Fatigue Led to Sinking

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

We saw this boat in Wrangell

https://gcaptain.com/captains-fatig...139820873&mc_cid=da95134926&mc_eid=5b70bcca05.

So how many of us cruisers have water tight t bulkhead doors?

 

[ancora]

No mention of drug testing?

 

[High Wire]

Better not watch Deadliest Catch.

 

[kthoennes]

...So how many of us cruisers have water tight t bulkhead doors?

Heck, I've got large and multiple limber holes in the stringers of my boat so bilge water drains to the lowest point to be pumped overboard. If I put watertight hatches in the aft and forward berth doorways, the water would just run under my feet.

 

[Benthic2]

I think the moral of the story is use your alarms, not to have water tight compartments. If his watch alarm or his off course alarm were activated the need for watertight compartments would have been necessary.

 

[Comodave]

Watching Deadliest Catch is something to think about. In my younger days I could go 48 hours without sleep but as you get older not so easy to do. And the captains are usually older and alone in the wheelhouse. Not to use the watch alarm and cross track alarm is just plain dumb.

 

[CharlieO.]

Happens often, I don't remember any of my captains using the watch alarm but made sure the crew did.
I remember seeing a boat in Seward that had the bow caved in like an accordian. Was told someone fell asleep on watch and ran into a rock wall.

Usually after days of hard work, they put the exhausted green horn on first watch. They never forget that waking up

 

[psneeld]

Lots of fishermen have wound up on the rocks/beach falling asleep on the way to market. Not always the captain. I know I helped pull a few off the beach.

If anyone thinks they are safe, and that is the important concept here, now or in their younger years going more than about 30 hours without any sleep is just wrong....

There is ton of research that proves it wrong.....especially aviation studies..... unless you are in the one percent of human unusual specimens or you catch micro naps along the way...which isn't best for those on watch 100% of the time....it would be like being legally intoxicated.

In fact many drunk driving accidents are from fatigue as much or more so than alcohol.

 

[OldDan1943]

I think the moral of the story is use your alarms, not to have water tight compartments. If his watch alarm or his off course alarm were activated the need for watertight compartments would have been necessary.

I am old and very hard of hearing. Those little buzzer would be of no benefit.
I do have a 5 inch fire bell hooked to the high water but will not use that because of the confusion. I need at least 2 more and different sounding alarms.

 

[psneeld]

The on watch alarm isn't too loud, but if not acknowledged....usually the following siren wakes the whole crew.

The off course alarm might be any volume.....

 

[Hippocampus]

I’m board certified in sleep medicine. Micro naps don’t achieve significant improvement. They do not notably change the risk. Everyone will have sleep intrusions if sufficiently sleep deprived. Many believe sleep intrusions are the source of much sailors mythology such as mermaids. On single handed passages have also had delusions such as hearing music in wake produced noise, seeing people or object in clouds and the like. In talking with other long haul single handed sailors this is a extremely common occurrence.
Both REM (dreaming) intrusions and slow wave sleep occur but it’s the REM that’s interpreted as hallucinations whereas the delusions are more likely to occur when not fully asleep (stage 1).
Sleep deprivation is every bit as dangerous as drunk driving. Hence the restrictions on truckers and pilots.
You build sleep and REM pressure the longer you are up until sleep intrusions are obligate. Your first sleep period after significant sleep deprivation is abnormal in sleep architecture. This is why some people wake up after that recovery sleep and still process poorly. Also your hormonal balance is disturbed. The second night after the initial period of sleep deprivation is normal or nearly normal. So it’s three days to get back to baseline. Hence the call schedules for interns and residents was changed to reflect that state of affairs. Different people have different sleep efficacy and requirements . Most people think they need less sleep than they really do. Overwhelming majority require 7-8 hours. The bell curve rises and falls quickly with very few outliers. Most of America is sleep deprived to some degree. Many have poor sleep hygiene.
On a boat I make sure each crew has at least one 8 hour period off watch per 24 h. If short handed most peoples performance isn’t severely degraded by having two instead of one sleep period. But sufficient time should be allowed for several sleep cycles ( stage 1 then 2 then slow wave with sufficient intermittent REM) in one of those periods. Have found for most crew a 6 h sleep period ( I ensure they actually go to their berth) and a second siesta of several hours is sufficient to keep them cheerful and alert for days on end
. You cannot bank sleep at all. Discipline about sleep is every bit as important as adequate hydration or other physical needs. So I no longer do single handed passages. Have been taking on crew when required.

 

[Tuttouomo]

Mr. HC, thanks for the information. Well said, and I love my sleep rest.

Bill

 

[BandB]

Overwhelming majority require 7-8 hours. The bell curve rises and falls quickly with very few outliers. Most of America is sleep deprived to some degree. Many have poor sleep hygiene.
On a boat I make sure each crew has at least one 8 hour period off watch per 24 h. If short handed most peoples performance isn’t severely degraded by having two instead of one sleep period. But sufficient time should be allowed for several sleep cycles ( stage 1 then 2 then slow wave with sufficient intermittent REM) in one of those periods. Have found for most crew a 6 h sleep period ( I ensure they actually go to their berth) and a second siesta of several hours is sufficient to keep them cheerful and alert for days on end
. You cannot bank sleep at all. Discipline about sleep is every bit as important as adequate hydration or other physical needs. So I no longer do single handed passages. Have been taking on crew when required.

We do similar. STCW 2010 says:

A minimum of 10 hours of rest in any 24-hour period. The hours of rest may be divided into no more than two periods, one of which shall be at least 6 hours in length, and the intervals between consecutive periods of rest shall not exceed 14 hours.

We go further, as you do, requiring one of the rest periods at least 8 hours.

Even if these rules don't apply to you, they're good to follow.

 

[OldDan1943]

One one submarine it was 6 on 12 off. Allowed for a couple hours for performance of maintenance. The second was 4 on 8 off and dogging the watch on Sunday. I never got used to that.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

I have been on 6 hr on, 6 hr off , at sea routine for many years... Standard tug routine. Been doing it for the better part of 40 years.. The older I get, the harder it gets.. Your never going to get 6 hrs "sleep" on your off watch... Boat evolutions make many much longer days... Making and breaking tow, engine room or crew issues.... After a 10 day or longer tow, I feel it. ...If we are working in NY harbor for days, I really feel..

 

[Art]

40' Tolly tri cabin

Decade + ago. Three older persons aboard, cruising quickly, they were asleep... or so the story goes!!

 

[SteveK]

I am old and very hard of hearing. Those little buzzer would be of no benefit.
I do have a 5 inch fire bell hooked to the high water but will not use that because of the confusion. I need at least 2 more and different sounding alarms.

Dan, allow me to be the first to suggest an electric shock collar triggered by your safety features on board.

 

[OldDan1943]

You expect me to comment on where you wear it and how you used it?
Nope, not me.

 

[Wayfarer]

I have been on 6 hr on, 6 hr off , at sea routine for many years... Standard tug routine. Been doing it for the better part of 40 years.. The older I get, the harder it gets.. Your never going to get 6 hrs "sleep" on your off watch... Boat evolutions make many much longer days... Making and breaking tow, engine room or crew issues.... After a 10 day or longer tow, I feel it. ...If we are working in NY harbor for days, I really feel..

Ugh, 6 and 6 is the worst. I did three years of 30 day hitches on a tug and it was tough. By the end of my month, I was really ready to go home. If you try really hard, you might get four hours of sleep twice a day.

The chronic fatigue actually led me to a period of depression.

 

[psneeld]

Ugh, 6 and 6 is the worst. I did three years of 30 day hitches on a tug and it was tough. By the end of my month, I was really ready to go home. If you try really hard, you might get four hours of sleep twice a day.

The chronic fatigue actually led me to a period of depression.

Immediate fatigue is ugly enough...chronic fatigue is mind boggling.....literally.

Can say I don't miss the alarm to airborne on a dark and stormy in 20 minutes..... but the conditioning did help on those nights at anchor when the wind picked up and something didn't feel right from the comfort of a warm, dry bed.

 

[BandB]

Ugh, 6 and 6 is the worst. I did three years of 30 day hitches on a tug and it was tough. By the end of my month, I was really ready to go home. If you try really hard, you might get four hours of sleep twice a day.

The chronic fatigue actually led me to a period of depression.

I never understood the 6 and 6 routine and the 4 and 4 is worse. If I only had two persons to captain, I'd go 8 and 8 or 12 and 12. Even with three teams, we either do 8 hour shifts or 4 on and 8 off.

 

[Hippocampus]

Have done a fair amount of double or in effect double due to having three aboard with one virtually live lumber.
Watch we used is 6s. Then split the “6 pack captains “ watch. On benign days during the split watch would dose right next to him. Given other crew was a better sailor than me felt either of us would wake up to a new noise o change in boat motion. That allows for at least a 8h off watch periodically and some productive sleep during the split watches. Did that for 12 days and again once because good crew got injured for 14 days. Wasn’t perky at land fall but wasn’t trashed either. Could remain alert and cheerful. Wasn’t that bad.

Been on call most of my adult life. Either first call but even more often second call if another doc or resident needed advice. By law unlike the past you can’t be on every other. But like firemen, some law enforcement and other on call groups it’s very common to either have interrupted sleep from phone calls or telemed or need to hit the ER for an hour or two. It’s brutal. Our response like so many others was to hire folks who were “hospitalists”. They had no clinic responsibilities just rotating hospital work. We remained second call but calls dropped to being daytime during usual clinic hours instead of middle of the night. Massive improvement.
If I have sufficient bodies like a modified Norwegian watch schedule. First ask crew if they’re morning larks or night owls. Second ensure 8 off/24 hours. Expect 6-7 h of sleep then as people need to take care of personal hygiene and other acts of daily living. Also try for a 3-4 h rotation of the schedule if it’s a short trip ((<8d) but a fixed schedule if longer as to maintain a circadian rhythm. Most endocrine activity is during sleep as well as immune and healing. Although males have decreasing less REM during adulthood (particularly after 50) you do work out your emotional baggage and consolidate memories during sleep. So the old saying you don’t need sleep when aged just isn’t true.
Sleep hygiene is very important to get adequate productive sleep. A lot of insomnia would respond to jus simple sleep hygiene methods.

 

[dathompson]

40' Tolly tri cabin

Decade + ago. Three older persons aboard, cruising quickly, they were asleep... or so the story goes!!

Funny you should post this story. We didn't see the accident, but the red bottom paint scuff on the log lasted quite awhile. This was literally in our friends front yard.... lol.