First Boat Confusion - Insurance & Boat Length Help

[surge]

Hey all,

New to the forum and looking for some feedback from real people. My wife and I are moving from a motorhome (already sold) and looking to get on the water. Been talking about it over a year and set a goal of getting a boat end of 2024.

We've done our ASA sailing certs on a 42ft Catamaran in December as our two favorite boats are cats and trawlers. (Leopard cat and Selene trawler being our wish boats). We loved doing the class, it was a week long live abord class in USVI, and we plan on doing a trawler school as well (also a week on a Selene is PNW). And doing some bareboat charters to test out boats we're interested and build resume.

Our issue is that the cat's beam and complexities of dockage, fees, haul-outs etc. So we're leaning more towards a trawler for first boat to make this easier and learn the nuances on a powered boat (smaller beam). We can use the great loop, or parts of it, etc. We both work remote and I sometimes need to fly so it's a good starting point for us. Our ideal boat size is 45ft give or take. But understand our first boat may need to be smaller and we'd like to go in cheaper to learn on before buying our ideal long term boat.

To get to the point, we've seen and heard countless times that new boat owners can't get insurance. I've left messages with 3 insurance brokers waiting for call backs. The receptionist at one said typically their policies require 1 year with a Captain if we tried to buy a 45ft boat... like what? I could see 20-40 hours required, but that's crazy for a 45ft boat. I see constant posts on this, both here and other forums about a 10ft rule and moving up 10ft. But nobody is saying what that first boat size is to start with? Can I start on a 35ft boat? then jump up 10ft after a year or so? Is it 30ft to start? This is making it much harder to narrow down scope of boats I'm interesting in for a starter.

So looking for any feedback on this. As of now, I've only chartered some pontoon and deck boats around Florida, and done our week long sailing course. So my resume is weak.

Thanks for any feedback.

 

[tiltrider1]

Starting with 45’ should be possible but won’t be easy. I recommend you call Peter Ricks at Novamar Insurance in Seattle. He has customers all over the world. He also worked as an underwriter in the past. He has deep connections in the insurance world. You will probably need 40 hours of training and a sign off from a captain approved by the insurance company. Peter can help you with this as well.

 

[surge]

Starting with 45’ should be possible but won’t be easy. I recommend you call Peter Ricks at Novamar Insurance in Seattle. He has customers all over the world. He also worked as an underwriter in the past. He has deep connections in the insurance world. You will probably need 40 hours of training and a sign off from a captain approved by the insurance company. Peter can help you with this as well.

Thank you, what a positive thing to hear! 40hrs doesn't seem bad. Not sure what rates the insurance company Captain would want, but I've seen $300-500 a day from 2 different Captains to train you on your boat. If that's the case, that's a fraction of the cost of going to a trawler school (like 8k+ travel) and this would be on our own boat.

I don't understand the 1yr thing. I'll find out if/when they call me back.

 

[STB]

When I went to buy my first boat, a 42' Californian, I got a lot of that. I walked into a State Farm office down the street and got a policy from them at a rate that was less than I was hearing others paying.

Technically speaking, I left with a 30 day binder, during which the underwriters sent over the actual long term policy.

From what I've seen, State Farm seems to provide coverage at a good rate, the ability to work with a personal umbrella, and reportedly settles claims fine.

But, what they reportedly don't do well is manage emergencies in the moment, e.g. arrange for salvors or towing services, etc. And, from what the local tow operator in my area says, unlike Progressive, GEICO, and some others, they have no business relationship with State Farm, so in the event of an emergency, the boat owner needs to pay them and getting reimbursed by State Farm is the boat pwner's problem.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[surge]

When I went to buy my first boat, a 42' Californian, I got a lot of that. I walked into a State Farm office down the street and got a policy from them at a rate that was less than I was hearing others paying.

Technically speaking, I left with a 30 day binder, during which the underwriters sent over the actual long term policy.

From what I've seen, State Farm seems to provide coverage at a good rate, the ability to work with a personal umbrella, and reportedly settles claims fine.

But, what they reportedly don't do well is manage emergencies in the moment, e.g. arrange for salvors or towing services, etc. And, from what the local tow operator in my area says, unlike Progressive, GEICO, and some others, they behave no business relationship with State Farm, so in the event of an emergency, the boat owner needs to pay them and getting reimbursed by State Farm is the boat pwner's problem.

Your mileage may vary.

When was this if you don't mind me asking? I know things have changed a lot in the last few years.

Was that a yacht policy, or just a boat policy? I keep reading and hearing (podcasts) that you want a yacht policy for a bigger boat that's not just going to be at a lake or something. So I figured SF, Geico, Progressive are all the same with just regular boat policies.

 

[STB]

In my case, that was almost 10 years ago. But, I've sent folks to them very recently with the same result.

I suspect that they know less about boats than marine specialist insurers in the statistical sense and make decisions giving more weight to one's broader insurance claim history, credit worthiness, etc, and fixed factors like size of boat, number of engines, diesel vs gas, zip code, marina vs private dock, etc.

I would recommend avoiding making any decision based upon whether the policy is called a boat policy or a yacht policy. You've got to read the coverage details. It isn't like car insurance.

For example, there can be restrictions w.r.t how you manage different classes of storms like hurricane, restrictions about where you can cruise and when, restrictions about where the boat can be and when, pollution coverage limits, all sorts of medical situations and limits, maronas as additional insured, etc. And there are also non-insurance services that are often bundled in, such as help responding to emergencies.

I, personally, trust State Farm to write checks later. I have, however, never known them to promise boaters anything but that.

If you aren't super confident that you understand the bundle of exposures, the scope of the financial responsibilities associated with each, the attendant risk at your home port and across your broader crusing ground, what restrictions make sense for you, what services beyond literal insurance you want bundled in, and how much risk you are willing to assume and impose upon others...

...you really want to talk to an experienced insurance broker or agent who specializes in these policies.

There is just soooooo much new. They'll know the questions you ahoukd be asking and can walk you through analyzing your needs in a systematic and organized way thst leaves you with a much better understanding of not only the insurance, but also the risks, and the ways you'll use your boat.

 

[Comodave]

Welcome aboard. First thing I would do is take as many classes as possible. Then call Peter Ricks at Novamar. He is great. 206-350-5051

 

[FWT]

I'll echo the endorsements of Peter Ricks. Top notch.

But what I'd add is this. Take the ego out of it. First year, first boat, and training aside your experience is less than others with years of experience. Can't help that because we all begin somewhere. It just is a fact. The risks are higher to the insurance company, but importantly are higher for you too.

The point is, everyone zooms in on cost. I get that. But getting the right COVERAGE of risk demands more focus. That's where a pro like Peter can really help. You want good coverage, even at a higher price. And it might not really cost you materially more. Later you can fine tune this when you know more, have the experience on your boat, and so forth.

Don't shop for insurance. Shop for the right expert in insurance. That's Peter.

Maybe two years ago I was at a boat show, and was wandering the vendor tents. As I approached a marine insurance table another guy was winding up a conversation and was walking away pretty heated. The insurance guy was shaking his head as the guy left. After a few minutes of more pleasant conversation he opened up about what just happened. A guy with a big checkbook but no experience was ready to stroke a check on a big flashy 50+ footer at the show for millions. The insurance guy told him he couldn't help him. That is what the insurance companies need to screen out.

That doesn't sound like you, who is making systematic efforts to prepare yourself, but your efforts are exactly the kind of case a good agent needs to absorb. A part of the equation has to be just willingness to listen and follow the paths the insurers lay out for their safety of money at risk, and your safety. Attitude. You obviously have it. But the agent still has people to convince up the food chain at the insurance companies. A good agent will work with you provided you work with him. None of us can know what the current state of the art is at insurance companies because its a constant moving target. He knows, and we don't. But he can tell you what is possible and what isn't. Start there before getting too deep into this.

 

[twistedtree]

Where will you be based? FL, for example, I expect will be a lot harder to get insurance.

 

[surge]

In my case, that was almost 10 years ago. But, I've sent folks to them very recently with the same result.

I suspect that they know less about boats than marine specialist insurers in the statistical sense and make decisions giving more weight to one's broader insurance claim history, credit worthiness, etc, and fixed factors like size of boat, number of engines, diesel vs gas, zip code, marina vs private dock, etc.

I would recommend avoiding making any decision based upon whether the policy is called a boat policy or a yacht policy. You've got to read the coverage details. It isn't like car insurance.

For example, there can be restrictions w.r.t how you manage different classes of storms like hurricane, restrictions about where you can cruise and when, restrictions about where the boat can be and when, pollution coverage limits, all sorts of medical situations and limits, maronas as additional insured, etc. And there are also non-insurance services that are often bundled in, such as help responding to emergencies.

I, personally, trust State Farm to write checks later. I have, however, never known them to promise boaters anything but that.

If you aren't super confident that you understand the bundle of exposures, the scope of the financial responsibilities associated with each, the attendant risk at your home port and across your broader crusing ground, what restrictions make sense for you, what services beyond literal insurance you want bundled in, and how much risk you are willing to assume and impose upon others...

...you really want to talk to an experienced insurance broker or agent who specializes in these policies.

There is just soooooo much new. They'll know the questions you ahoukd be asking and can walk you through analyzing your needs in a systematic and organized way thst leaves you with a much better understanding of not only the insurance, but also the risks, and the ways you'll use your boat.

I don't know what I don't know yet as that saying goes. As we should, I take things I read or watch on online with a grain of salt. I ask because I've heard of things like the marine pollution coverage, and a few other standouts that a "yacht" policy covers, but regular boat coverage won't. I'll start working on my questions list for the broker so I don't miss these things I've seen can be an issue. Thanks for the detailed reply.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

Personally, I think you should scale back your plans a bit. Forty-five feet is pretty big for a new boater, and expensive both to buy and operate.

Buy a nice used boat in the 36 foot range, something you can afford to purchase without a loan and just buy liability insurance. Couple hundred dollars a year. The liability will cover any damage to others and environment but you are pretty much on your own for the boat repairs.

Thirty six feet is so easy to learn on. Then determine if you want to go bigger.

pete

 

[surge]

I'll echo the endorsements of Peter Ricks. Top notch.

But what I'd add is this. Take the ego out of it. First year, first boat, and training aside your experience is less than others with years of experience. Can't help that because we all begin somewhere. It just is a fact. The risks are higher to the insurance company, but importantly are higher for you too.

The point is, everyone zooms in on cost. I get that. But getting the right COVERAGE of risk demands more focus. That's where a pro like Peter can really help. You want good coverage, even at a higher price. And it might not really cost you materially more. Later you can fine tune this when you know more, have the experience on your boat, and so forth.

Don't shop for insurance. Shop for the right expert in insurance. That's Peter.

Maybe two years ago I was at a boat show, and was wandering the vendor tents. As I approached a marine insurance table another guy was winding up a conversation and was walking away pretty heated. The insurance guy was shaking his head as the guy left. After a few minutes of more pleasant conversation he opened up about what just happened. A guy with a big checkbook but no experience was ready to stroke a check on a big flashy 50+ footer at the show for millions. The insurance guy told him he couldn't help him. That is what the insurance companies need to screen out.

That doesn't sound like you, who is making systematic efforts to prepare yourself, but your efforts are exactly the kind of case a good agent needs to absorb. A part of the equation has to be just willingness to listen and follow the paths the insurers lay out for their safety of money at risk, and your safety. Attitude. You obviously have it. But the agent still has people to convince up the food chain at the insurance companies. A good agent will work with you provided you work with him. None of us can know what the current state of the art is at insurance companies because its a constant moving target. He knows, and we don't. But he can tell you what is possible and what isn't. Start there before getting too deep into this.

I've heard about these credit card captains, and that's not our bag. The ASA courses were fully humbling in the sheer vastness of knowledge we didn't understand existed to safety navigate the waters. It's made us realize we have a steep hill to climb yet still to be successful boaters, and we got to put in the work to reach our goals. Monday I'll reach out to Peter.

Where will you be based? FL, for example, I expect will be a lot harder to get insurance.

Still working on this. We plan on keeping our house and coming back home for a few months here and there throughout the year for family reasons. We assumed Florida and Georgia are possibly out because of hurricane clauses to keep the boat farther north, like N.C.. Ideally we'd keep it in Georgia, or S.C. as that's the closest drive before being within Florida waters in the panhandle from a distance perspective. We do want to cruise Florida, but we don't have much interest in finding a miracle opening down there for dockage. Plus I keep seeing what you mentioned, keeping a boat there is going to make it much harder with the insurance game, so we're fine to skip.

 

[jgwinks]

When I went to buy my first boat, a 42' Californian, I got a lot of that. I walked into a State Farm office down the street and got a policy from them at a rate that was less than I was hearing others paying.

Technically speaking, I left with a 30 day binder, during which the underwriters sent over the actual long term policy.

From what I've seen, State Farm seems to provide coverage at a good rate, the ability to work with a personal umbrella, and reportedly settles claims fine.

But, what they reportedly don't do well is manage emergencies in the moment, e.g. arrange for salvors or towing services, etc. And, from what the local tow operator in my area says, unlike Progressive, GEICO, and some others, they have no business relationship with State Farm, so in the event of an emergency, the boat owner needs to pay them and getting reimbursed by State Farm is the boat pwner's problem.

Your mileage may vary.

I've been using Allstate with about the same experience. But since I hold a 200 Ton Master license, training was never an issue. I did have a major claim a couple years ago, they were great to work with.

 

[STB]

I don't know what I don't know yet as that saying goes. As we should, I take things I read or watch on online with a grain of salt. I ask because I've heard of things like the marine pollution coverage, and a few other standouts that a "yacht" policy covers, but regular boat coverage won't. I'll start working on my questions list for the broker so I don't miss these things I've seen can be an issue. Thanks for the detailed reply.

State Farm policies do, or at least can, cover pollution to the statutory limit of liability. Stay focused on the coverages and additional services not the labels. I say, at the least.

 

[surge]

Personally, I think you should scale back your plans a bit. Forty-five feet is pretty big for a new boater, and expensive both to buy and operate.

Buy a nice used boat in the 36 foot range, something you can afford to purchase without a loan and just buy liability insurance. Couple hundred dollars a year. The liability will cover any damage to others and environment but you are pretty much on your own for the boat repairs.

Thirty six feet is so easy to learn on. Then determine if you want to go bigger.

pete

I've looked at several boats in this range, and looks very doable, so we're fine to go down this path too and move up. Trying to find that hard line to make this easier you know, was it 35, or 36-38, etc. Thanks for the feedback.

Some of the reasons I like that 45ft range is there's more separation and space, as we both work (no kids). More storage for being out longer and we'd like a washing machine (had one on the RV, game changer). Also twin screws and room to get around in the engine bay. I'm very mechanically inclined and still able bodied, so I'd like to be able to do stuff myself so I can learn the systems. Some of those smaller boats look a bit challenging to access them. But we're okay with compromising to build our resume.

 

[STB]

Personally, when considering 36-45ft boats, I'd focus .ore on visibility than size. There are some 36dt boats where I can't see the back from th helm and some 45ft boats where I have 360 degree visibility. That makes more of a difference to me than a few feet, even a large few.

 

[Larry M]

..
We assumed Florida and Georgia are possibly out because of hurricane clauses to keep the boat farther north, like N.C.. Ideally we'd keep it in Georgia, or S.C. as that's the closest drive before being within Florida waters in the panhandle from a distance perspective. We do want to cruise Florida…

Brunswick Landing Marina in South Georgia, has many boats escaping Florida’s seasonal hurricane restrictions. Historically you needed to be north of 31 degrees by June 1, if I remember right, by many insurance companies for lower rates.

 

[O C Diver]

Brunswick Landing Marina in South Georgia, has many boats escaping Florida’s seasonal hurricane restrictions. Historically you needed to be north of 31 degrees by June 1, if I remember right, by many insurance companies for lower rates.

The line for some has moved further North. For Chubb, it's been Savannah, GA for a few years.

Ted

 

[Bmarler]

I've looked at several boats in this range, and looks very doable, so we're fine to go down this path too and move up. Trying to find that hard line to make this easier you know, was it 35, or 36-38, etc. Thanks for the feedback.

Some of the reasons I like that 45ft range is there's more separation and space, as we both work (no kids). More storage for being out longer and we'd like a washing machine (had one on the RV, game changer). Also twin screws and room to get around in the engine bay. I'm very mechanically inclined and still able bodied, so I'd like to be able to do stuff myself so I can learn the systems. Some of those smaller boats look a bit challenging to access them. But we're okay with compromising to build our resume.

I found the 40 foot raised pilothouse to be the sweet spot. Just two of us on board, plenty of storage, pilothouse can double as an office as long as you’re careful not to clutter it up. Many this size have a small laundry area. We don’t, but don’t miss it.

 

[PierreR]

Until you try, you have no idea what insurance availability and costs will be. I'm a case in point. I was jumping from a 26' boat that I built and owned for 22 years in the Great Lakes. I was jumping to a 42' boat that was on the lower end of the price range, the boat was in Lake Pontchatrain and I wanted to bring the boat back to the Cleveland Ohio area on it's own bottom via Gulf coast, Florida, AICW, New York, Hudson river and Eric Canal. I wanted hull coverage at agreed value if possible. I attached what I thought was relevant for experience and went with a Marine Insurance Broker suggested by AGLCA.
I had an offer accepted on my boat contingent on survey and acceptable insurance.
The insurance quote came back with a huge acceptable cruising area including 125nm off shore, full coverage, few restrictions and no required training all at 1/4 the expected price. Too good to be true I called looking for the deal killer. The insurance quote was real and decent. I asked why so low. My agent told me. You have owned boats for 40 years, have a fully paid dirt home, built two boats insured with this company, a perfect credit rating, no MV tickets, an existing umbrella policy with this company, no claims history and the boat you are buying. It all adds up to low risk.

Bottom line, you don't know what is required until you get quotes back. Speculation is nothing. Insurance markets change all the time. My policy went up 7% this year.

 

[surge]

Personally, when considering 36-45ft boats, I'd focus .ore on visibility than size. There are some 36dt boats where I can't see the back from th helm and some 45ft boats where I have 360 degree visibility. That makes more of a difference to me than a few feet, even a large few.

I agree, that's one thing we loved about the cat we were on. It was a 42 Lagoon and you could see all 4 corners from the raised helm. This is a top priority is visibility for us.

Brunswick Landing Marina in South Georgia, has many boats escaping Florida’s seasonal hurricane restrictions. Historically you needed to be north of 31 degrees by June 1, if I remember right, by many insurance companies for lower rates.

The line for some has moved further North. For Chubb, it's been Savannah, GA for a few years.

Ted

We've seen a few references to 31, or 31.5N, which looks well south of Savannah, but I thought we heard even more north, but that's an insurance question that we're eager to hear among other things to discuss. I'm good with Savannah or higher. Plenty of options.

 

[surge]

Until you try, you have no idea what insurance availability and costs will be. I'm a case in point. I was jumping from a 26' boat that I built and owned for 22 years in the Great Lakes. I was jumping to a 42' boat that was on the lower end of the price range, the boat was in Lake Pontchatrain and I wanted to bring the boat back to the Cleveland Ohio area on it's own bottom via Gulf coast, Florida, AICW, New York, Hudson river and Eric Canal. I wanted hull coverage at agreed value if possible. I attached what I thought was relevant for experience and went with a Marine Insurance Broker suggested by AGLCA.
I had an offer accepted on my boat contingent on survey and acceptable insurance.
The insurance quote came back with a huge acceptable cruising area including 125nm off shore, full coverage, few restrictions and no required training all at 1/4 the expected price. Too good to be true I called looking for the deal killer. The insurance quote was real and decent. I asked why so low. My agent told me. You have owned boats for 40 years, have a fully paid dirt home, built two boats insured with this company, a perfect credit rating, no MV tickets, an existing umbrella policy with this company, no claims history and the boat you are buying. It all adds up to low risk.

Bottom line, you don't know what is required until you get quotes back. Speculation is nothing. Insurance markets change all the time. My policy went up 7% this year.

Great to know. I'm trying to be optimistic, and generally I'm fine with paying to play, but when I heard 1yr with a Captain, well, that's just downright ridiculous. We're debt free and own our home outright, but not sure how much that really plays into their decision vs experience. Thanks for giving us some good feedback and hope.

 

[fgarriso]

You don't need a year with a captain, but a trawler is different than a sail boat. You have more weight to deal with, and less visibility when docking. Do a week with a captain on the boat you are buying and just add it in to your start up budget. It will be the best $2500 you can spend. I know you will benefit from it.

 

[surge]

You don't need a year with a captain, but a trawler is different than a sail boat. You have more weight to deal with, and less visibility when docking. Do a week with a captain on the boat you are buying and just add it in to your start up budget. It will be the best $2500 you can spend. I know you will benefit from it.

We definitely want it as well, we understand we still have a ton to learn, and want it, but at the same time, shelling out 8-10k for training and 4-8k for a week or bareboat chartering adds up quick.

We just got a quote back for a week long trawler training in PNW for 10k for boat and captain. Almost 2k higher than we got last summer.

Someone mentioned the insurance company may dictate you use their chosen captain for training is that accurate? It would be nice to find one we'd like to use on our own vs what they may force.

 

[Action]

Not sure you answered the question about your location.

Here is school in Florida. Which may be closer than the PNW

https://www.swfyachts.com/cruising-school

Call them as there are so many different options.

 

[mvweebles]

Someone mentioned the insurance company may dictate you use their chosen captain for training is that accurate? It would be nice to find one we'd like to use on our own vs what they may force.

When I was delivering over 20 years ago, I did a handful of insurance-required sign off trainings. I put together a curriculum for the insurance company(s) and they were fine as long as I signed off competence for each module. Unfortunately, my curriculum syllabus is long lost, but wasn't too complicated.

Bottom line is while my experience was a long time ago, my guess is the insurance company won't specify a captain, but will be most interested that the captain have experience teaching. A teaching methodology goes a long way.

Day rates for decent captains seems to be in the $450-$550 range. $10k for a week sounds a bit steep, though perhaps it's because they providing the boat?

Peter

 

[surge]

Not sure you answered the question about your location.

Here is school in Florida. Which may be closer than the PNW

https://www.swfyachts.com/cruising-school

Call them as there are so many different options.

We're in GA, and wanting to establish a base here, or possibly in S.C.

I'll check them out, as we will probably want to try and charter a few boats we're the most interested in. I found this site also somewhere on these forums I think:
https://chitwood-charters.com/ All GB boats looks like.

When I was delivering over 20 years ago, I did a handful of insurance-required sign off trainings. I put together a curriculum for the insurance company(s) and they were fine as long as I signed off competence for each module. Unfortunately, my curriculum syllabus is long lost, but wasn't too complicated.

Bottom line is while my experience was a long time ago, my guess is the insurance company won't specify a captain, but will be most interested that the captain have experience teaching. A teaching methodology goes a long way.

Day rates for decent captains seems to be in the $450-$550 range. $10k for a week sounds a bit steep, though perhaps it's because they providing the boat?

Peter

Yea, 10k total for training modules, instructor, and boat. We have family in Washington, so we have a place to stay for a few days as needed, but flights are still pricey out there.

That'll be great if they don't require a Captain they specify, I'd like to find a good instructor that connects well with my wife, as we want to make sure she gets equal training and confidence.

 

[Omikeoreilly]

A Brilliant broker on this site guided me to Chubb. A Master Plan policy. I too was a new owner of a 42 GB.

 

[PierreR]

We're in GA, and wanting to establish a base here, or possibly in S.C.

You can get from the Gulf of Mexico all the way up the Apalachicola River to Columbus GA. There are marinas.

I myself would not go any further with training until you know what is expected of you with an insurance company. Put your money towards a known end goal.

Insurance companies put a lot of weight in home ownership, credit ratings, driving records and past claim history.

 

[Comodave]

There have been some suggestions on what size boat to buy. I always tell people if they are going to only own a couple of boats to buy the last boat first. We have owned 24 boats as of now and trading boats is seldom a money maker. Decide what size and type you want by looking at lots of boats. Then buy what you want and spend adequate time learning how to properly handle the boat. If you buy a smaller boat to learn on you will loose a lot of money trading up to the boat you really want. Just get a captain to teach you how to run it. Then spend some time in protected waters practicing. And gradually work your way up to more challenging situations. You will be way ahead in the long run and actually have the boat you want.