Fuel

[friz]

The thread is 18 pages long. Post #312 is on page 16.Ted

This thread was started by FWT and has 30 posts on 2 pages. I believe you are referring to a different thread/post. I was asking about your post #6 of the 19th. Curious about your John Deere. I saw a Ad a few years ago for a V6 Deere with over 300 HP. Sounded impressive but so did the price.

 

[backinblue]

See post #28 in this thread directing you to the correct thread for post #312

 

[O C Diver]

This thread was started by FWT and has 30 posts on 2 pages. I believe you are referring to a different thread/post. I was asking about your post #6 of the 19th. Curious about your John Deere. I saw a Ad a few years ago for a V6 Deere with over 300 HP. Sounded impressive but so did the price.

Click on the link in the below quote and look at posts #9 and #312.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s32/my-short-haul-refit-19105.html

See post #9 and #312.

Ted

Ted

 

[friz]

Click on the link in the below quote and look at posts #9 and #312.Ted

Much better.

 

[Simi 60]

Probably less the cost and more the percentage of increase. From November of 2020 to this summer, I'm expecting fuel to triple or quadruple.

If you were cruising several to maybe 10,000 miles a year, I imagine you would be grumbling about the the percentage of increase also.

Ted

Fuel price has risen near 60% here since cheapest covid price in 2020
And 25% since 2019 pre covid


We do several thousand miles a year
It has gone up enough for it to be noticeable but I can't control the prices so........

 

[Gotwex]

Like my Grandpa always said "Don't bitch about the price of matches when you're smoking cigars!"

 

[fgarriso]

This is an older chart using inflation adjusted gasoline prices they really don’t seem to change that much. And I’m old enough to remember buying gas for under $.50 a gallon

I can remember when it just 2 bits a gallon.

 

[SteveK]

Probably less the cost and more the percentage of increase. From November of 2020 to this summer, I'm expecting fuel to triple or quadruple.

View attachment 126200

If you were cruising several to maybe 10,000 miles a year, I imagine you would be grumbling about the the percentage of increase also.

Ted

In 2020 the USA was self sufficient with oil, did not have to buy any offshore. What happened? If you are making all you use what drives up the cost beyond inflation? California is going electric so there should be a steady rise to a surplus.

 

[Comodave]

When I was in high school in the Detroit area I wouldn’t buy gas if it was over 25 cents per gallon. But that was indeed a while ago…

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
"Some" years ago whilst courting my bride all I had for a Sunday ride was $1.16. Drove for most of the day in my 1959 VW Beetle.

 

[Simi 60]

Greetings,
"Some" years ago whilst courting my bride all I had for a Sunday ride was $1.16. Drove for most of the day in my 1959 VW Beetle.

I remember as a 2nd year apprentice in the 80"s putting petrol in the car to drive the 35 miles to work and paying for it with a sock full of 1 and 2c pieces

 

[rslifkin]

In 2020 the USA was self sufficient with oil, did not have to buy any offshore. What happened? If you are making all you use what drives up the cost beyond inflation? California is going electric so there should be a steady rise to a surplus.

A few factors. 2020 was an anomaly in recent years due to much lower than normal demand. But even when we can produce enough oil to cover our needs, it's still traded as a global commodity, so global supply / demand and other factors still impact prices. Cutting off from the global markets would solve that, but then you lose the ability to sell excess easily or buy some when you need it.

 

[backinblue]

Greetings,
"Some" years ago whilst courting my bride all I had for a Sunday ride was $1.16. Drove for most of the day in my 1959 VW Beetle.

When I was a teen I remember a friend who drove an enormous caddy convertible. One day we all pooled our pocket change so he could buy gas and we could drive around for a few hours. I think the group of us came up with about $0.90, but it was still worth a trip to the local gas station to buy a few gallons.

 

[backinblue]

In 2020 the USA was self sufficient with oil, did not have to buy any offshore. What happened? If you are making all you use what drives up the cost beyond inflation? California is going electric so there should be a steady rise to a surplus.

First of all, we are no longer energy independant, that changed a couple years ago. Also, new domestic oil production is only profitable above a certain price point, somewhere in the neighborhood of $50/barrel. But it's a global market, so price will be based on global supply and demand. U.S. companies would rather export oil at $100 than sell it domestically at $50. Still the U.S. is in a much better strategic position when we are independent and can supply fuel to our friends rather than buy it from our enemies. I don't know the stats on electric cars, but I suspect they have minimal impact at this point. Maybe in the future as a greater % of vehicles go electric. Just remember that electric cars, though more efficient, still use energy. A lot of the cost of electricity is in transmission and distribution, so supplying electricity to all the vehicles in the country, is not trivial.

 

[O C Diver]

First of all, we are no longer energy independant, that changed a couple years ago. Also, new domestic oil production is only profitable above a certain price point, somewhere in the neighborhood of $50/barrel. But it's a global market, so price will be based on global supply and demand. U.S. companies would rather export oil at $100 than sell it domestically at $50. Still the U.S. is in a much better strategic position when we are independent and can supply fuel to our friends rather than buy it from our enemies. I don't know the stats on electric cars, but I suspect they have minimal impact at this point. Maybe in the future as a greater % of vehicles go electric. Just remember that electric cars, though more efficient, still use energy. A lot of the cost of electricity is in transmission and distribution, so supplying electricity to all the vehicles in the country, is not trivial.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of American oil is sold outside the USA. Seems to me that import duties were put in place or raised during the last administration against China. I see no reason export duties or tariffs couldn't / shouldn't be in play for oil exports. Certainly little to no tariff for are True allies, but significant duties should apply to our adversaries.

Ted

 

[backinblue]

Ted I don't disagree, but at the risk of saying anything that could be perceived as political, I won't comment. I will say that whatever price you pay at any pump in any location is subject to federal, state, and local taxes, as well as any tarrifs. We may see some of those taxes temporarilly suspended, but that's a band-aid more than a solution.

 

[SteveK]

Ask Google.

In 2021, Russia accounted for 21% of all U.S. gasoline imports

Pump prices will keep rising due to the sanctions against Russia invading Ukraine.
Time to fill those tanks.

In 2021, the United States returned to importing more petroleum (which includes crude oil, refined petroleum products, and other liquids) than it exports following its historic shift to being a net exporter of petroleum in 2020, according to the US Energy Information Administration (EIA). According to EIA’s February 2022 Short-Term Energy Outlook (STEO), net crude oil imports will increase, making the United States a net importer of petroleum in 2022.

 

[backinblue]

Ask Google.

Pump prices will keep rising due to the sanctions against Russia invading Ukraine.
Time to fill those tanks.

Seems like it would be a no-brainer to ramp up domestic production rather than buying from the Russians at the same time we are imposing economic sanctions against them. Makes no common sense, but what do I know.

 

[rslifkin]

Seems like it would be a no-brainer to ramp up domestic production rather than buying from the Russians at the same time we are imposing economic sanctions against them. Makes no common sense, but what do I know.

I expect that will happen. But in most cases there's a limit to how quickly production can be increased (domestic or otherwise). So even if things can catch up, it'll take time for it to all settle out.

 

[Lostsailor13]

My tanks are filled at 500 gallons,one of the benefits of leaving the boat in all winter it’s the cheapest time to fill your tanks,and instead of burning my onboard fuel for heat been lumping between 5 and 10 gallons a week for my Dickinson and Chinese diesel heater

 

[Johnboyrtw]

Though I agree that fuel costs are generally not a major percentage of total spend, I don't agree that fuel costs don't matter. There is a price that causes people to change their thinking and change their habits. I don't know if that's $4, $5, $10, etc, but eventually it causes a change. It means boaters will think about the cost of taking a long cruise. It may make people re-think going from sail to power (as many of them worry about fuel expenses regardless of the price). Some may re-think starting a new build, not knowing what fuel costs will be 2 years from now. Used boat prices will sink if the market for buyers dries up. Regardless of what it means to you right now personally, it's not good for the power-boating community or industry if fuel costs continue to rise dramatically.

I Have a Gb’s 42 with cat 3208’s 375hp and I am definitely changing the way I cruise this season. I have been experimenting with cruising on one engine at around 7.5 kts. At that speed its about 1400rpm and a fuel burn around 3.5 gal/hr. With both engines at that rpm I can get 8.5kts, but now its double the fuel burn. Will use two engines for docking, inlets,etc. but I am now going to cruise on one engine. Will alternate engines every 3 or 4 hours to lubricate the engine that was off.
Has anyone else done this?

 

[rslifkin]

I Have a Gb’s 42 with cat 3208’s 375hp and I am definitely changing the way I cruise this season. I have been experimenting with cruising on one engine at around 7.5 kts. At that speed its about 1400rpm and a fuel burn around 3.5 gal/hr. With both engines at that rpm I can get 8.5kts, but now its double the fuel burn. Will use two engines for docking, inlets,etc. but I am now going to cruise on one engine. Will alternate engines every 3 or 4 hours to lubricate the engine that was off.
Has anyone else done this?

Try running at 7 - 7.5 kts with both engines (at lower RPM). I bet your total fuel burn will be very close to the single engine burn, but with better maneuverability. Unless the increased engine load causes a significant efficiency increase, the lower prop efficiency from putting your power through 1/2 the blade area, plus dragging the dead prop, the bit of drag from rudder angle to keep the boat straight, etc. typically eats most of the gains from shutting down 1 engine.

 

[mcarthur]

I haven't done any personal tests.
However, there are reports of quite a few others on this and other sites who have tested on their particular boats.
The general result seems to be that, if the speed is a decent % of hull speed like a 0.8-1.0 multiplier rather 1.34, one engine would use noticeably less fuel than two engines.
There's some assumption that the gearbox can handle a freewheeling prop, as there's "likely" ("certainty" based on some research) that locking the prop will increase consumption. The hull shape and separation distance between the props also plays a part, as the rudder may need to be used to go straight. Do they increase consumption equal to two engines? That probably depends on the boat, wave & wind direction and speed, etc. etc.

 

[markpierce]

My four fuel tanks are full, enough to last the rest of my boating life.

 

[phillippeterson]

I haven't done any personal tests.
However, there are reports of quite a few others on this and other sites who have tested on their particular boats.
The general result seems to be that, if the speed is a decent % of hull speed like a 0.8-1.0 multiplier rather 1.34, one engine would use noticeably less fuel than two engines.
There's some assumption that the gearbox can handle a freewheeling prop, as there's "likely" ("certainty" based on some research) that locking the prop will increase consumption. The hull shape and separation distance between the props also plays a part, as the rudder may need to be used to go straight. Do they increase consumption equal to two engines? That probably depends on the boat, wave & wind direction and speed, etc. etc.

A freewheeling prop creates more drag than a locked prop.

 

[kthoennes]

I know where I'll be on the fuel table this coming season:

 

[FWT]

Bloomberg and others are reporting diesel inventories are at deep lows. They are opining that shortage of supply looms.

Buy when you can, not when you have to.

Surprising to me is I learn east coast refinery capacity is about half of where it was as recently as 2009. Its not just about crude supply.

 

[backinblue]

Bloomberg and others are reporting diesel inventories are at deep lows. They are opining that shortage of supply looms.

Buy when you can, not when you have to.

Surprising to me is I learn east coast refinery capacity is about half of where it was as recently as 2009. Its not just about crude supply.

I saw a news report recently that diesel prices are at an all-time high, up about 25 cents in the past week. Well over $5/gal at local fuel docks here.

 

[FWT]

Price is one thing. Lack of availability is another that I would consider to be of greater concern.

 

[mcarthur]

A freewheeling prop creates more drag than a locked prop.

Sigh. LOTS of examples of people trying it out - here's just one from the reputable Main sail showing freewheeling is less drag.

There are lots of other factors other than the fact that for most common boats/props/situations then freewheeling is less draggy - can your gearbox handle it, can your stuffing box or equivalent get enough of whatever it need for friction purposes (water from other engine, etc), does the boat shape and width mean that the drag from rudders to overcome the single engine is too much, etc.