New battery technology ?

[DDW]

I am in a similar situation. Currently, 3 x 8D AGM fullrivers, each @260AH. So 780ah total. Only 4 years old.

You have a problem with charging there I'd say. I have Lifeline batteries in the sailboat that were purchased in 2006. They are needing replacement now. The Lifeline batteries in the trawler are from 2011. Still OK, but I intend to replace them this year.

The charger needs to be set up correctly and be temperature compensated and remotely sensed. The Magnum you have will do this if properly installed. Operationally you need to fully charge the batteries (6 hours uninterrupted charge) every week or so. The voltage drop from 160A draw should be no where near enough to cause 12V devices any problem, either batteries have been killed or wiring is inadequate. 300 - 400 A thruster draw from that bank will sag the voltage a little, but only momentarily, sounds like the cable runs are long and small.

Without understanding how the Full River batteries were murdered, it would be best to replace with the cheapest possible FLAs since they will accept more abuse and be cheaper to replace when they are murdered.

One issue with the less expansive LFP batteries is the BMS will only handle relatively low currents, usually <= 1C. That makes thruster draw the critical spec.

 

[Hippocampus]

Folks usage is different. In the average year I ‘ve been in a slip <10% of the time. Being off shore power and nearly daily use changes the calculus. Find you end up using more amps when at rest but on the boat. More in HVAC draw. More water usage so more watermaker. More entertainment electronics especially TV and sound system. More opening/closing the frig/freezer. We charted this and thought between AP and nav use draw would be greater under power but found out that’s not true. Had a Phillipi so could see draw not just numbers for the batteries.
So between alternator output moving or being in a slip battery cycling isn’t really an issue. Pb is more than adequate. It’s sitting at anchor while on the boat that is the issue. Solar will only cover it on occasion for most people. So rate of acceptance and draw is probably as important as how far you can draw them down. That will determine how often and how long you run the genset. Wife doesn’t like AC. Given past use profile the fireflys are of interest to us. Your mileage may vary. Had a past experience with spilled acid. Scares me so not keen on FLA. for many carbon doesn’t make any sense. Gensets sip fuel and are minimally intrusive making carbon an unnecessary expense. For others they do.

 

[O C Diver]

Folks usage is different. In the average year I ‘ve been in a slip <10% of the time. Being off shore power and nearly daily use changes the calculus. Find you end up using more amps when at rest but on the boat. More in HVAC draw. More water usage so more watermaker. More entertainment electronics especially TV and sound system. More opening/closing the frig/freezer. We charted this and thought between AP and nav use draw would be greater under power but found out that’s not true. Had a Phillipi so could see draw not just numbers for the batteries.
So between alternator output moving or being in a slip battery cycling isn’t really an issue. Pb is more than adequate. It’s sitting at anchor while on the boat that is the issue. Solar will only cover it on occasion for most people. So rate of acceptance and draw is probably as important as how far you can draw them down. That will determine how often and how long you run the genset. Wife doesn’t like AC. Given past use profile the fireflys are of interest to us. Your mileage may vary. Had a past experience with spilled acid. Scares me so not keen on FLA. for many carbon doesn’t make any sense. Gensets sip fuel and are minimally intrusive making carbon an unnecessary expense. For others they do.

Think you misrepresent solar. Had an acquaintance and wife, with I believe a 49' DeFever. He set the boat up with solar on the roof and 1600 AH of house battery. They ran the water heater, cooked on an electric stove, made fresh water, and all the other uses (except air conditioning) one has for electricity, for 3 weeks on the hook in the Bahamas, without running the generator. Now that may very well not work in the PNW, and you might not have enough roof space on the boat of your choice, but it does work for a considerable number of people. Further, it was mentioned also in the thread as a good source for completing the last 15 to 20% of the bank recharge.

I respect your right to set up your boat however you want (I certainly did, and don't have any solar), but to say it only works on occasion for most people, well show me your source for that statement. Seems to be a lot of people that cruise the Caribbean and other parts of the world, that rely on solar while on the hook.

Ted

 

[twistedtree]

Setting cost aside for a moment, I think LFP batteries are significantly better performing for a typical house battery application. You can use more of the theoretical capacity, and once your charging system is adjusted properly, you can completely ignore them. No worries about depth of discharge, time at partial state of charge, periodic full recharge, debates about just what a full recharge means, and how often it's needed, equalizing, etc. All of the interminable discussion about batteries just goes away. But maybe that's the reason people want to keep them, because otherwise we would be left with only anchors and filter micron rating to discuss . But seriously, they work really, really well, and are truly set-it-and-forget-it.


I have no direct experience with Fireflys, but they seem to be a step in the right direction. But why take a step when you can go directly to the final destination of LFP? Also, the single manufacturer, and significant lack of independent research on the technology compared to LFP leaves me a bit uncomfortable. LPF has been around for 20 years now, and has been studied and tested in every imaginable way. The same can't be said for FireFlys.



That brings us back to cost. I have seen LPF system pricing where I thought NFW. And I have seen pricing where I thought "why wouldn't I do this?". I recently heard of someone quoted over $100k for an LFP system on a large boat. There is still some serious "premium" pricing going on.


In contrast, I recently paid about a 50% premium per usable amp-hour over AGMs for a top end, fully engineered, fully redundant LFP battery system. For me, that's worth it for the better operational performance, let alone the increased lifespan.


As for the need to "completely redo your charging system", for some boats that might be needed, but for many it won't. Not at all. If you have programmable charging devices made in the past 20 years, they can likely be set up for LFP, just as they can be set up for AGM, GEL, or whatever. I converted a FLA system to LFP about two years ago, and didn't chance a single component in the system other than the batteries. All I had to do was reprogram the various chargers. It's been running 100% trouble free for the past 2 years, cycling every day of the year. And on my boat I didn't pick any charging components specially because of LFP. They are all the same components I would have picked regardless of the battery technology.



At this point, now on my second LFP system, each in different applications, I can't imagine ever building a house bank out of lead (any variant) ever again. The only exception would be if it needed to operate in really hostile temperature conditions. Then I might be forced into lead.



I think LFP is a bit like stabilizers. People without them will argue why you don't need them. But people who have them would never again be without them. Try it, you'll like it.

 

[twistedtree]

Regarding solar, I really envy the few people who can fit 1600+ watts on their boat. That, plus a cooperative climate could yield power independence.


But for most boats on a multi-day anchoring session, solar is a way to delay the inevitable running of a generator, not eliminate it. But that's still all good, I think. I'm on my second boat now with solar in this category, and I'm still thrilled with the idea.

 

[tpbrady]

TT,

The only operational downside I have seen to LFP is freezing temperatures. While a BMS should take care of that, you have to spend energy to heat the batteries if you have lost shore power for any length of time and the batteries have dropped below freezing. A boat in the water should be fine, but on the hard or in an RV that might be a problem if something doesn’t work as advertised. A frozen flooded battery is a problem but a charged FLA shouldn’t freeze.

Tom

 

[DDW]

Setting cost aside for a moment, I think LFP batteries are significantly better performing for a typical house battery application.

The thing that makes me hesitate, and might make a lot of people hesitate, is the long term storage problem. Opinions and strategies vary, but most of the consensus is on depleting them to the 40 - 60% range and keeping them there, cycling every 4-6 months. That is not so easy to accomplish.

And many boats are effectively kept in long term storage. A boat that is used on weekends and plugged in during the week is effectively that. Or a boat that is stored over the winter off season. AGMs are very happy with this, just plug in, fully charge, and forget.

I've seen some opinions that this isn't all that important for LFP, maybe you decrease their life by 10%, but most manufacturers recommend against storage fully charged.

Another issue is high current discharge, which the "drop in replacement" batteries tend to prevent. That would be thruster and starter loads. If you are building your own pack with high current disconnects for protection, you can program your way around that. And again, with the drop in replacement BMS, what happens when it charges fully, and disconnects? A purpose built BMS will disconnect the alternator field, but otherwise? And if I keep my AGMs or FLAs for starting, what voltages do I set my charger for?

None of these are much of a problem in the live aboard on the hook situation, for which LFP are ideal. But I can still make a case for AGMs on a boat used only in season, or only on weekends. It isn't that there is nothing to worry about with LFP, but different things to worry about.

I am about to replace the batteries in both boats, different use cases, and I am struggling with it - not a clear decision.

 

[Hippocampus]

Ted we lived on the boat for 7 years. Twice a year went from or to eastern Caribbean to New England. Had 2 panels (mono crystalline with independent controllers) and two D400 wind generators (also independent). Except for the rare occasions when in a slip virtually no AC running. Panels were on the hard Bimini so never shadowed.
This is a a relatively unusual set up for most trawlers from my observations. This would cause us to have to schedule genset runs in order that that engine was periodically exercised. So would turn on the AC after closing her up, vacuum the boat, charge all the power tools, make water, charge all handheld electronics and top the batteries up. Needed to do that once or twice a month. But this was a very efficient sailboat with great ventilation and in settings where solar and wind output was nearly ideal all the time.
We’ve been looking at N40, N43 and N47. Been speaking with owners. None have had wind. Some have had two panels. Most have had AC current high output watermakers not the more efficient spectra Cape Horn extreme we were running. Genset runs seem to be much more common. More air conditioning use, more domestic use and more battery topping offs. For us rate of acceptance was a non issue. We rarely went below 80% SOC and extremely rarely below 70% SOC. Seems for them common behavior is to get to through bulk with the genset and depending on domestic use top off with the alternative energy. They commonly go below 80% SOC on a daily basis and not infrequently even down to 60%.
Batteries are heavy. Once out of the US shipping costs high. Availability may be limited. Sulfanation occurs with cycles. Although below 50% should be avoided even if you care for them and equalize periodically they are a consumable. Bahama boats go back to the US for replacement. I want to do my replacements when my routine schedule makes it easy and less expensive. I don’t replace when failure occurs but rather when load test dictates. Having the ability to run at less than 100% SOC for long times is meaningful to me. Having a high rate of acceptance is as well. Different strokes for different boats.

 

[Hippocampus]

For awhile Fatty Arbuckle had a similar program of use to us. He published an article reporting his experience. He (and we) noted in the winter Caribbean solar output was less than wind. Shorter winter days when in the Caribbean c/w longer days up north in the summer meant less solar output when south.
Combined with excellent trade winds in the islands versus light air up north he strongly recommended having both if you snow bird in any fashion.
However I’ve yet to see any wind on trawlers.

?why?

 

[rslifkin]

For awhile Fatty Arbuckle had a similar program of use to us. He published an article reporting his experience. He (and we) noted in the winter Caribbean solar output was less than wind. Shorter winter days when in the Caribbean c/w longer days up north in the summer meant less solar output when south.
Combined with excellent trade winds in the islands versus light air up north he strongly recommended having both if you snow bird in any fashion.
However I’ve yet to see any wind on trawlers.

?why?

I've thought about a wind gen to go along with solar. Noise is somewhat of a concern, but on most powerboats, the big issue seems to come down to "where the heck do I put the thing?"



On a trawler with a mast, it's a little easier. But for the others, it would have to go on a pole somewhere. But it has to be up high enough that the boat doesn't block the wind, which likely means a tall pole that might need stays. And it still needs to be possible to remove or lower it for bridge clearance unless you're working with a pretty low profile boat.

 

[Hippocampus]

Thanks for the answer. Recent ones like the D400 are remarkably quiet. We had two above the Bimini on unstayed 4” poles and had to look at them to see if they were running.

On the small nordies was thinking putting them off brackets mounted on the fiberglass surrounding the dry stack. Boat pivots into the wind at anchor so should get excellent flow. That structure is commonly hinged with wrinkle to allow it to fold for bridge clearance. On other designs would think pilot house top would serve. Of course for bigger boats it’s a non issue as water draft limits you anyway.

 

[David Ess]

I'm with you David. There seems to be a blind rush to lithium batteries, the relevant benefit of which escapes me except in very limited circumstances. Space, though, is one of them because a similar size bank can be had using less space. Longevity? Who cares. A FLA bank generally lasts 6-8 years. Who among us replacing a battery bank with lithium will even still own that boat in eight years? Pretty much, the installer of lithium batteries will never see a cost benefit, but the next owner may.

There is NO "blind rush", most people get lithium batteries because they're better.

 

[rslifkin]

There is NO "blind rush", most people get lithium batteries because they're better.

But at the same time, we have to remember the 2 kinds of better: "technically better" and "will work better in my application". Plenty of things can be technically better, but based on a specific application won't provide any benefit (but would for someone else).

 

[David Ess]

But at the same time, we have to remember the 2 kinds of better: "technically better" and "will work better in my application". Plenty of things can be technically better, but based on a specific application won't provide any benefit (but would for someone else).

Sure...possible, but usually not the case.

 

[rslifkin]

Sure...possible, but usually not the case.

I dunno. In the case of my boat, I wouldn't be able to down-size my battery bank with lithium, so I'd end up gaining more usable capacity. That might be nice, but I don't need it. But down-sizing would be a problem for handling peak loads. So the cost would be pretty large. And I'd have to make sure my whole charging setup is suitable (most of it is, but a few things might need changing) and can handle the event of a BMS cut-out. And I only have limited need for better PSOC capability, so I wouldn't gain a lot performance-wise.



In my situation, I'd end up spending easily 4 - 5 times the cost of a new set of AGMs to switch to lithium. Which means they'd have to last at least 4 times as long to make sense. As the prices come down more over time, it'll start to be a good option for a wider range of situations.

 

[O C Diver]

We’ve been looking at N40, N43 and N47. Been speaking with owners. None have had wind. Some have had two panels. Most have had AC current high output watermakers not the more efficient spectra Cape Horn extreme we were running. Genset runs seem to be much more common. More air conditioning use, more domestic use and more battery topping offs. For us rate of acceptance was a non issue. We rarely went below 80% SOC and extremely rarely below 70% SOC. Seems for them common behavior is to get to through bulk with the genset and depending on domestic use top off with the alternative energy. They commonly go below 80% SOC on a daily basis and not infrequently even down to 60%.
Batteries are heavy. Once out of the US shipping costs high. Availability may be limited. Sulfanation occurs with cycles. Although below 50% should be avoided even if you care for them and equalize periodically they are a consumable. Bahama boats go back to the US for replacement. I want to do my replacements when my routine schedule makes it easy and less expensive. I don’t replace when failure occurs but rather when load test dictates. Having the ability to run at less than 100% SOC for long times is meaningful to me. Having a high rate of acceptance is as well. Different strokes for different boats.

If I were doing the type of cruising you plan to do and were going to invest in a Nordy, I'd probably invest in an ultra quiet generator and a large commercial duty second alternator with external 3 stage regulator, on the propulsion engine. Accept that I would either charge the batteries while cruising or run the generator for some number of hours before bedtime. If you're going to spend the money for a Nordy, why not get a generator that's about as loud as the refrigerator. Then battery chemistry truly doesn't matter. This is the setup on my boat except that the generator is somewhat louder.

While I appreciate everyone's right to pick the battery chemistry of their choice, life expectancy of batteries with proper maintenance is quite predictable (same rules as your propulsion engine). I have about 900 AH of battery. Replacement cost is around $900. At around 7 years, I see it as a scheduled maintenance cost, no different than an oil change, heat exchanger service, or other scheduled preventative maintenance.

One of my biggest stumbling block to considering an alternative battery chemistry is the manufacturer's warranty. If they're supposed to last a gazillion cycles and all the charging parameters don't matter, why do they have such a crap warranty for the exorbitant cost?

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

I think LFP is a bit like stabilizers. People without them will argue why you don't need them. But people who have them would never again be without them. Try it, you'll like it.

I would imagine that people with 90' boats that cruise over 20 knots say much the same thing.

So why is your new boat so small and slow?

Ted

 

[woolf]

We purchased 2 banks of Firefly batteries for our refit directly from the factory in India, at roughly half the list price. Zero problems with the delivery to Europe, and some installation questions were answered by their tech team via email quickly and professionally.

Worked out for us nicely, would do it again anytime.

 

[David Ess]

The battery warrenty on Silent Yachts is 8 or maybe even 10 years. Is that ...crappy?

 

[rslifkin]

The battery warrenty on Silent Yachts is 8 or maybe even 10 years. Is that ...crappy?

No, but they're not selling batteries that any of us could buy or use, so they're irrelevant.

 

[catalinajack]

Better? Okay, let's say that this is universally true. But, how much "better" and at what cost? It is highly likely that lithium installed today will not be cost beneficial to the original installer. I can install three or four banks of FLAs for the cost of one lithium bank with the same number of usable amphours. That's better?

There is NO "blind rush", most people get lithium batteries because they're better.

 

[catalinajack]

Yes, because FLAs generally last about the same number of years.

The battery warrenty on Silent Yachts is 8 or maybe even 10 years. Is that ...crappy?

 

[David Ess]

Yes, because FLAs generally last about the same number of years.

Got it..crappy because advanced tech has an equal warranty and ......perhaps lifespan.

 

[David Ess]

Better? Okay, let's say that this is universally true. But, how much "better" and at what cost? It is highly likely that lithium installed today will not be cost beneficial to the original installer. I can install three or four banks of FLAs for the cost of one lithium bank with the same number of usable amphours. That's better?

Better technically, your major criterion is cost.

 

[O C Diver]

Got it..crappy because advanced tech has an equal warranty and ......perhaps lifespan.

I can buy a battery for my truck with a 2 year exchange warranty and a five year pro rated life warranty. The battery is expected to last 5+ years. If you look, you will find most lithium batteries have a warranty for material defects and workmanship, not cycle life. As many have built in computers to facilitate cell equalization, it would seem a simple matter to track cycles, depth of discharge, and other relevant parameters. So why not a warranty based on performance?

Ted

 

[David Ess]

I can buy a battery for my truck with a 2 year exchange warranty and a five year pro rated life warranty. The battery is expected to last 5+ years. If you look, you will find most lithium batteries have a warranty for material defects and workmanship, not cycle life. As many have built in computers to facilitate cell equalization, it would seem a simple matter to track cycles, depth of discharge, and other relevant parameters. So why not a warranty based on performance?

Ted

I'll watch for boats and electric cars going back to old fashioned lead acid batteries..

 

[O C Diver]

I'll watch for boats and electric cars going back to old fashioned lead acid batteries..

Why?

For electric cars, it's all about weight and space relative to amp hours. In most boat applications, weight and space aren't critical. BTW, you do realize that almost all boats sold in the USA with a gas or diesel engine, come with a FLA or AGM battery(s), don't you?

Ted

 

[ksanders]

There is NO "blind rush", most people get lithium batteries because they're better.

That is a blanket statement that encompasses many variables.

it is also frankly false.

I can supply manufacturer supplied data that shows that Battleborn Lithium Batteries compared to Crown FLA batteries are roughly 150% the price per kilowatt hour of energy delivered over their lifecycle.

So... Lithium might be better at some things, but not all things.

 

[Hippocampus]

Long ago decided I’d only use northern lights or similar multiple cylinder, low rpm gensets. Been very pleased with my northern lights. Don’t find noise really an issue. Especially with the genset in the ER and in a sound enclosure.
Think it’s so simple to have a high output alternator can’t see a downside to that nor having another on a clutch to the get home. Then you’re truly belt and suspenders with three different engines as possible sources for electrons.
Folks I know who have Li or C batteries tell me the biggest upside is they stop thinking about their batteries and their use in the same way they did with any form of Pb.

 

[O C Diver]

Folks I know who have Li or C batteries tell me the biggest upside is they stop thinking about their batteries and their use in the same way they did with any form of Pb.

Lot to be said for not worrying about your batteries. Other than checking the water level once a month, I generally don't think about them if not on the hook for more than a day.

Ted