Not to your own facts, though -- there's not a single exclamation point in my posts

Drako - another member called me out on this post, and I'm glad he did. I was out of line and owe you a deep and sincere apology. Not sure why I was cranky, but I was unnecessarily harsh.

I look forward to your future posts and contributions. Again, i am sorry -

Peter

 

[bowball]

Bowball - thanks for calling me out. It was out of line.

Drako - please accept my apologies. I was unnecessarily cranky.

Peter

Now THIS is the Peter I recognize! Classy and well done.

 

[Hippocampus]

We’re all human. All fallible. Some of us are gentlemen. Some not. You are a gentleman.

 

[ksanders]

The OP says in the title to this interesting thread. “ Normal Cruising “. I find this concept quite revealing and warrants some thought. What is “ Normal Cruising “ really ? The prudent and experienced sailor rigs and prepares the best they can for contingencies. ‘Contingencies’ and ‘normal ‘ don’t even belong together. What could possibly be a normal contingency ?

Not to deviate too far but it reminds me of the word ‘ Seaworthy’ which is so broad and can mean so many things depending on a vessel’s use, sea and weather conditions and waters that it means almost nothing. As a former surveyor who worked for a couple of old time well respected offices the term was almost never used. In maritime courts if seaworthy is used it almost always sparks of lots of dissent and quibbling.

Rick

OK, to clarify since I am the OP...

Normal cruising is what almost every boat really does... That is cruising up and down a coastline.

Regardless of their capability, very few power boats ever cross oceans

 

[garbler]

You may have missed my point or just ignoring but nevertheless let’s put things in perspective. Take the USCG for instance. When they require a Type II fire extinguisher or throwable floatation device it’s not because of “ normal “ navigation up and down the coast like everybody does, but for abnormal conditions. Same with the ABYC, SOLAS or any governing body. They know as do most people who work this world that the law of averages keeps most people out of trouble regardless of skill but it’s the 1% that get killed, kill somebody or suffer a serious casualty that laws and regulations are made for. So contingency planning more or less infers normal can’t be counted on. My contention is that it shouldn’t apply. Please understand sir this is not personal but a bit of advice to never think cruising coastally or offshore, which I never mentioned, should ever preclude safety which includes serious consideration of vessel construction and design even over interior comfort.

Rick

 

[Drako]

Drako - another member called me out on this post, and I'm glad he did. I was out of line and owe you a deep and sincere apology. Not sure why I was cranky, but I was unnecessarily harsh.

I look forward to your future posts and contributions. Again, i am sorry -

Peter

Thank you. Not a problem, everyone gets cranky once in a while and I have thick skin

 

[ksanders]

You may have missed my point or just ignoring but nevertheless let’s put things in perspective. Take the USCG for instance. When they require a Type II fire extinguisher or throwable floatation device it’s not because of “ normal “ navigation up and down the coast like everybody does, but for abnormal conditions. Same with the ABYC, SOLAS or any governing body. They know as do most people who work this world that the law of averages keeps most people out of trouble regardless of skill but it’s the 1% that get killed, kill somebody or suffer a serious casualty that laws and regulations are made for. So contingency planning more or less infers normal can’t be counted on. My contention is that it shouldn’t apply. Please understand sir this is not personal but a bit of advice to never think cruising coastally or offshore, which I never mentioned, should ever preclude safety which includes serious consideration of vessel construction and design even over interior comfort.

Rick

Are you inferring my friend that my Bayliner 4788 is not suitable for cruising down the coastline?

Or for that matter that my friend Dougs Willard 30?

 

[mvweebles]

You may have missed my point or just ignoring but nevertheless let’s put things in perspective. Take the USCG for instance. When they require a Type II fire extinguisher or throwable floatation device it’s not because of “ normal “ navigation up and down the coast like everybody does, but for abnormal conditions. Same with the ABYC, SOLAS or any governing body. They know as do most people who work this world that the law of averages keeps most people out of trouble regardless of skill but it’s the 1% that get killed, kill somebody or suffer a serious casualty that laws and regulations are made for. So contingency planning more or less infers normal can’t be counted on. My contention is that it shouldn’t apply. Please understand sir this is not personal but a bit of advice to never think cruising coastally or offshore, which I never mentioned, should ever preclude safety which includes serious consideration of vessel construction and design even over interior comfort.

Rick

While I see your point that 'normal' is undefined, I think the context in which it was offered was fairly clear. But I do think there is an interesting topic embedded in your post:

"Contingency planning more or less infers normal can’t be counted on.". I disagree in spirit - you can narrow the possible circumstances so that normal - the expected events - can be accurately anticipated on so you can ignore the Black Swan events and safely make a coastal voyage in a modest boat becomes.

How do you do that?

1. Weather. Learn some basics about forecasting weather and how they translate into sea conditions. Interestingly, most people are overly conservative here - they are loath to leave so end up waiting too long.
2. Coastal hops with bail-out options. If you buy that weather is very accurate in a 24-hour window, fairly accurate in a 3-day window, you can plan accordingly. Sure there are localized micro-events that are unforecast, and they can be quite severe, but rarely will they skip multiple steps in the Beaufort scale simply because they are short duration - winds may get to 40+ knots, but without ample time and fetch, the seas simply won't build to dangerous peaks.
3. Play the seasons. The US Pilot Charts remain an excellent resource for understanding the calmest season to transit a body of water. Late Sept and early October are the premier times for this stretch of coast.
4. Understand the prevailing weather. Along this coastline, >95% of the weather comes from the NW. Heading south is a lot easier than north. When entering channels or crossing bars (inlets to you Easterners), knowing the tides and currents.
5. Vessel prep. I won't go into this because there are 1000s of threads. But I will add that everything needs to be secured - inflatable RIBS should have positive fasteners attached to the hull (vs straps over the tubes that loosen when the tubes get cold). Anchor needs to be seriously lashed. And the windows/ports need to be water tight from spray (more when heading north than south).

If you can do those things (and I'd wager good money that both Kevin and Doug did), you and your boat are ready for coastal cruising - you have mitigated 99.99% of your risk. Fortunately, these are not difficult skills to learn. But for folks who watch Deadliest Catch, they see the risk much differently. I see it akin to a meteorite strike. If someone wants meteorite insurance, there are several boat builders like Nordhavn who will build them a helluva boat......for a price that for some (like me and apparetly Kevin) would greatly delay or cancel the trip. If you like that sort of thing and can afford it, fantastic. They are really comfortable boats, well thought out, and have a strong resale so TCO isn't bad. Some close the risk-gap with stout boat, some with knowledge and seamanship skills (perhaps hubris), many do both. Kevin's only point is that if you fall into the camp of the Average Joe, you can do this with a perfectly modest boat. I agree, have for years.

In the end, it's not really about the boat. The boat is a magic carpet. When you're old and confined to a wheelchair with a pee-bag hanging off the rail and drool dribbling down your chin, you will remember the people you met, the places you saw. The boat? Probably not.

Peter

 

[Bob Cofer]

Another 1972 W30 with a novice owner relocated his boat from Ventura (SoCal) to Olympia WA. Took a couple months as he needed to leave the boat s couple times, but he made it

I have met Bob and we had a couple of nice chats about his adventure. If you know both your and your boat's limitations and your not in a hurry then anything is possible.

Be smart and be safe.

 

[mvweebles]

Another 1972 W30 with a novice owner relocated his boat from Ventura (SoCal) to Olympia WA. Took a couple months as he needed to leave the boat s couple times, but he made it

I have met Bob and we had a couple of nice chats about his adventure. If you know both your and your boat's limitations and your not in a hurry then anything is possible.

Be smart and be safe.

BTW- that was Hull #5, my old boat. I owned her from 1994-1998 or so. I lived aboard her at Treasure Island San Francisco and commuted into the city. I met my wife about the same time and we fell in love on her. Not sure we would have sealed the deal had it not been for that boat

Peter

 

[OldDan1943]

There are many smaller boats with skilled skippers that are capable but at what comfort level.
There are many larger, comfortable boats with semi-experienced skippers that are more than capable only because they are more attentive, especially depth and conditions around them.
Bigger boats generally draw more water.

 

[garbler]

No sense in debating or quibbling over your post Peter. You’ve pretty much regurgitated the standard text on the subject from Chapman to several other compendiums. Your last paragraph is quite melodramatic and perhaps it hits a tone here but I can’t find anyplace where it fits. It is however all very good information for sure but I guess I’m stuck on another plane. Good or bad I’ve spent too many years investigating accidents, repairing damaged vessels and working casualty claims to be able to ignore that 1% I mentioned above. Perhaps it’s just a occupational mindset of surveying for nearly forty years but it can’t be ignored by waving a hand and saying ‘ don’t worry everything will be okay’. You and others may think along that “magic carpet “ train of thought but I can’t. So I’m thinking perhaps I’m in the wrong arena here and that no matter what my experience and observations are, they may be just too damned negative and disturbing for this happy go lucky crowd. I recall after one of my first posts here a member contacted me back channel and advised me that this group was not really into seriously technical chatter and tonight I think he was right.

Years ago I worked on and off with Marine Surveyor Capt. Harold Huycke from Edmunds, WA.. We worked together along with Jack Ehrhorn of Alameda on the USN minesweeper fleet. Harold was a man of vast experience and the last chronicler of the Seattle waterfront and renown historian and writer. We talked about fish boat surveys and he continually harped on hatch gaskets, dogs and windshield reinforcements until I was dizzy. Then he played a recording from a radio transmission to the Seattle marine operator from a fishing vessel in the Bering Sea trying to make Dutch Harbor but was badly icing up and rolling slower and slower. It was the crew telling their Wife and kids goodby. It ripped your heart out but the point was that nothing is for sure when you cast off. They were lost.

Anyway I think I had a good time

Rick

 

[mvweebles]

No sense in debating or quibbling over your post Peter. You’ve pretty much regurgitated the standard text on the subject from Chapman to several other compendiums. Your last paragraph is quite melodramatic and perhaps it hits a tone here but I can’t find anyplace where it fits. It is however all very good information for sure but I guess I’m stuck on another plane. Good or bad I’ve spent too many years investigating accidents, repairing damaged vessels and working casualty claims to be able to ignore that 1% I mentioned above. Perhaps it’s just a occupational mindset of surveying for nearly forty years but it can’t be ignored by waving a hand and saying ‘ don’t worry everything will be okay’. You and others may think along that “magic carpet “ train of thought but I can’t. So I’m thinking perhaps I’m in the wrong arena here and that no matter what my experience and observations are, they may be just too damned negative and disturbing for this happy go lucky crowd. I recall after one of my first posts here a member contacted me back channel and advised me that this group was not really into seriously technical chatter and tonight I think he was right.



Years ago I worked on and off with Marine Surveyor Capt. Harold Huycke from Edmunds, WA.. We worked together along with Jack Ehrhorn of Alameda on the USN minesweeper fleet. Harold was a man of vast experience and the last chronicler of the Seattle waterfront and renown historian and writer. We talked about fish boat surveys and he continually harped on hatch gaskets, dogs and windshield reinforcements until I was dizzy. Then he played a recording from a radio transmission to the Seattle marine operator from a fishing vessel in the Bering Sea trying to make Dutch Harbor but was badly icing up and rolling slower and slower. It was the crew telling their Wife and kids goodby. It ripped your heart out but the point was that nothing is for sure when you cast off. They were lost.



Anyway I think I had a good time



Rick

I agree that there may be zero boats in the TF fleet capable of Bering Sea during winter storm season. And few helmsman with the experience (as a captain), and confident there are zero people on this forum who would like to give it a go.

I can tell you are saying this in earnest so I know it's a deeply held belief, but I am curious, is the premise that unless a boat can withstand the Bering Sea in wintertime, it has no place coastal cruising from Seattle to Panama? I have many friends who no longer ride motorcycles because they lost confidence in their safety. Sounds like that's where you are with all but the most robust of boats. There's nothing wrong with that, we all make decisions based on experience. I'm genuinely curious what the premise is, and how far to take it.

As background, I spent about 5 years as a fulltime delivery skipper. Towards the end, I spent about 220 days per year moving boats between Seattle and Cabo, with an odd trip through The Canal. All but a handful of trips were northbound. While I delivered a lot of Nordhavns, I delivered a lot of other boats too, including a Californian 30 (Monterey to SF) and a Sunseeker Manhattan 55 (Seattle to Redwood City). My guidance comes 100% from that experience. If it's Chapman's guidance too, I consider that a compliment.

Peter
PS - speaking of the Bering Sea and recreational boats, Ken Williams, owner of a Nordhavn 62 at the time, cooked up an idea to go from Seattle to Tokyo - they called it the Great Siberian Sushi Run. He and a few other boats made the run including a stop in Dutch Harbor. Good example of timing the seasons, watching the westher, and preparing the boat. There's a book on Amazon I believe. He's a good writer.

 

[ksanders]

I love reading this thread, and the opinions of the few that still argue against Coastal Cruising in a non expedition style yacht.

Posting tonight from Ensenada Baha California.

 

[SteveK]

Kevin I am sure you understand that your boat is capable, you are capable. But many would not survive the trip using your boat, under the same trip conditions, the boat would sink and the beliefs would be proven. The boat could not make it, it was the boat's fault.

I have had the experience of being aboard when the others on board would not have made it to shore again. They were afraid the boat could not make it.

All boats can handle more than we can.

 

[tiltrider1]

For years I had a helicopter operation in Hawaii. I was absolutely amazed by the constant arrival of what I consider substandard boats from mainland USA. It’s a lot less about the boat and a lot more about the skipper or it’s all about luck.

 

[Hippocampus]

Peter all I can say in response is all my truly troubling experiences where I was worried about ever seeing dirt again were coastal not on ocean passage. That includes being called overdue.
End of day I don’t care about gribs, NOAA or weather routers. Been around long enough all prediction sources have lead me wrong more than once. Care only about conditions right where I am. Maybe I have a dark cloud over my head but have experienced microbursts and rogues that no weather service can be expected to predict. That has occurred all in coastal settings except once mid ocean. Mid ocean it’s great to have a good skilled weather router (been happy with Chris Parker and Commanders) but you also have the benefit of your eyes (and radar) so you can see weather pretty far off with just a small bit of knowledge. You don’t have that benefit all to often coastal. Most places in the world local weather comes over the land mass then hits the coast except for cyclonal events. Mid ocean even if it means going the “wrong” way mid ocean it’s never a problem to divert for weather. Been in situations coastally there’s no good option to find a safe harbor in time.
So if you’re always in protected waters (AICW, populated bays, short jumps between established harbors, rivers etc.) you could do your trips in a dinghy. But to say a cruiser won’t ever experience weather and hence doesn’t need a proper vessel beneath his feet is too big a jump for me.


BTW this doesn’t mean the latest and greatest big buck trawler. Be fine on a home built wooden DD or a 30-40 year old solid well maintained trawler. Doesn’t mean a balls to wall bulletproof BWB. Coastal has different demands. I get that. But some degree of belt an suspenders and seaworthiness is still justified.

 

[Gdavid]

Normal cruising is what almost every boat really does... That is cruising up and down a coastline.

One could argue that most boats sit at the dock unused the vast majority of the time. Congrats for casting off and exploring.

 

[bowball]

My father was “coastal” when he got hit, capsized and demasted by a whale. At least the coast guard that rescued and towed him thought it was a whale. A submarine impact they felt would have cracked the hull. Odd accidents do happen.

 

[mvweebles]

Peter all I can say in response is all my truly troubling experiences where I was worried about ever seeing dirt again were coastal not on ocean passage. That includes being called overdue.
End of day I don’t care about gribs, NOAA or weather routers. Been around long enough all prediction sources have lead me wrong more than once. Can only about conditions right where I am. Maybe I have a dark cloud over my head but have experienced microbursts and rogues that no weather service can be expected to predict. That has occurred all in coastal settings except once mid ocean. Mid ocean it’s great to have a good skilled weather router (been happy with Chris Parker and Commanders) but you also have the benefit of your eyes (and radar) so you can see weather pretty far off with just a small bit of knowledge. You don’t have that benefit all to often coastal. Most places in the world local weather comes over the land mass then hits the coast except for cyclonal events. Mid ocean even if it means going the “wrong” way mid ocean it’s never a problem to divert for weather. Been in situations coastally there’s no good option to find a safe harbor in time.
So if you’re always in protected waters (AICW, populated bays, short jumps between established harbors, rivers etc.) you could do your trips in a dinghy. But to say a cruiser won’t ever experience weather and hence doesn’t need a proper vessel beneath his feet is too big a jump for me.


BTW this doesn’t mean the latest and greatest big buck trawler. Be fine on a home built wooden DD or a 30-40 year old solid well maintained trawler. Doesn’t mean a balls to wall bulletproof BWB. Coastal has different demands. I get that. But some degree of belt an suspenders and seaworthiness is still justified.

Hippocampus - Always a good "point/counterpoint" discussion.

If I painted a picture of coastal cruising being nothing but breathtaking sunsets, cool ocean breezes, and gentle rocking at anchor, let me describe a bit further - i think much of what you describe is normal and needs to be included in cruising calculus. Difficult weather is to be expected. Question is to what degree? I think the bar is pretty attainable.

I too have seen surprisingly strong localized conditions, sometimes well in excess of 50-kts. I've been in short duration runs of steep and deep confused seas that really toss a boat. Any boat that heads outside needs to be prepared for this. For example, topic of built-in furniture vs loose-placed residential furniture o occasionally comes up which is a head scratcher to me. Cabinets need positive latches, padding between plates, fridges need some protection from being jack-in-the-box milk launchers, tchotchke baubles like desk lamps, photos, candles need to be firmly secured (or better, left ashore), etc. I cannot imagine using a boat where conditions requiring these preparations are never encountered.

But here's what is not going to happen. Forecast conditions equivalent to Force 4 are not going to somehow jump unexpectedly to Force 8 (FYI for those not familiar, - Beaufort Scale: https://www.weather.gov/pqr/beaufort). The winds may hit 60-kts, but there is neither time nor fetch to create 6-meter seas. There simply isn't enough stored or developed energy to create huge changes in sea state.

Best I can tell, like everyone I know who cruises costally (myself included these days), Doug and Kevin made go/no-go decisions seeking no more than Force 4 conditions (15-kts, 3'-5' seas). I would expect at least a bit of higher conditions, but always on their stern. Would be different going north.

Hippocampus, my guess is we agree on most of the substance here. Kevin's 47-foot Bayliner, Doug's 30-foot Willard, and countless other boats mentioned in threads like this such as my Willard 36, Hershine 37 and Uniflite 42 may not be the most comfortable boat for unexpected weather, but they can be prepped to be a safe platform with prudent usage.

A tip of the cap to you Hippocampus - your excellent contributions to TF have introduced conversations on CE Design classifications, and the various indicators that differentiate Class A vs Class B, primarily risk of down flooding and self-righting stability measurements. I just have a hard time imagining a set of circumstances where a prepared and reasonably experienced cruiser leaves expecting Force 3-4 but encounters sustained Force 8+ seas (50-kt winds, sure. But 6-meter seas?) . Now, forecasts change, but one of the hallmarks of coastal cruising is ability to bail-out within 24-hr intervals.

So I'll double-down on the premise of OPs (Kevin's) premise). I'm good with using a Bayliner 47 for distance coastal cruising. My concerns would be range and whether the windows are watertight for spray. BTW - if you haven't looked closely, the Bayliner 45/47 pilothouse boats are quite wide and low- a lot of form stability. Some pounding in headseas, but tough to get too far over.

Peter

EDIT - I think it was Rslifkin upthread who noted sailboats with their rigging are more likely to be laid flat. I have definitely been surprised by strong winds that came from nowhere in minutes. Not a big deal in a powerboat. Can be a very big deal on a sailboat. Morganschild recently reported on an accident where a 65-foot sailboat was quickly overcome by very strong winds. They were unable to reduce sail without heading into the wind (a limitation of in-boom/mast furling systems I guess). When the sail flogged, the mainsheet tackle struck one crew hard. Her husband came forward to assist and he too was struck by the boom. Both later died after being airlifted out.

While not nearly as severe, I had a similar event happen when delivering a 45-foot sailboat from Ventura to SF Bay. Was a calm night, rounding points Conception/Arguello, an area well known for locally strong weather. We got laid pretty flat (slight exaggeration) but scared the hell out of me. Was the last sailboat I delivered.

 

[rslifkin]

One of the big things is to make sure you're always running in conditions far enough below the boat's limits. That way you've got plenty of safety margin for when conditions suddenly become worse than expected. Powerboats don't have the issue of a wind-induced knockdown, which helps a lot.



Securing furniture is a good point. I'd love to see a discussion on how to secure moveable pieces of furniture while they're not in use.