Open Flame on Dock

[BandB]

Home grill fires, since I have no data on marina grills: (from NFPA)

In 2009-2013, U.S. fire departments responded to an average of 8,900 home fires involving grills, hibachis, or barbecues per year. This includes structure fires and outside or unclassified fires on home properties.

These 8,900 fires caused annual averages of 10 civilian deaths, 160 reported civilian injuries, and $118 million in direct property damage. Almost all the losses resulted from structure fires.

Five out of six (83%) grills involved in home fires were fueled by gas while 13% used charcoal or other solid fuel.

The leading causes of grill fires were a failure to clean, having the grill too close to something that could catch fire and leaving the grill unattended.
A leak or break was the leading cause for outside or unclassified grill fires. Leaks or breaks were primarily a problem with gas grills.​

Now, kitchen fires are a major problem indoors:

Based on 2010-2014 annual averages:

Cooking equipment was the leading cause of home fires and fire injuries, causing 46% of home fires that resulted in 19% of the home fire deaths and 44% of the injuries.

Two-thirds (66%) of home cooking fires started with the ignition of food or other cooking materials.

Clothing was the item first ignited in less than 1% of these fires, but clothing ignitions led to 18% of the home cooking equipment fire deaths.

Ranges or cooktops accounted for the majority (62%) of home cooking fire incidents.

Unattended equipment was a factor in one-third (33%) of reported home cooking fires and half (49%) of the associated deaths..

Frying dominates the cooking fire problem.

Thanksgiving is the peak day for home cooking fires.​

So, my opinion. I do not want anyone grilling on a dock beside my boat or on any dock made of wood or with wood overhead.

I do not want grilling with an open flame on a boat in any covered dock.

I personally am no more concerned about grilling on a boat sitting at an open dock, than I am about them cooking in the galley. If anything, less concerned, as it's more visible.

Most rules prohibit open flames within x feet, typically 10-25' of apartment buildings and other structures. That makes sense as I do know of apartment buildings destroyed over open flame grilling on covered patios and balconies. It's actually the most exposed area as most apartments today are sprinklered but balconies are not. I saw a complex that had a building destroyed by one cigar left on the balcony.

All marinas are a little different so they have to make different decisions with the involvement of the local fire department. While the odds of a marina fire may be minimal, most of them do spread quickly and cause major damage to many boats and the marina.

 

[Benthic2]

If the concern is grills near refueling......prohibit refueling on the docks.

I understand the marina is trying to limit liability...but the probability of an accident is so remote they'd be better off not allowing alcohol consumption, requiring everyone to wear a PFD on the docks, and banning smoking.

There has to be a balance between protection from harm and the pursuit of happiness, and it just seems to me that this goes too far. If you want total protection, put on a helmet, wrap yourself in bubble wrap and stay in bed.

"..those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temorary safety, deserve neither liberty, nor safety.." -Ben Franklin

 

[BandB]

If the concern is grills near refueling......prohibit refueling on the docks.

That's only one concern, but other concerns include structures, wooden docks, flammable coverings on boat decks, gas on dinghies. Then the other issue is how rapidly fiberglass can spread a fire. Not like a brick wall. Fighting a marina fire is far more difficult and complex than most land fires.

 

[hollywood8118]

That's only one concern, but other concerns include structures, wooden docks, flammable coverings on boat decks, gas on dinghies. Then the other issue is how rapidly fiberglass can spread a fire. Not like a brick wall. Fighting a marina fire is far more difficult and complex than most land fires.

ok, but again we watch marinas go up every year because of space heaters on boats .. so why not ban the things that ACTUALLY cause marina fires first?
posting info on house grill fires is as relevant as a correlation between hang glider fatalities and commercial aviation ones.
HOLLYWOOD

 

[BandB]

ok, but again we watch marinas go up every year because of space heaters on boats .. so why not ban the things that ACTUALLY cause marina fires first?
posting info on house grill fires is as relevant as a correlation between hang glider fatalities and commercial aviation ones.
HOLLYWOOD

No doubt space heaters are an issue on boats as they are in homes. Actually, I think house grill fires and boat grill fires have a lot in common with the main difference being the boat fire will spread and get out of control quicker.

And, yes, I am aware of a marina fire started by grilling on a boat. Houseboat on one of the Cumberland River lakes a few years ago.

 

[Shrew]

We should keep in mind there is difference between:

1) Peoples opinions
2) Peoples actions
3) Marina Policies

Whether it is ones opinion that there should not be an issue with propane grills does not change a policy. People can choose not to verify policy or grill despite of policy, this also doesn't mean there isn't a policy prohibiting it. Just because policies aren't enforced also doesn't mean the policy doesn't exist.

 

[dhays]

ok, but again we watch marinas go up every year because of space heaters on boats .. so why not ban the things that ACTUALLY cause marina fires first?
posting info on house grill fires is as relevant as a correlation between hang glider fatalities and commercial aviation ones.
HOLLYWOOD

Our marina doesn't allow grills on the boat to be used while in a slip. It ALSO bans the use of electric space heaters that depend on a fan to keep the heating elements cool. So this,
https://newcontent.westmarine.com/content/images/catalog/large/16725780_LRG.jpg
https://newcontent.westmarine.com/content/images/catalog/large/7867500.jpg

are not allowed.

However these are all OK
http://www.defender.com/images/754124.jpg
http://www.defender.com/images/900025.jpg
http://ep.yimg.com/ay/yhst-14628535264555/goldenrod-18-electric-dehumidifier-rod-12.jpg

 

[Ex Sailor]

Greetings,
Could mean IF you have a propane refrigerator you couldn't leave the boat...

You're good RTF .. :lol: FB

 

[catalinajack]

So, to those whose opinion is that gas grills are dangerous and it's good policy to prohibit their use, please then explain why indoor propane stovetops ought not be banned also. At least the barbie is out in the open.

 

[psneeld]

So, to those whose opinion is that gas grills are dangerous and it's good policy to prohibit their use, please then explain why indoor propane stovetops ought not be banned also. At least the barbie is out in the open.

 

[Shrew]

So, to those whose opinion is that gas grills are dangerous and it's good policy to prohibit their use, please then explain why indoor propane stovetops ought not be banned also. At least the barbie is out in the open.

My take on this is its a carry-over from the days of charcoal. In all honesty, I don't think the propane grill itself is a direct issue. It is things like:

1) Space taken up on the main dock

2) Passers by potentially burning themselves

3) Out of control grease fires (which are more rare on a propane stove. Plus the stove is better designed to handle flare-ups).

4) 'table-top' models sitting inches from the dock which can potentially generate enough radiant heat to discolor the dock.

5) Insurance company policies and rates

6) someone kicks over a grill creating a grease fire (again something not prone to a propane stove or mounted grill onboard.

7) The person who decides to push policy. (e.g. everyone is using gas grills, so someone decides he has to have charcoal or wood fired "What's the big deal, I've been doing this for years and never had an issue").

Policies often go above and beyond to err on the side of caution.

 

[psneeld]

A properly mounted marine propane grill, that could be checked by the marina has few of those issues.

My insurance company doesn't prohibit it and would be the payer if my grill started the fire.

More inside marine stoves have probably caused more fires than grill based on my experience.

 

[BandB]

So, to those whose opinion is that gas grills are dangerous and it's good policy to prohibit their use, please then explain why indoor propane stovetops ought not be banned also. At least the barbie is out in the open.

Well, if you insist, I'm fine with that too.

Now, a more serious answer. Not the same level of flame and not the same likelihood of flare ups that a grill has. With grills, it's not the gas being banned, it's the open flame.

As to the barbie being out in the open, if it was really out in the open and away from all potential flammable materials and boats and docks and canvas, then it wouldn't be a problem, but it's not.

Each marina situation is different. I've seen behaviors that were extremely dangerous in my opinion and others that didn't bother me at all.

 

[psneeld]

Dangerous situations should be regulated....and I don't believe it to be that hard.

Prohibitions are inherently unfair and used to make management or enforcement easier.

Thus the dilemma.

Again, if it were that big of a risk, I doubt most yacht policies would allow them or new boat builders to even consider building them in.

Marinas are too lazy to enforce dangerous behaviors or smart enough to provide grills with safe places to use them.

 

[dhays]

5) Insurance company policies and rates



/QUOTE]


I think this is likely the root cause. If an insurance company tells a marina that they can't have any open flames in the marina they are insuring, the marina operator has little choice.

The other consideration is that some marinas may have received tenant complaints from boaters that are downwind of frequent grilles. It really isn't that pleasant to have your salon filled up with the smoke from someone else's grill.

There are all kinds of rules that are designed to smooth the way when lots of folks occupy a limited space rather than just safety.

 

[Northern Spy]

My take on it, is that it is easier to "ban" or "prohibit", than it is to "manage".

Just hang up a sign, saying you can't do something, and Bingo! Instant due diligence and transferred accountability.

Problem solved. Back to watching cat videos on YouTube.

The fantastic flip side is, if the sign doesn't exist, and a boater, burns the marina down, he's not accountable either, because no one told him not too.

 

[psneeld]

My take on it, is that it is easier to "ban" or "prohibit", than it is to "manage".

Just hang up a sign, saying you can't do something, and Bingo! Instant due diligence and transferred accountability.

Problem solved. Back to watching cat videos on YouTube.

The fantastic flip side is, if the sign doesn't exist, and a boater, burns the marina down, he's not accountable either, because no one told him not too.

Oh....spoil sport.... ?

Avoidance of leadership in the USA has become a national pastime.

 

[MYTraveler]

Dangerous situations should be regulated....and I don't believe it to be that hard.

Prohibitions are inherently unfair and used to make management or enforcement easier.

Thus the dilemma.

I preferred your earlier comment -- your insurance company takes the risk so they set the rules.

 

[sunchaser]

Not uncommon are the crab cookers with very large burners, and yes sitting on the docks firing away. Open flame restriction applies I'd guess but I sure like the cooked crab.

 

[dhays]

Not uncommon are the crab cookers with very large burners, and yes sitting on the docks firing away. Open flame restriction applies I'd guess but I sure like the cooked crab.

So true! No crab cookers on the dock at my home dock, but our yacht club owned outstations don't have that restriction. When looking for a place to tie up, I always try to spot the boat with the crab cooker out and tie up next to them. I'm way to lazy to go crabbing myself, but not to lazy to eat crab that someone else has caught and cooked.

 

[psneeld]

I preferred your earlier comment -- your insurance company takes the risk so they set the rules.

Yep...but the guy who is beyond safe or reasonable can still be singled out.

At my home marina, the old regime never ruffled anyone's feathers but had a rule about houseboats...not allowed....no reason, just no h ouseboats even if they were beautiful and in working order.

The new owner has no issue with throwing people out for bad behavior, as in pull in your lines, get out.

That's why I have worked for him for the better part of 15 years, a man with leadership I can respect. He is a great guy, but not afraid to make good decisions without cry baby rules that punish everyone.

 

[catalinajack]

Well, if you insist, I'm fine with that too.

Now, a more serious answer. Not the same level of flame and not the same likelihood of flare ups that a grill has. With grills, it's not the gas being banned, it's the open flame.

As to the barbie being out in the open, if it was really out in the open and away from all potential flammable materials and boats and docks and canvas, then it wouldn't be a problem, but it's not.

Each marina situation is different. I've seen behaviors that were extremely dangerous in my opinion and others that didn't bother me at all.

So, a galley propane cooktop does not have an open flame? I've never seen a gas grill with an open flame in the nature of a galley cooktop. My point is that if gas grills are to be prohibited then gas cooktops should be as well cuz they are even more dangerous. Of course, I doubt any marina would ban from their docks boats with propane galleys. Perspective. Common sense. IMHO.

 

[BandB]

So, a galley propane cooktop does not have an open flame? I've never seen a gas grill with an open flame in the nature of a galley cooktop. My point is that if gas grills are to be prohibited then gas cooktops should be as well cuz they are even more dangerous. Of course, I doubt any marina would ban from their docks boats with propane galleys. Perspective. Common sense. IMHO.

I've observed far more flare ups on gas grills than ever on gas stoves in galleys. Of course, I don't make the rules for any city or marina so their rules are what they are and I follow them and I expect other boaters to do the same.

 

[catalinajack]

I've observed far more flare ups on gas grills than ever on gas stoves in galleys. Of course, I don't make the rules for any city or marina so their rules are what they are and I follow them and I expect other boaters to do the same.

I do not doubt that you have but your anecdotal evidence has little probative value. Are you okay with electric grills on a boat deck? If so, how would flare-ups using one be any less dangerous than a propane grill? Boating is dangerous too. One's boat might sink and one might drown. Fear of the unlikely causes some folks to never leave their home.

 

[BandB]

I do not doubt that you have but your anecdotal evidence has little probative value. Are you okay with electric grills on a boat deck? If so, how would flare-ups using one be any less dangerous than a propane grill? Boating is dangerous too. One's boat might sink and one might drown. Fear of the unlikely causes some folks to never leave their home.

Don't have flare ups on the type electric grill we use. Much of life's evidence is based on anecdotal evidence. The medical industry is filled with treatments that were derived from anecdotal evidence. That doesn't make my observations carry more or less value than anyone else's.

Many risks we protect against are unlikely. We, or those making those decisions, base decisions on their perceived likelihood and risk tolerance. We all make decisions every day based on our view of the benefits vs. the risks. Some marinas have determined that they are not willing to accept the risk of any grill used on the dock and/or of gas grills being used on boats. Some have probably been led to that decision by insurers and other by local ordinances. Some perhaps by experiences. One thing that happens to is many marinas are now part of large groups, either ownership or operation, and a problem in one marina leads to rules in all.

If the marina doesn't want to take that risk, then it's their choice. As a boat owner in a slip, I don't have to deal with all the related issues or factors that they do.

Sometimes things come from distant places too. For instance the marina that was pointed out earlier and wanted no houseboats. Well, probably based on the marinas along the Cumberland River lakes with all the fires, starting in houseboats. I'm sure those houseboats were nothing like the one you'd see in other places. Over the last ten years, those marinas have changed many rules. Some no longer allow houseboats in covered slips.

Ultimately, marinas are in the business of managing their risks, not ours. Now the two do often tie together.

Personally, I generally have no problem with someone on an adjacent boat using a grill. It's well within my risk tolerance most of the time. There have been times it bothered me due to either the people doing it or the location on their boat. I do have an issue with it being done on the dock or a finger. Simply, I think they should be free of anything. Plus if it's a shared finger, then someone else's space has been invaded too.

 

[markpierce]

Don't cement docks solve half the problem?

 

[BruceK]

I suspect that marina bans on barbecuing in the open has as much to do with drifting smoke and cooking odors as anything else.

 

[seasalt007]

I miss Marin.

 

[Spike]

Not to nit pick here but thought I'd add a view from a retired firefighter. A grill (gas or otherwise) is not an "open flame", if it has a lid. Any flair up can be controlled by closing the lid and shutting off the fuel. Now, a crab cooker is an open flame for sure.

I assume most marinas that have these rules say "no grilling" in addition to no open flames or you'd have a pretty good argument.

 

[kev_rm]

I am slightly paranoid about propane safety, have a gas grill, don't care about the my marina mates so much but for my boat's sake the tank lives on swimstep.

I met some cruisers from Alaska in the bahamas in march and they had a small portable Traeger which gave me serious grill envy so I'm thinking about going that route.