Long Range Cruising - How big is too big?

[backinblue]

I watched the movie Sea Gypsies the other day, really enjoyed it. One quote comes to mind, "Adventure is just poor planning". Well maybe actually there is another one from the movie as well, "When EVERYTHING goes wrong, that's when adventure starts." Regardless of your opinion, a worthwhile watch for just about 90 minutes long.

 

[garbler]

It’s already been mentioned here that commercial fishing vessels must set on their lines or they will roll your eye teeth out light and yacht conversions are LIGHT. Most of the West coast fishing hulls I’ve know running empty will roll slow but snap back fast and that’s hard on the crew. Take a West coast limit seiner for instance say a fifty ton boat. That means a large refrigerated or ice hold capable of 10000 # pounds of catch to but her down on her lines max. Even 40000# is essentially light and most of these boats can work you to death coming home empty. Think about what it would take in trim ballast and conversion furniture and fittings to make up the difference. Not to mention all the mechanical systems deck equipment etc you’ll need to remove to gain living and yachting spaces and the weight issue is going the wrong way. With seiners and other types the engine room is normally mid ships and even sometimes farther forward than that to allow for the hold. I’ve worked on many 50 to 70’ seiners with three piece shafts and a run of spring bearings and couplings that need service all the time.

Offshore oil patch supply or ‘ Rig Tenders ‘ are usually triple screw with lots of fuel and certainly can run offshore. A good friend of mine delivered these from Morgan City, LA to Africa for a couple of years and they can do it alright but. Everything from machinery spaces, accommodations and bridge are all the way forward cause aft the hulls are sub-divided into a series of fuel, water and drilling mud tanks. Not just a few but lots of them. The big flat work and pipe deck is without safe high bulwarks as handling drill pipe and equipment needs heavy round rails. My experience with these boats is a slow turn of speed is not comfortable these boats are almost always run at speed and that’s what they are designed and built to do.

A possible choice would be a hydrographic vessel where accommodations and labs are more easily converted. The ones I’ve seen for sale over the years are well used but with a good audio gauge and mechanical inspection you find a keeper. Just spitballing but something to think about.

Rick

 

[Mako]

True @garbler. Commercial fishing vessels are not necessarily ideal. You may wind up with 25-30% ballast. Also, the main engine and generator(s) are likely not ideal either. A recreational boater who plans to cruise at 8 knots may not need the hundreds of horsepower. So you either rebuild the engine and detune it, or pull it out and replace with something smaller. Which will be, unfortunately, lighter. The generators may likely be oversized, and even if not, they will be old and worn. You'll want to tear them out anyway.

The good thing is that in a conversion you'll want to add a heavy interior, so you can put down 100% cement board with radiant tubing and thick slabs of marble, a marble shower and tub, etc.

Back to reality, a research or a survey vessel would make a better conversion in general, as you mentioned.

 

[FOADIAC]

1. Wouldn't glass be much less maintenance intensive then steel?
2. Twin Engine (more reliability) w/single screw?
3. Bow & Stern Thrusters if manned with only 2-people for docking?
4. Just did a YachtWorld search, 60-80', under $750k, North America, plenty of options
5 Or, find yourself a Navy YP from the Annapolis or Newport training fleet.

 

[socalrider]

Maybe the OP would find this boat inline with what he is dreaming of:
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1962-custom-research-yacht-7174659/

That's a boat that looks worthy of investing one's unending love, time and money.

Bow is riding high though; wonder why that is.

 

[JCieh]

Steel experience

We’re cruising FL East Coast, Cuba, Bahamas and actually FL West Coast with our Dutch made ALTENA Blue Water Trawler. It’s 49‘ , 16‘ beam and draws 5‘.
The steel hull ,combined with a strong keel and skeg keels to protect rudders and props, is amazingly solid and all the ICW or Gulf of Mexico shallows doesn’t affect us at all.
But keep in mind, steel is corroding fast in this salty, sunny and humid environment in the subtropics and tropics. It’s a steady project fixing all the dents and spots and prevent them from further corrosion.
I do recommend Dutch steel hulls because they collected experience over decades and some of them, including mine, are CE-A certified and made for long range crossings.
So keep an eye on the Dutch or European markets. You rarely find those boats over here.
Good luck, Jan

 

[dbaoter]

Long Range Crui

Remember the 20 meter rule. Many countries require a pilot. There is a charge. We have been cruising a 60' steel trawler over 20 years now. Long Rane twin engines. When we we were building the boat, lots of "friends" told us they visit for a week or two. Too include our kids, I can count on two hands the time we have had visitors more than a day or two. Just two of us for 98% of the cruising. We learned to handle 60 feet on our own. Make room for a dinghy or two. We carry a 15' deep V, amazing ride, and a 10' inflatable to run on the beach. Anchoring not an issue.. 7' draft. We have places around the world.

 

[Hammer]

Hello all.

In 9 years I intend to leave it all behind and set sail for an indeterminate amount of time. The rough plan is to leave the TX Gulf Coast and slowly meander the world, including high latitudes.

Originally I was going to cash out my 401k at retirement and buy something pretty nice. I've since amended that plan and now will be buying a steel hull of some type and completing a top-to-bottom refit myself over the course of 9 years. I understand this is likely an insane proposition, but I'm very confident in my skills and like a lot of the pros - knowing every system front to back, financing the project over 9 years, complete customization, etc.

At a later date I would love to have my idea ripped apart to ensure there's nothing I'm not considering. But today, I'd like to hear your opinion oh how big is too big? Not during a crossing obviously because you can't be too big, but in your day-to-day cruising from port to port.

I'm looking at the 50-70' range; likely an older commercial fishing hull that draws 4-6'. However, some larger offshore supply vessels have caught my eye based on their blank-slate layout, but they're around 110'. I know the 110' will likely draft more, requiring me to anchor further out, but that extra length allows me to have a dinghy and a larger aluminum deep V that can get on plane and make quick runs to the dock.

I understand some smaller ports wont have a gantry capable of larger steel vessels, but other than your occasional bottom paint, have you ever had to been hauled out in an emergency type situation that needed to be handled immediately as opposed to a more equipped port?

Basically, what length and draft would you consider prohibitive for an average guy to bounce around the world?

To clarify some variables - assume a worst case of only 2 people on board, will be equipped with bow & stern thrusters, no intention on transient docking unless absolutely necessary (mooring/anchoring out always), a pretty healthy yearly cruising budget but nothing crazy, and no time-frame/schedule at all so weather windows will be chosen carefully.

Thanks all!

Nine years updating? That’s a lifetime. Buy a nice older 50 foot trawler. Update it and use it and learn. When you are ready to leave you will be ready.

 

[Martin J]

For what its worth here is my 2 cents.
Once you pass 50ft insurance frequently require more than 2 people on board even to move it across the Harbor in most cases. Get into the 80-90 ft steel boat you may have to carry 5-6 capable insurance acceptable crew. Steel boat are horrendously high maintenance.
This related to the How big clause. I cruised the eastern Caribbean in my Cheoy Lee 50 with Naiad stabilzers.
You need old tyle, no electronic engines. Leave the U.S. and competent mechanics are rare. You need to have the capability to mend, fix, repair things yourself. The KISS principle is very important, if you want to do serious long-distance cruising.
There are many older 80's LRC boats cropping up in the 50ft range with good fuel economy. Many of these boats are in good basic condition. They've just become idle in slips with aging owners, who have not been able to "Let it go". The fiberglass hulls are easier to maintain and easier on the pocket.
The only advice that is a must is stabilzers, that is one thing you will never regret having on board.

 

[Mako]

+1 for some sort of stabilization. Except that doesn’t mean it needs to be hydraulic stabilizers. There are many options out there.

 

[Mako]

@TT, hope you’re still following this thread. Regarding to mechanical versus electronic engines for blue water remote cruising, since you have a new vessel with an electronic engine, what kind of spares or diagnostic equipment do you carry in that regards? Spare sensors, an entire ECM, etc.?

 

[long-cours.62]

For people who dream for 100' + steel boat

For people who dream for 100' + steel boat .
During month (may be year! ) we try to negotiate this one, at the helm sure you feel like Captain Haddock at the helm of the Sirius .
All what I don't like draft xxl, need crew or good friend , very heavy, single ... but at the first step when one of my broker friend contacted me it was a great opportunity, but later an another broker and a captain enter in the "equation" an no more interesting for us oups for me, because for my wife the size count and she don't want (too)big boat

 

[twistedtree]

@TT, hope you’re still following this thread. Regarding to mechanical versus electronic engines for blue water remote cruising, since you have a new vessel with an electronic engine, what kind of spares or diagnostic equipment do you carry in that regards? Spare sensors, an entire ECM, etc.?

I have a lot more faith in electronic engines that most, but still feel some level of sparing is wise for any engine. I've only taken a quick look at my engine, but did notice that things like crank position sensors are already dual redundant on the engine. For the first year I don't think I'll carry anything beyond wear items. So I'll have impellers, filters, seals. Next in priority would probably be a handful of sensors, a cooling pump, and a raw water pump. Then possibly a unit injector (it's a unit injector engine, not common rail), and possibly the low(er) pressure fuel pump.


Realistically I think any incapacitation of the engine will put me on the wing engine, and I'll be flying in spares at the next stop. I'm not real convinced one can predict what such a failure might include, so in many ways sparing becomes a wild guess unless you want to buy a spare of everything. My focus has really been more on having redundancy, and dealing with repairs as needed. That can be time consuming depending on what it takes to get spares, but for the next year I'll be in the PNW and Alaska, and getting spares from Seattle to most of Alaska is faster than shipping parts between any most any other two locations in the country.


To your original question, I have never carried an ECU, and am not feeling any more of a need than I did before. Some day it will probably bite me in the ass, but I think there are lots of other ass-biters out there too.

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

50'odd, is a good size manageable by two people with space for guests and not so expensive. It starts to max out at 70', probably tops 80' if there is just two of you. Some good automation helps make life livable at that size. 55 foot and above allows for three cabins so you can take friends and crew for a longer passage, just a couple on smaller jollies. For ocean crossing it's more about hydrodynamics than fuel capacities. Displacement hulls have the types of range you need, planing or semi planing hulls just drink too much fuel per NM. On that basis expect and come to appreciate life in the slow(er) lane. Have fun.

 

[Simi 60]

Generally, 50 ft imho is going to mean frequent marina visits due to lack of storage, refrigeration space etc
Marinas cost $$$

60ft+ and there is plenty of storage and refrigeration space
Can stay out indefinately.

 

[BandB]

I have a lot more faith in electronic engines that most, but still feel some level of sparing is wise for any engine. .

We've only run electronic engines as our coastal boating started in 2012 and with 2012 built boats. Only have run common rail. I think we missed the period that scares many of you and that is when the new generation of engines first hit. Even then I suspect as much of the problem was lack of familiarity and experience as the equipment. It was new to everyone.

We haven't had any issues and I'd venture a guess that our electronic have far outperformed most old mechanical. It's just some are more comfortable with mechanical.

As to parts we keep with us, really very similar.

I look at it like I look at any changes in technology. I don't want to be the one they learn or experiment with so not a first adapter, but more a second or third. Give it a year, but then I'm comfortable.

For those of you who feel timid about electronics, perhaps go to a school of your engine manufacturer. The more you learn, the more comfortable you'll feel.

 

[Rsysol]

So we somewhat fit your mold, a custom 55’ steel trawler, spend the last few years refitting and just recently shoved off for our retirement cruising.

First of all, we love it and your concept, who’d of thunk that? ?

A couple of opinions, too big is variable but our 55 is about the most we’d like to handle. Full time cruising is also full time boat maintenance, the miles take their toll.

Second, we also like to anchor out but find, in reality, that we need to be at the dock at times. Provisioning, repairs and most importantly, inland travels make anchoring less palatable. Still, we like to keep a 75/25 split to anchor vs. dock.

Steel is real, best choice IMHO.

 

[rslifkin]

I have a lot more faith in electronic engines that most, but still feel some level of sparing is wise for any engine. I've only taken a quick look at my engine, but did notice that things like crank position sensors are already dual redundant on the engine. For the first year I don't think I'll carry anything beyond wear items. So I'll have impellers, filters, seals. Next in priority would probably be a handful of sensors, a cooling pump, and a raw water pump. Then possibly a unit injector (it's a unit injector engine, not common rail), and possibly the low(er) pressure fuel pump.


Realistically I think any incapacitation of the engine will put me on the wing engine, and I'll be flying in spares at the next stop. I'm not real convinced one can predict what such a failure might include, so in many ways sparing becomes a wild guess unless you want to buy a spare of everything. My focus has really been more on having redundancy, and dealing with repairs as needed. That can be time consuming depending on what it takes to get spares, but for the next year I'll be in the PNW and Alaska, and getting spares from Seattle to most of Alaska is faster than shipping parts between any most any other two locations in the country.


To your original question, I have never carried an ECU, and am not feeling any more of a need than I did before. Some day it will probably bite me in the ass, but I think there are lots of other ass-biters out there too.

I would agree with that logic. In general, the most important thing is being able to get parts, documentation, access to any computer tools needed, etc. so you can fix the thing. As long as you can get the necessary parts and information and the basic design is proven reliable, it doesn't really matter what parts make the thing tick.

 

[Mako]

It would be interesting to hear from someone who has done the miles in remote locales. Anyone have contact info for the Nordhavn Infinity? I assume he has an electronic engine.

 

[Lepke]

I have a lot more faith in electronic engines that most.


Not me and not on the ocean. Electronic engines are great when they're new and all the sensors and circuit boards are new. But then they start to fail, and if you can't troubleshoot or carry spares then you're on your own. Cars fail all the time. But a tow truck is close by.

 

[socalrider]

Cars fail all the time. But a tow truck is close by.

I haven't seen that to be the case. I remember there being a lot of debate about carburetors versus fuel injection, or points versus electronic ignition. In both cases, the newer tech is tougher or impossible to fix if it fails. But in practice, neither ever fail. New cars are massively more reliable than old cars. I've never once had a mechanical breakdown in a modern (say 2000+) car.

Is there any evidence that modern electronic diesels having reliability problems?

 

[guy with a boat]

Cars fail all the time. But a tow truck is close by.

I grew up with hot rods and project cars and we always carried tools and a tow strap. I couldn't even count how many times me or my friends needed a roadside repair or a tow.



Knocking on wood, but I have had a car break down in decades. The reliability of modern cars (at all price points) is pretty amazing, IMO.


Put me down as another believer in modern electronic marine diesels.

 

[bowball]

I haven't seen that to be the case. I remember there being a lot of debate about carburetors versus fuel injection, or points versus electronic ignition. In both cases, the newer tech is tougher or impossible to fix if it fails. But in practice, neither ever fail. New cars are massively more reliable than old cars. I've never once had a mechanical breakdown in a modern (say 2000+) car.

I have a very different experience! Two BMW’s that left me stranded three times in limp mode due to failed high pressure fuel pumps and injectors. A Mercedes that had a transmission error that confused drive with reverse. A Tesla that shut down and wouldn’t reboot plus charging doors jammed, doors that wouldn’t unlock and extend the handles, etc.

My Porsche 356’s have never let me down over the decades except for a drained battery once (my fault) and a stuck carb float that I fixed in two minutes.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

The biggest we had was 28.95m for two people on board is too much, the biggest we use during two year was 26.86m for two people it was not easy and at this time we was 28 years younger...
Our former Long-Cours 62' was perfect for us.
Our actual 72' could be perfect if : less draft (say under 1.30m), less air draft( under 3.40m), less beamy (under 5.05m), smaller engine ( don't need 2x700 hp), lighter by at less 20 t

Great info! Thanks for numbers based on personal experience.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

Funny how different we all are.

First off to address OP’s question, I believe 50ft is the minimum realistic size for long term blue water cruising to remote areas. Max size is the 19.8. meter (65 ft) threshold. Mine was that size and I could easily operate and maintain it by myself.

Regarding to @LC’s comments, I go the other direction and would say ideally 40 tons on 50ft with a 5-6 ft draft. On 65ft looking at 6-7 ft draft. However my interest is not European canals.

And IMO I’d want a single powered at 3hp per ton displacement, M1 rating, running about 70% at cruise speed. Bow thruster. No stern thruster, but fit a fishtail to your rudder.

Regarding to a 95ft boat with two people, well @LC, I have to admit you had a lot of guts!

OP, forget about supply vessels.

Awesome response! Thanks for your personal experience and specific recommendations.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

IMO Mako's post hit the nail on the head. At 50' and 40 tons two people can just about manage. Storage should be enough and 50 ton travelifts are common. My own boat is heavier and required that the anchor rode and fuel be offloaded before being moved by a 50 ton lift. Extra work but saved $$$ because we could be hauled at a regular Marina not one specifically for super yachts.

Great intel....under 50 tons sounds most efficient. Thanks.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

OP, check out YachtSalvage.com for some 'need fixing-up' bargains.

They get some interesting boats on there, especially after a U.S. based hurricane.

Thank you!!!!! I'm always on the hunt for these types of sites so I can get a really good idea of what's out there.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

You've got an insurance problem before then I have to warn you about.

I don't know where you intend to work on the boat, but you may need a permit and you definitely need insurance, which may be difficult to arrange. You'll also have a problem when first launching the boat, if it hasn't been cleared previously by government or insurance. You face the "Insurer won't insure until it's proven in water and yards won't launch until it's insured."

Then you're not the only insurance challenge, the boat is. It will be subject to many who won't insure because of age or builder.

Thanks for the info. Insurance is a huge aspect that I'm unfamiliar with, but I know I need to learn a lot and strategize accordingly.

Any recommendation as to how/where to best and most efficiently learn the intricacies of boat insurance of this caliber?

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

There are 3 editions of that book; I read the 3rd edition cover to cover and thoroughly (!!!) enjoyed it. It made me want to do what you are planning….

The 3rd edition was updated/revised I THINK in the 1990s. The wife of The man that updated it wrote articles for a magazine. She put the articles together ( with lots of other writing) into a book. Title was something like “cruising the Mediterranean under power….” Or something like that.

That book threw cold water on any dreams I had. Or maybe I should say a cold dose of reality! My wife would NOT last very long! WAY TOO MUCH LIKE WORK!!! That book also talked about crossing borders, custom officials, paperwork…..

I still dream occasionally. Then I see the book Somewhere in the house ( never finished the last couple chapters- I fell out of love….) and know it is just a daydream for me….

I wish you best and success!!! Then come here and tell us about it!!!

Mine is the 4th edition, from 2013. Another commenter said the later issue has become more advertising so I may have to seek out some earlier editions. I appreciate the kind words.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

When we were looking for Fintry, we looked at a couple of fish boats. As a rule, they are deeper than you want to be -- in the 10-12 foot range. Even if you always anchor out, we learned on our circumnav that 7-8 feet feet is about the limit. And, the extra draft increases wetted surface which, in turn, increases fuel consumption.



Dee and I ran Fintry for 17 years, including an Atlantic crossing and a 5,000 mile trip to the five Great Lakes, about 20,000 miles altogether. She's 79 feet, 150 tons displacement. As a rule larger boats are easier because they are more stable. She's now for sale because we're in our late 70s and her home marina deteriorated to the point that we could no longer live aboard there.


Fintry had 64 sisters -- several are gone, but you could one of them for $200,000 or so and refit to meet your needs. Alternately, you could buy Fintry -- more money, but much better equipped.


I agree wholeheartedly that 100 feet is too much. I see little advantage over maybe 80-85 feet. I also agree that you want a single screw. Much better fuel economy and much better protection for the propeller. I see no need for a stern thruster -- with her 5 foot propeller and rudder to match, the propwash pushes the stern in very easily. I can parallel park her in a 90 foot hole very easily, and in smaller holes if there's little wind or current.


Jim

Beautiful boat and I really appreciate your experiences. Too bad I'm still 9 years from needing a turn-key boat or else I'd be very interested. Good luck with the sale!