Looking for Advice - Made Offer on 79 CHB Europa

[royalto3rd]

Hello Friends,

Overwhelmed and grateful for how much information is in this forum as a newbie! It has been tremendously helpful as we recently made an offer on a boat we located. Surprisingly, I found threads from the owner before the current owner, when he was asking this forum for advice. Quite the history. It was like tracing ancestry!

So we made an offer on a 79 CHB Europa 42. It has w/twin Lehmans (~1550hrs) and lived the last 8 years in freshwater under a covered berth outside Stockton, Ca.
Fast forward to the the sea trial we completed last week. Despite some rattles and non-functioning electronics (radar, heater, and air cond.), the big concern was port side engine overheating. Very little water coming out of exhaust, mostly steam actually. While running it briefly at WOT, though alarms never went off, using a pyrometer, things were getting hot (oil started spewing out the overflow of tranny). Could be clogged HE, bad impeller, injection elbow or exhaust manifold. The current owner hasn't put 100hrs on it since 2017, and didn't do maintenance at all; it was primarily a live aboard for her.
So, what to do? Do I walk/run away, or get a mechanical survey (~$900) first? Or ask if the owner is even interested in negotiating before the mechanical survey?
Trying to figure this out before the Offer expires on the 21st.

Thanks!

Royalto

 

[BruceK]

Could easily be all those things with the port Lehman, plus a blockage/restriction around no.6 cylinder in the water jackets. And why is the stbd engine not similarly affected.
Without people seeing the boat advert or knowing the price or the offer I doubt you can get useful advice. You made an offer, doesn`t that mean you are already negotiating,why not wait until seller accepts/rejects? It sounds like a boat where you get a mech survey first which should give you an escape route, but without knowing more, hard to contribute.

 

[READY]

I would ask the seller to find and correct the problem. They should provide the report and copy of paid invoice. Then if satisfactory you could move forward. You should not try to negotiate a reduction as neither you nor the buyer know the extent of the problem. Could be just an impeller or could be way more serious. You should not put any money into this (ie doing an engine survey at this time). It grossly failed the seatrial but if you are still interested in the boat you can communicate that to the seller and keep escrow open (modify the contract as needed so your deposit is not at risk). If the boat is otherwise in good condition and the price is right I would not necessarily run from it. The listing broker should have probably asked the seller to test run this prior if he knew the boat had been sitting like it was. He knew a sea trial was inevitable and such an obvious problem will just cause everyone to waste time.

 

[High Wire]

Yes, the seller should correct and document findings. Or you should walk away, or negotiate a price to correct issues.

 

[royalto3rd]

My broker, for all intents and purposes, says to hold for the oil samples I pulled after the trial. Those are due within a day. Should be telling if there's coolant traces or too much wear (ie. if overheating has been going on longer than just the trial).
The seller wrote a counter to my initial offer, adding 15k. I think it's indicating she's not interested in putting anything in regardless of what's found. As Is Where Is.
Thanks for the replies so far.
Cheers!

 

[SoWhat]

The problems could be fatal to the engine so require repair. The only way to estimate repair costs is to have a mechanical survey. But the current owner has already countered with a 15K bump indicating she is not interesting in negotiating a lower price.
If you low balled the offer then a survey might give you an estimated repair cost and you could bump up your offer appropriately. If you think you made a good offer then keep looking. Her boat will still be on the market next year and she will be willing to drop the price because no buyer will offer her premium prices for an engine on it's last legs.
Oil samples do not take the place of a mechanical survey. She may have changed the oil recently. Note that a survey won't be able to pull parts off to make an accurate diagnosis. They can make a guess but you could be in for an engine replacement and I would price the offer accordingly.

 

[mvweebles]

Boat should be run at WOT for at least 5-mins, not briefly. This is not an unusual sea trial test. If boat alarms, owner repairs and sea trial is redone. If owner balks, not much you can do but walk. It's pretty cut and dried on engine WOT for sea trial. This isn't an oil analysis thing and you're not on the hook to diagnose. Seller needs to fix this whether for you or next buyer. He already has one buyer. Better you than the next guy.

Good luck.

Peter

 

[BruceK]

My broker, for all intents and purposes, says to hold for the oil samples I pulled after the trial. Those are due within a day. Should be telling if there's coolant traces or too much wear (ie. if overheating has been going on longer than just the trial).
The seller wrote a counter to my initial offer, adding 15k. I think it's indicating she's not interested in putting anything in regardless of what's found. As Is Where Is.

There`s enough red flag without oil samples, broker is likely just trying(as he should) to keep you on the line. The overheat is serious, no reason to date it from sea trial. Not run in anger for 6 years??
We don`t know the original ask, or your offer, or her "+15K" counter offer. Could be fair, could be totally mad.
Safe position is budget to replace the engine. What of its twin, is it similar or about to be?

 

[Max1]

Very little water coming out of exhaust, mostly steam actually. While running it briefly at WOT, though alarms never went off, using a pyrometer, things were getting hot (oil started spewing out the overflow of tranny). Could be clogged HE, bad impeller, injection elbow or exhaust manifold.

The impeller on Lehmans tend to get very hard with age. Owners manual recommends yearly replacement. For one that is sitting around for 6 years, I would guarantee the rubber is hard as a rock and the impeller probably disintegrated while running WOT. Its an easy fix BUT that onus should be on the seller to ensure the engine is in good operating condition before listing it for sale. Unless of course, it is listed "as is" and the price lowered to reflect the costs the buyer will incur to get it going again.

Behind the most likely problem being a bad/broken impeller, A blocked heat exchanger is another intentional simple fix. Depending on the model, some heat exhangers have cover plates on both sides that can be opened and inspected for blockage. Clean-out (usually disintegrated impeller pieces) and re-seal the cover and you are good to go. Again, seller should have done this prior to listing. On the subject of heat exchanger blockage, don't forget to open and inspect the engine oil and transmission oil coolers for blockages as well.

 

[SoWhat]

Behind the most likely problem being a bad/broken impeller, A blocked heat exchanger is another intentional simple fix.

Yes, you are correct, they are most likely problems, but maybe not.
No owner is going to allow you to disassemble his water pump or cooling systems to inspect internals as part of a survey.

You can make your best guess but $15K is on the table if your wrong.

 

[royalto3rd]

All the great feedback so far!
I feel the consensus is to have the seller do the necessary fixes since there's no way to know the depth of the problem without opening things up, which a mechanical surveyor can't do. Furthermore, moving forward with a purchase is a risky gamble ($15k, ouch!). I'm pretty sure the seller won't do any work since I offered 2/3's the asking price; however, that asking price was astronomical for a 40+ year old boat. So this standoff may lead to the offer expiring without action.

I received the oil analyses yesterday. Posting for those who may know how to read and interpret them. After I looked at them, I'm worried about the potential for future failure.

I'm grateful this group has been so welcoming and informative to help guide us through the process.

Cheers!

 

[sunchaser]

Royal
If you want to seriously cruise this vessel there appears a host of non functioning and expensive items beyond the engine. Make a list of these items, price out replacements/repairs, add 50% and make your offer accordingly. Then plan on a year or two to bring everything up to cruise ready.

Dock queens can be costly and challenging to transition to cruising.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

Just a mention of an experience that I had once with hiring a mechanic. Took him with me for an inspection prior to making an offer. Owner admitted that there were some expensive issues. Ran with the mechanic and he said the issue was actually very simple. Came back and the mechanic became Chatty Cathy with the owner. I paid the mechanic and he left. The owner, having learned that the issue was simple and relatively inexpensive to correct, decided to keep it. So I paid for a lesson. I now explain to mechanics and surveyors that they are working for me and that the info is mine. Most already know, but apparently some don't.

 

[Seevee]

Need to have a bit more info.... but....


If you feel the boat is worth it at the offer price plus the $15, then accept the offer with the following conditions:
Seller fixes all the issues, with some sort of timeline. Add to that, he is committed to selling it with a penalty for backing out. If he doesn't fix on time, there's a penalty clause or the option to fix yourself and deduct whatever the cost is. As an incentive, I'd offer a bonus to fix before the deadline.


But, if I were him, I'd ask for a non refundable deposit, which would be fair with your offer.


You'd need a moderator that would handle any issues.


However, it could be a win/win. You get the boat you want, running and fixe for a known price... just might take a bit of time.


He gets his asked price, less the cost of fixing it, which he'd most likely have to do anyway.



Not the way I'd normally buy or sell, but could work.