Graduating from a Sailboat to a Trawler

[bayview]

"Bayview, all great points. Yes, many of those are personal preferences. I'm curious, what boat did you end up purchasing?"

After decades of sailboats we bought a Carver 440. ACMY. Never regretted it. Great solid glass hull. Handled well. Very easy to maneuver with twins.
Cockpits take up a lot of space that otherwise could be interior volume. The exception is covered cockpits where they can be enclosed. They are nice for floating docks but not for fixed docks. An aft cabin boat often has a deck over the cabin offering the same outside lounging space as a cockpit. Ours had a boat deck above for dingy storage and full enclosures for all weather lounging.

length is a marketing feature but interior volume is where you live most of the time. Makers learned years ago to add pointy bows and other stuff to advertise the boat as longer without actually making it bigger.

Chartering is a good idea so that everyone gets to evaluate what features they want.

Spend a lot of time on many boats to avoid the common "next boat" experience.

 

[AusCan]

A lot of people love the layout and spaciousness of MS-34. But if ability to handle seas when things get a bit rough is high on your priority list, you may be a little disappointed. Most boats with a beamy square stern and smallish rudder, will struggle in a following sea in comparison to pretty much any sailboat.

I agree with the suggestion about chartering if you want to properly test out a boat

 

[Seevee]

Jim,

You've got a lot of good points.... and the idea of charter is not a bad idea. However, if you start chartering several boats at $3K a pop, you'll have a lot of charter money into it... so enjoy it!

I could argue to show up at a Great Loop Rendevous where you can talk to folks that are really using their boats, and with the "trawler crawls" you can look at a bunch of them.

Ask folks what features they really like and why.... especially folks that have had a few boats. You'll get ideas of what may be better or worse choices for you.

I went thru the choices a while back and ended up with a Mainship 400 single. Yes, the Mainship is a "production" boat and the Sabres, Black Coves, and Grand Banks are more of a custom, quality boats.

However, some of the features I wanted (some similar to yours)
Nice sized cockpit, covered for the sun, room for 4, level with salon, and level with swim platform.
ABSOLUTELY NO LADDERS!
Prefer French doors to sliding doors... just work MUCH better and easier to maintain.
NO teak!
Engine room to work in. Would prefer twins, but not at the expense of no engine room.
Flybridge is a MUST. Absolutely superb for a slow cruise down the waterway, with great visibility.
Upper galley, level with salon (however, after a few years with this, not sure it would be a requirement in the next boat.
Upper and lower helms, and easy to transition.
Easy walk around and good access for single handling. Helm side door, too.
Plenty of storage.
Single head is fine. A second one would be a junk room.
And a bunch of other smaller features......

=====

Now, I've considered another boat, but keep coming back to the 400. I've looked seriously at the Mainship 430 for a tad more speed, room in the salon and the twins... and looked at the Beneteau for more speed, but not much more creature comforts. Both are not a significant difference in costs. But will probably keep the 400 for it's super simplicity and reliability.

 

[syjos]

The essential for us when shopping for a trawler:

Single diesel
Separate roomy shower stall.
Queen size walk around bed.
Roomy taller pilothouse with good visibility
Engine room with excellent access to all sides of the engine
Large water and fuel capacity
Room for an adequate tender and other toys on the boat deck
No flybridge

Those are the essential must haves that would be tough to change post purchase. Everything else can be added, modified etc.

 

[Jim.P]

As I search the listings, I occasionally see "Mariner Orient" trawlers for sale. I am not familiar with this builder. Are they related to Marine Trader?

 

[Ftbinc]

Welcome

Hi

We too are sailors, but purchased our trawler, a KK Manatee about 18 months ago. Your initial list sounded like ours as far as requirements. Over time, and after looking at boats we decided that we would not use a lower helm station much, if we had an enclosed pilot house. The thought of having a full keel underneath us protecting the running gear and big ‘barn door’ rudder made sense so we have a single economical diesel. We can go 7+ knots but not much faster, but we sent a lifetime at these speeds. I would have liked a newer boat, but the room and layout of the manatee fit my wife’s list almost to a tee. I have a little more maintenance., but all boats seem to.

We were able to bring her up the rivers from Kentucky to Chicago with little issue and have been in Lake Michigan since.

Good luck with your search. It took my wife and I about 2.5 years to find the right boat

Paul

KK Manatee ‘Oma’

 

[Jim.P]

Thanks Paul. That Manatee is a great boat. Best of luck with her!

What we are finding so frustrating right now is seeing vessels for which sellers want obscene amounts of money but their conditions are far below what most would consider normal wear and tear. We are sort of sorry we sold our sailboat. We could have just un-stepped the mast and operated it as a trawler, albeit a slow one!

 

[Steveandkelly]

Look at a lot of boats before narrowing your search. Decide on features not brand then go look for those features. Powerboats are different than sailboats. while that seems obvious it allows for very different living area layout but many powerboats too strongly resemble sailboats in interior layout. Form follows function so give up the sailboat ideas and look for powerboat features. Trawler is just a marketing name intended to lure ex sail boaters. Trawlers mostly don't offer benefits over other powerboats, including fuel use.
We never wanted to get on another similar class boat and say we wished we had seen that boat before we bought ours so we looked a lot. Decided we wanted wide side decks, comfortable reading and lounging spaces. Full queen bed, preferably out of the bow, without the need to climb over, twin diesels, no interior helm because it takes up so much space unless the boat if over 50' and no ladders. A reasonable hull design for stably, roll resistance, some speed.
Optional speed is nota bad feature to have and if you plan on spending a lot of time aboard bigger makes for easier living.

On the point about brands; After a search of a handful of brands we were pretty specifically focused on, we ended up buying a brand we never heard of. The lesson we learned is it’s ok to focus on a brand or a short list of brands but know there is more out there beyond your focus.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Is having double the engine maintenance and roughly 150% of the fuel burn during all of the hours you will run worth it just for the extremely unlikely event of an uncorrectable engine failure underway during inshore or nearshore cruising?

Just food for thought. For work purposes I really appreciate the superior maneuverability and yes the get home ability for that .001% chance of an emergency (higher chance at work running at night in rough weather, top speeds in terrain, towing other vessels etc - stuff I’d seldom do with my family ), but as an owner who has to pay the bills - instead of the taxpayers - twin engines don’t pencil out for me. I appreciate the wing engine concept but few are available at least in my price range.

 

[Steveandkelly]

I agree completely with this post.

 

[bayview]

"Is having double the engine maintenance and roughly 150% of the fuel burn during all of the hours you will run worth it just for the extremely unlikely event of an uncorrectable engine failure underway during inshore or nearshore cruising?"

Your fuel numbers are too high. At the same speed the fuel use will be similar. I did 2-3 NMPG at 8-9 kts with a 38000# boat. Probably about what single would do in the same size boat

In any event fuel is far from the largets expense of boat ownership.

 

[jeffnick]

We went from 3 years liveaboard sail to trawler to cuddy cabin to houseboat. You say you like to go outside...at 30mph the house can get to the Bahamas in 2 hours - it also has positive floatation.
https://72land-n-sea.blogspot.com/2011/05/introduction.html

 

[tomdove]

Jim,

I have been sailing for over 65 years and made the trawler transition (I wouldn't call it "Graduation") two years ago as a result of physical limitations. I still sail, but it's not my primary cruising mode now. My final choice was a Grand Banks 32, and you can read the entire story here:

https://chesapeakebaymagazine.com/trawler-treason/?rq=trawlertreason/

Enjoy the story and the adventure of finding your own boat.

-- Tom Dove

 

[gr.andrews]

Have you ever considered a partnership option? This isn't a solicitation but we have been in a partnership with a 42 Foot Cape Flattery for 6 years. It was great because originally there were two owners and one wanted to sell half of his half, which we bought. So we had 3 owners and only 1/4 of the costs to bear. It lives at Granville Island downtown Vancouver at the Fisherman's Wharf which is a commercial dock. There are many private boats there, though and it is the cheapest marina in the lower mainland. We have all reached a stage where we are getting a bit long in the tooth, and have very reluctantly decided to put it on the market. The majority owner may stay involved but myself and the other co owner have had some health issues and are ready to sell. It has been the most successful partnership (other than my marriage - she is standing here so I better add that), that I have been involved with, but I do know a couple of other partnership arrangements that have also been extremely successful. It has allowed us to keep the boat shipshape, and keep the costs down for each of us. If you want to take a look at it, go to www.argonavis.ca. Condos in downtown Vancouver with less square footage of usable space are going for over a million. We have spend many a winter weekend on the boat enjoying the city life in warmth and comfort.

 

[johnma]

i can't speak for the Integrity or Sabre. Both appear to be good boats. I have owned a 390 Mainship for 14 years and I can say that Mainships are very good boats. I particularly like the flybridge steps as opposed to a ladder. Going up and down with food or drinks underway is no problem. For single handed docking I like the starboard side door. It makes line handling easy. As far as seaworthiness goes, it is very different than sail. The sail acts as a stabilizer. In rough weather I often run from the lower station. on any flybridge boat you will get a lot of movement from 12-14' above the water. The higher you go, the worse it is. Also, the fridge on the Sabre and Integrity look awfully small. the Mainship 34T has a small fridge but also has a separate freezer.
I would be concerned with engine room space on a boat with a 12' beam and twins. Seems pretty tight to me.
John

 

[Bryant]

Sail to trawler

Couple of questions.
Why doesn’t your wife want an aft cabin and two heads? Yes, a little more maintenance but two staterooms and separate heads are a blessing on a 36 ft boat, not to mention the extra storage space.
Also, I’m a single engine man. While there are rare occasions when one engine fails due to mechanical problems, the fact is that the main reason for Diesel engine failure is fuel contamination, which means that just after your first engine fails, the second one is right behind it. Add in the cost of maintaining two engines over one and the difficulty I. Getting around the engine room with two engines in a 36 ft boat and I think you might reconsider. I can walk/ crawl around my engine and access every part of it.
Consider. GB 36 Classic with 1 engine.
BTW, you don’t want to tackle “mountain sized waves” in any 36 ft trawler.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

"Is having double the engine maintenance and roughly 150% of the fuel burn during all of the hours you will run worth it just for the extremely unlikely event of an uncorrectable engine failure underway during inshore or nearshore cruising?"

Your fuel numbers are too high. At the same speed the fuel use will be similar. I did 2-3 NMPG at 8-9 kts with a 38000# boat. Probably about what single would do in the same size boat

In any event fuel is far from the largets expense of boat ownership.

Fair enough point about my scale but at displacement speeds twins seem like an unnecessary inefficiency in this size range.

 

[Swede Dreams]

Steve,

Here’s my 2 ören (sorry, I was born in Sweden) worth.


Particularly coming from a sail boat. Speed is not needed, good planning is, you know this from being a sailor. A keel protecting you prop and rudder is golden, yktfbas. The warm/cool helm station on a pilot house is very nice in cold/hot weather, yktfbas.


We’ve cruised full time on a 37 foot, single screw, pilot house trawler for six years now. Here’s what I found so far. I love to gunk hole and having a full keel lets me go into places no exposed prop boat would ever go. I simply nudge in until I hit bottom, no problem. Not once in six years did I need to go faster than 7 knots. In fact, when I took a ride on a friends “fast” boat I found it really, noisy, uncomfortable and downright scary. The place we spend the most time by far is the salon, make sure you get one that you enjoy spending time in.


We have found that our trawler has exceeded all our expectations and needs in these categories. She’s a Mariner Seville (now known as a Helmsman).


Good luck with your search.


Magnus Sjoberg
Swede Dreams
Gunkholing somewhere in the Georgian Bay.

 

[cardude01]

Swede Dreams is an excellent Internet handle (or whatever it’s called. Lol. )

 

[BruceK]

Jim P,you mentioned an interest in the Integrity 346. In the ES series,the 426ES is based on/reflects the Halvorsen designed Island Gypsy 40, the 386ES the IG 36,so I expect the 346 is similarly based on the IG32, though I`ve not seen one. The extra waterline length comes from extending the hull to include the swimstep. They were built by Jiang Hua in China. As with any used boat, check hull condition at survey or before.

 

[FlyWright]

A lot of people love the layout and spaciousness of MS-34. But if ability to handle seas when things get a bit rough is high on your priority list, you may be a little disappointed. Most boats with a beamy square stern and smallish rudder, will struggle in a following sea in comparison to pretty much any sailboat.

I agree with the suggestion about chartering if you want to properly test out a boat

This cannot be understated. I have a similar design boat in a 34 Californian with twins but the fishtailing in following seas can be demanding. You have to know your boat and 'predict' the forces that you need to counteract the yawing force. It's all in the rudder control. It's like flying an airplane. In a narrow channel with a following sea, you just need to know how to even out the forces.

Mine took some practice to get down.

My old wheelpilot AP could never keep up. It's a good workout for an hour or two.

 

[SoWhat]

Is having double the engine maintenance and roughly 150% of the fuel burn during all of the hours you will run worth it just for the extremely unlikely event of an uncorrectable engine failure underway during inshore or nearshore cruising?

I don't think double the engine double the maintenance is an accurate way to decide on engines. For routine maintenance, yes. I use double the number of filters, zincs, impellers, and fluids. It is a very small expense.

For that small extra expense I get improved slow speed maneuverability and I can run the engines at a slower rpm and get increased engine life. My 2 P90's give me 180 hp. A lehman 120, typical for mid 80's Grand Banks, will put out 120 hp. A Lehman 135 gives 135 hp. Obviously turbo's up the game but add increased complexity and their own set of maintenance headaches.

I think the biggest factor is the agility required to do normal maintenance on the outboard engines. You need to be small, agile, and have a high pain threshold. The holding tank is on the starboard side so changing the impeller or cleaning the strainer is an exercise in patience. First I have to remove the exhaust hose. Then there is a long foot wide space to work in. I have changed the raw water pump but I can barely reach it. My arms look like I lost a fight with an alley cat when I am done working in that space.

Port outboard side is a little better. I can lie down on my back or side but there is a lot of wiggling to get out. I have replaced the starter and alternator and it was exhausting. You have to bring every tool you need with you and carefully place them within reach. There's simple no room to move.

If you are considering twins, I think accessibility and your own agility are the factors to consider. Cost is neutral. Increased power and maneuverability are in the plus column. Redundancy? I have SeaTow. Not an issue.

 

[Jim.P]

Tomdove - Grand Banks 32 is becoming high on our wish list. We like the build quality and the cockpit. We are a little afraid of the teak here in FL.
Gr.andrews - Partnership wouldn't work for us. We plan on making her our "home away from home".
Johnma - We originally did not want to go as big as the MS390, but you make good points considering the amount of time we plan on spending on her.
Bryant - Wife wants a level outside area that is an extension of the salon. If the Admiral ain't happy...
Swede Dreams - Agree, we are not necessarily looking for speed and we do want a comfortable salon.
BruceK - Yes, I see the connection Integrity has to the Island Gypsy. The IG32 seems smaller and 6000lbs lighter. I think the I346ES is closer to the IG35MKII.
SoWhat - Our thoughts exactly on twins.

Bryant brings up a puzzling point on seaworthiness. I thought trawlers were inherently more seaworthy than planning hulls like sportfishermans. In nasty seas, would we rather be in a semi-displacement hull or a deep V planning hull?

Wow, the wisdom of this crowd...thanks gang!

 

[bayview]

jim you are falling into the trawler name marketing trap. A GB has a relatively flat semi planning hull. That is how they added more power and made them faster. Trawler is simply a name used for marketing that provides no information for buyers other than that they are usually, but not always, low powered.


The speed option is nice to have for out running storms or making longer offshore passages or just because you want to go fast.. I don't understand why people get all focused on fuel use. All boats are very fuel inefficient and even with having the speed option fuel costs are a small part of boat ownership. A GB is probably not any more seaworthy than a Sea Ray.

when we graduated from sail I was amazed how much faster 8 KTs was than the sail boat. I soon got used to it and found that 20 Kts was nice at time as well.
IMO you should really charter a GB32 in order to spend time on it. Your wife may form opinions about the suitability of the space for long term living. A few hours at the dock while in boat buying lust is just not enough time to fully appreciate what living aboard entails.

There are charter companies in SW Florida that have GB boats and are in an excellent area to have an ICW and off shore experience.

 

[FF]

"Is having double the engine maintenance and roughly 150% of the fuel burn during all of the hours.

Fair enough point about my scale but at displacement speeds twins seem like an unnecessary inefficiency in this size range"

Your estimate , if for a displacement boat , of fuel burn is WAY off at displacement speeds.

It takes about 3 HP to push a ton of boat (2240lbs) while cruising , with about 15HP coming from each gallon of diesel.

15-20% is the normal extra fuel burn at the same speed.The price is the cost of rotating the machinery , 2x as many pistons etc.

A 20 ton boat will need 60 hp , maybe 3gph which doesn't change much of made by rational sized engine , 1 or 2.

The maint bill will be 2x higher as will the hours in the hell hole replacing wore out stuff like sea impellers,packing stuffing boxes and rubber belts.

The damage on a twin can be substantial if running aground , far less hassle with most singles.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

I should have known better than to introduce the topic of single vs twin. Like Israel and Palestine lol. Next I’ll post about anchor types.

SoWhat my comment wasn’t entirely about $, I was thinking about your points as well. I will surrender on my poor estimate of increased fuel usage at displacement speeds - displacement MY are not my area of experience, planing go fast boats are. The experience and expertise on this forum is always impressive.

I’ll sum up by asking more generally double the trouble for double the utility? I don’t think so and people coming into the market should check their assumptions. What do you want twins for? Those builders who are still making new 30-50’ slow speed boats for the market - “trawlers” - are they selling singles or twins, and why?

For me twins at work, single for recreation.

 

[jgreene69]

Hi Jim,

Glad to hear you're still in the hunt!

 

[koliver]

I should have known better than to introduce the topic of single vs twin. Like Israel and Palestine lol. Next I’ll post about anchor types.

SoWhat my comment wasn’t entirely about $, I was thinking about your points as well. I will surrender on my poor estimate of increased fuel usage at displacement speeds - displacement MY are not my area of experience, planing go fast boats are. The experience and expertise on this forum is always impressive.

I’ll sum up by asking more generally double the trouble for double the utility? I don’t think so and people coming into the market should check their assumptions. What do you want twins for? Those builders who are still making new 30-50’ slow speed boats for the market - “trawlers” - are they selling singles or twins, and why?

For me twins at work, single for recreation.

As the OP is looking for a smaller trawler, 32' to 36', singles will be in the running, as many ER squeezes in that size range have little room to maintain even a single, so getting around a pair is next to impossible. If manufacturers had a pair of small twins instead of a single twice the size, there would be a reasonable debate, but that is not how the market works. Most offer a single or a pair of the same engines, doubling everything and halving the space.
In larger boats, 40 and up, there is lots of room in the ER and twins will shine. Extra maneuverability, redundancy, no loss of a boating vacation if there is trouble with one, more power if it is needed, etc.

 

[Gouchergal]

Jim, we too just graduated from 30 years of sailing to a trawler! We're in Narragansett Bay in RI and decided on the Mainship 40. Although it was more than our budget, we just loved the interior with dining tables and stools!
We find that we use it more like a summer cottage, probably more than we should! But it's so darn comfortable!
Good luck with your search and definitely let us know how you make out.
Sincerely,
Gouchergal

 

[markpierce]

This cannot be understated. I have a similar design boat in a 34 Californian with twins but the fishtailing in following seas can be demanding. You have to know your boat and 'predict' the forces that you need to counteract the yawing force. It's all in the rudder control. It's like flying an airplane. In a narrow channel with a following sea, you just need to know how to even out the forces.

Mine took some practice to get down.

My old wheelpilot AP could never keep up. It's a good workout for an hour or two.

Even with my "barn door" rudder, steering with significant following seas can be a challenge. Need to "fly" by the seat of your pants, anticipating the waves' actions. Someone managing, but almost "lost" it moments later: