Faster trawler than just hull speed but seaworthiness?

[DDW]

I am also contemplating a “new boat”, but not sure which brand or model yet.
....
Still early in planning stages, but thinking 35’ to 45’ ?
Budget $200k, ....

Dreamer. 2x - 4x that budget maybe. Or 20 years old. Or 25-30'. For example a new 39' AT or NT is going to be only a little shy of $1M ready to cruise.

 

[SteveK]

Ahh, using sailboater math. You leave early, see 7+ knots often, the power boaters go by you at 10:00 AM waking you sending stuff flying. You do 40 miles berth to berth in 8 hours, get there and fight for a slip, you're whipped and want to go to bed after sunset and the power boaters are partying. Ahh yes, sailboating is so relaxing with just the wind and the sea. Classic sailboater math.

Classic trawler math begins at the same time in the morning but getting away from the dock is faster as there is less to do. Once clear of the harbor the trawler sets the course at 8 knots, puts the boat on autopilot and has breakfast in the flying bridge. Boat is not heeled so it like being at home. You get to the harbor entrance in under 5 hours and are berthed within 15 minutes. Plug the power in, connect the hose and talk to your neighbors by 2 pm. Half of the sailboaters won't talk to you because you must have been one of the SOB's that waked them but good on the way to port, then took the good spots and will keep them awake when they want to go to sleep.

I saw many days in the 50-60 mile range. I even did Cape May NJ to Sandy hook NJ just before sun up to just before sunset near the end of May (124 miles) All at 8 knos or less.

On my boat. 7.3 knots= 3 gph. 8.5knots= 6.5 gph and 9.3 knots=13 gph

I was pleasantly surprised to learn what a difference there is in dispatch between sailboater math and powerboater math. Do you really need 12-15 knots to make the math work?

Former sailboater here just being devils advocate. A big boat is a big purchase. You want to be as sure as you can. There is definitely a boat out there for you but most people go through a couple of boats before they settle on what they really wanted.

Lots of good advice here in this thread by others.

Great post Pierre, it captures it all.

Also ex sail boater, been there, done that. Nothing wrong with a trawler doing sailboat speed. At sailboat/trawler speed the BIG difference is comfort, sit out in the weather always (sail), or have the choice CB or inside lower helm (power).
Never understood people that want the trawler designed for efficient hull speed travel to do more than hull speed on a regular basis. Forget the trawler, they make boats designed for double trawler speed at normal cruise.

BTW, what is the hull speed of a go fast 36 foot compared to a GB36, is the math different.

 

[rslifkin]

BTW, what is the hull speed of a go fast 36 foot compared to a GB36, is the math different.

Assuming equal waterline length, they'll have pretty much the same hull speed. Different hull shapes will have a different drag rise as you approach (and if possible exceed) hull speed though, so the "optimal" displacement cruise speed may be a bit different between them, although probably not by more than a 1/2 kt. In many cases, a faster boat ends up being comparable in hull efficiency at low speeds to a slow boat. The faster boat will have a hull shape that's less ideal at low speeds, but it'll also typically be lighter, which makes up a lot of that difference.

 

[ksanders]

OK...

15 knots is this power boaters limit to leave the dock in the open ocean.

Wimpish??? Maybe, but I'd rather be comfortable.

 

[mvweebles]

I agree with Pierre. Being able to run at even 7 kts steadily, in the direction you want without your speed varying or needing to tack is typically faster than sailing. When we've cruised with sailors, on an optimal day, they can match or beat our travel time. But on many days, even if we're doing 6.5 kts, we get there first..

Very true, but I don't think sailors fully appreciate the differences between even a modestly constructed trawler or motoryacht under power compared to a similar waterline sailboat, both in speed and comfort.

Several years ago, I accompanied a friend on the Baja Ha Ha, an 800 nm/3-leg run from San Diego to Cabo San Lucas. Boat was a 40-foot Willard displacement, a bit shorter than the fleet average of around 42 feet. The only boats that beat us into the next anchorage were +50-footers and a few sleds. Some 40-ish footers trailed is by +15-hours or more.

In the end, I found there were a lot more days I wouldnt go out on a sailboat either due to weather, wind, or lack of crew. And I found i loved being on the water more than I liked sailing. Transition to power was simple. For me, I like life at jogging speed so displacement works for me. But there are a lot more choices on semi-displacement if you want speed. That said, sailboats are inherently stable and thus more comfortable in chop. Which is why I always recommend a stabilized boat if intent is serious coastal cruising on a power boat.

Peter

 

[ranger58sb]

Your powerboat buddies are wimps.

Pardon me, I meant to include a smiley face after that.



-Chris

 

[Nick14]

Dreamer. 2x - 4x that budget maybe. Or 20 years old. Or 25-30'. For example a new 39' AT or NT is going to be only a little shy of $1M ready to cruise.

AT: American Tug?
I am also contemplating a “new boat”, but not sure which brand or model yet.
A slow trawler could work but I want single engine with a bow thruster, perhaps even a stern thruster.
A faster boat boat would be ideal for quick trips to the Bahamas when the conditions are good, and a slow trip when they are not good..
Still early in planning stages, but thinking 35’ to 45’ ��
Budget $200k, but could go higher if I fell in love..

FWIW, after an exhaustive new and used boat search over the past couple of years, I completely agree with @DDW.

By the time you actually sail away from the dock, assuming modest outfitting a new AT34 (now called 365) will be around $600k; a Helmsman 38 in the $700's, an AT39 in the $900's, and a Nordhavn 41 north of $1 million.

If you go with a semi- or full custom build, e.g. a Wilbur 38 will set you back $1.5-$2 million, depending on the level of finish you want.

New for $200k today barely gets a Rosborough 246 outboard. Or a bare hull and deck mold for a 35 ft downeast Mitchell Cove.

$200k gets a 30+ year old Wilbur 34 nowadays, or any one of a number of 1980's 40-ish ft Taiwan-built boats.

Boat price inflation over the past few years has been beyond eye-popping.

 

[Nick14]

Thank you. I do know about Sabre and Grand Banks, but did not know about the others in your second paragraph. Kind of funny, I stand on the dock w powerboater friends and they can tick off each and every type of powerboat w price and comments just by looking at them. I know none. OTH, I can do the same w sailboats. See that 83 Erickson 35, at one point in time everyone drooled over it. They look at me like I am crazy (more of them than me) ;-)

Appreciate your inputs.

The difference between 15 and 20 knots might seem like 'only 5 knots', but the laws of physics are very strict. Some walls are particularly steep to climb.

The old formula for hull speed we all know, 1.34 x sq rt LWL. For a 38-ish ft boat with a 36 ft LWL, HS = 8 knots. To exceed that, whether for planing or semi-displacement hull design, requires some amount of hydrodynamic lift, to lift part of the hull some way higher or out of the water. That takes power, fuel, and most importantly, a hull design that can achieve that. Such as with some flat sections aft, a bow section that would allow climbing over the bow wave vs. plowing through it.

The transitional speeds just above HS, say 10-13 knots, are particularly difficult for boats in this size range. The hull is trying to climb over the bow wave but unless properly designed will be plowing a big wave and at its least efficient, most fuel-guzzling.

Many of the Maine 'lobster' boats are especially effective operating reasonably efficiently in that nether-world of semi-displacement speeds in the teens. IMHO, so is the AT39. With a 550 hp engine it can achieve WOT of 23 knots (though at that speed it's probably running as pretty much a low-planing hull), yet can run at HS, or in the teens. A rare multi-purpose design that works.

But anything above about 80-90% of HS is going to cost a LOT in additional fuel burn. As the old saying goes, speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?

 

[Jeff F]

Saw a Krogen Express at the show which would be the perfect boat except it is 50' and $2M.

There's a nice Krogan Express 49 that just came on the market...
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1999-krogen-express-49-9019699/

 

[Blue Yonder]

The Tom Fexas designed semi-displacement hulls are known for their efficiency at cruise speeds. At the lower end of the budget you could look at older Mikelson built ones like this 43 footer or perhaps this 59 footer.

 

[BruceK]

Right you are Bruce. My first onboard experience with Riviera was 25 years ago in Perth. Along with the Riviera is the great Aussie built boat Maritimo. Both are proven offshore in challenging conditions.

Interestingly Tom, the two are "related". Bill Barry Cotter started Mariner, sold it, started Riviera, sold it, then started a more upmarket Maritimo, which I think his son now operates. Riviera went through some GFC issues but came out of it with a new owner and seems to be going very well, incl exhibiting and selling in USA.

 

[jbinbi]

I must cruise on my sailboat differently than you ex sailors.

When I tell my powerboating friends, 'today I went for a sail', they ask me, 'where did you go?' I look at them like they are crazy and say, whadya mean, I went for a sail. There is no destination, it is just the journey about sailing. It depends upon what the wind is doing for a daysail for your route.

If I am trying to get someplace within a time frame, if I can sail it directly, then that is my first choice to do it. If not, then I look if I can motorsail it, if so, I do that. If I can't do that, then I just motor. So I need to go from newport to BI, south in the summer when the wind is from the south, if I want to get there within a time frame, I just motor at 6kts (I currently have a 34' sailboat). If I want to enjoy a daysail and understand it will take 2x as long,and that fits the schedule, then I will sail it with a VMG of 3 kts.

I sold my 38' sailing cat 3 years ago, and that would power at 7-8 kts using about 1gph. Great amount of room. The beam kills in trying to get dockspace, but if you are happy to be on a mooring or anchor, with the above strategy, it was hard to beat this boat. The compromise was that if I wanted to daysail, it was not quite as efficient as a monohull, and required more work (no roller furling main, larger distances to do things myself, etc.).

So if I am moving to a powerboat, I want the ability to go faster than hull speed. Else I should just buy another sailing cat, and use it like I described above.

Will look at Riveria, and also down east types. My other preference is to have a flybridge as if I want to go to FL and Bahamas, having a flybridge would be much nicer I think.

I have looked at Swift Trawler 35, seems to be pretty nice. Probably need to look at other sport fishing boats, but it really seems they are made to go fast more than not. I am fine going hull speed for lots of the time, I want to be able to go 2x it if I want to. Appreciate everyones inputs.

 

[mvweebles]

If speed is your only concern, you may want to stick with sail. With Diesel at the fuel dock running over $5/gal, few folks run at 15+ kts (and over $100/hr) making it mostly a gold brick in your backyard. While a powerboat can handle a fair amount of chop, unless it is stabilized, a sailboat with its sail up as a significantly more comfortable ride. That said, Bumfuzzle.com is a blog of a family of four who are serial adventurers. They circumnaivated on a 34-foot sail cat; toured via Airstream from Alaska to Panama; bought another sailboat; then spent about 4-5 years on a Grand Banks 42 cruising the entire Caribbean from Bahamas to the ABCs. They recently sold the boat and bought another sailboat in Puerta Vallarta to continue their journey.

Peter

 

[BruceK]

A lot of the Rivs sold here only have a flybridge helm, some have upper and lower, don`t know about export models. I`ve got both on my semi displacement 8 knot hull speed"plodder". Rarely use the FB, personal preference. FB only seems popular in warmer climes.

 

[vacantid]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Cutwater Boats from same builder as Ranger Tugs. They have options including outboard engines to consider to easily reach 12 - 15 Kts.

Consider that in order to travel 1.5x hull speed you need to change to planning or semi-planning hull and reduce the displacement substantially compared to "semi-displacement" trawlers like North Pacific Yachts, American Tug (AT), Nordic Yachts, etc

I would strongly recommend that you consider chartering a couple different trawler types first before trying to decide via check out voyage after making an offer. We did this for 3-4 years and spent some fun summers on different boats. Rapidly decided what we liked and did not like. Purchased a North Pacific 39 after sailing a Ranger 33 Sailboat for 17 years.

There are a host of issues to be concerned about besides speed - bow and stern thrusters? Flybridge steering or only pilot house? Visibility from Pilot house? What can you see and not see from the flybridge? Are you forced to run from the flybridge because the bow rise makes visibility very difficult? Won't know any of this till you take her out for a week and see what it is really all about.

 

[ranger58sb]

Will look at Riveria, and also down east types. My other preference is to have a flybridge as if I want to go to FL and Bahamas, having a flybridge would be much nicer I think.

Probably need to look at other sport fishing boats, but it really seems they are made to go fast more than not. I am fine going hull speed for lots of the time, I want to be able to go 2x it if I want to. Appreciate everyones inputs.

Convertibles as from Riviera, Maritimo, Ocean, Hatteras, Viking, Cabo, Silverton, Luhrs, Bertram, etc.... originally sportfishers with amenities... will likely have the helm station mounted aft on the flybridge. Makes docking stern-to much easier. Older models often get you 2-stroke Detroit Diesels, newer more often Cat, Cummins, some Volvos (including pod drives for newer boats), some Yanmars... or MAN or MTU at the upper reaches. Pros and cons for various engine packages; boatdiesel.com can be your friend.

(Yes, some are made to go fast, but... that's often two components. One is to get to the tournament fishing grounds and back again ahead of everyone else... and it's not like everyone who owns a sportfish actually does it. The other is to match speeds to sea states. Latter doesn't have to be at race speed...)

Sedan bridge boats from Cruisers, Carver, Sea Ray, Formula, etc... will more likely have the helm mounted forward on the flybridge. (Ours doesn't, and there are a few others...) Ditto all that engine stuff.

None of all those usually include lower helm stations, although there are exceptions. And adding cockpit controls can work if it's just about docking.

"Down East" bridge boats from Sabre, Hinckley, Wilbur, seem to have their flybridge helm forward too, but I haven't researched those extensively. Might see more lower station availability here. (We win the lottery, a Sabre 54 is on the horizon!)

Engines are what they are. You can usually "manage" large engines easily enough. Putter along when whim and sea states allow, go faster when schedule or sea states dictate. Former need attention to recommended operating temps etc, not all that difficult. FWIW, we cruise at either 8.5 kts... or around 19 kts, plus/minus, matched to seat states. The boat will get up to about 30 kts, but we seldom care about speed... )

-Chris

 

[jbinbi]

I would strongly recommend that you consider chartering a couple different trawler types first before trying to decide via check out voyage after making an offer. We did this for 3-4 years and spent some fun summers on different boats. Rapidly decided what we liked and did not like. Purchased a North Pacific 39 after sailing a Ranger 33 Sailboat for 17 years.

Thanks. Great idea. Do you know who charters trawlers of various brands?

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. jb. "Do you know who charters trawlers of various brands?" NOT as important as various layouts IMO (galley up/down, aft master/forward master, sundeck/"Europa" style etc.) As probably mentioned, brand is not as important as maintenance.


Once you find what you like or don't like about the various styles or layouts, the options quickly shrink.

 

[jbinbi]

Greetings,
Mr. jb. "Do you know who charters trawlers of various brands?" NOT as important as various layouts IMO (galley up/down, aft master/forward master, sundeck/"Europa" style etc.) As probably mentioned, brand is not as important as maintenance.


Once you find what you like or don't like about the various styles or layouts, the options quickly shrink.

Have owned boats for 40 years. Performance of the boat is what comes first to me. If the boat can't handle 3' waves comfortably, then galley up or down is pointless. Looking to charter to find out if the type of boat meets lifestyle expectations.

So again, looking for places that will charter trawlers/SD 'trawler like', etc. Can charter powercats in the Carib, so might try that. But haven't seen other powerboat types that I can charter in NE.

 

[SteveK]

Comfort? The admiral expects it or there will be more plane rides.
When we took delivery of current vessel I was waiting for comments as the seas were, rough. As we entered calmer water I asked how the ride was and surprise, we were both on CB and thumbs up. Usually she would have been below with less movement. Since then we have had many rides in seas that would have gotten the thumbs down.
This boat is comfortable. I too noticed the ride was smoother over waves than I expected.

3 foot waves as measured from trough to crest or 3 foot above level seas, that there is a 3 foot difference.
I have not consider 3 foot trough to crest rough and usually a comfortable sail. With a power boat I found greater comfort with every 2 foot boat lenght increased, and now withthe 45 it can straddle 3-4 wave tops making a world of difference in comfort.

 

[huruta]

Which one had the horrible story after a buyer bought a used one with 25 hours on it and got leaks and delaminating with the factory doing nothing to help out?
Was that a Ranger Tug, or some other brand?
(3-4 years ago maybe?) ?

I believe you are thinking of a Ranger Tug called lemonaid.

 

[PNK]

I would echo the comment about looking at some "downeast" boats, which are designed to do pretty much what you are looking for.
I would check out their forum "downeastboatforum.com", which I read pretty regularly. They have a 'boats for sale' and 'boats wanted', just like TF; many of the members are working on their boats every day, and are super knowledgeable and helpful.
Good luck in your search!

 

[jbinbi]

Thanks. Will check it out. Do any downeast boats have a flybridge? Will have the boat in FL in winter, and having a flybridge would be very nice. It is also one of the reasons I would like to have a 'faster than hull speed' boat. Crossing from FLL to Bahamas is 70 mi. Have done it several times on sailboat, say averaging 7 kts, so let's just say you need 12 hours. Best to get in by 2 to clear customs, so that means leaving at midnight. If I could do 2x the speed, that means could leave at 7am. A much nicer crossing in daylight.

 

[kolohe9]

My mind immediately went to Beneteau Swift as well. There should be a decent selection of pre-owned out there, and who can afford to by anything factory-new these days?

 

[PNK]

Yes, many make versions with FB's. Wesmac, Nauset are two I know of in person, here is an example listed right now on Yachtworld:
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1987-nauset-flybridge-cruiser-with-hardtop-9023993/

Wesmac boats tend to be more expensive, but there a lot of brands out there, most made in Maine or other New England states.

 

[jbinbi]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Cutwater Boats from same builder as Ranger Tugs. They have options including outboard engines to consider to easily reach 12 - 15 Kts.


I would strongly recommend that you consider chartering a couple different trawler types first before trying to decide via check out voyage after making an offer.

Thanks for the suggestion on Cutwater. Seems interesting, but can't find anything on the type of boat this really is. Nothing on fuel burn or range. Looks like it can do 30kts, so is this no different than an express boat like a searay?

Also, can you let me know any charter companies that have trawlers. I can find none in the NE. Will fly anywhere to spend a week trying things.

 

[hhntr111]

In 2021, we sold our beautiful Cambria 46 sailboat and bought a Beneteau ST 42. Tryst is a 2006 model with Yamnar 6LYA-STP engines, had about 3,000 hours on them when we bought her. We slow cruise at 10 knots, about 1gal/nm, and fast cruise at 16-18 knots, at about 1.5 gal.nm, although the boat will do 23-24 knots, but huge fuel burn. When out cruising, we usually make a speed run of an hour or two to clean out the turbo's once a week or so. We live aboard all summer, Connecticut to Maine.

 

[rgbrooks]

A couple other suggestions are Camano Troll and Mainship. There should be a number of these on the used market. They are both classified as fast trawlers. The people I know that have had these boats cruise at displacement speeds 90% of the time but can go faster when needed.

 

[Duetto]

"There are a few PDQs trawlers out there."

we've owned a 34' pdq powercat for 18 years. we have lived on it in bahamas for 13 winters, done bahamas to new england 6 round trips, and been all around fl. it will do 14+ knots all day long (in smooth water) and gets 2.75 nmpg average. we have an early boat with 75 hp yanmars. you can get 100 & 110 versions which get more speed and better mileage. small cats pound in a short head sea, so we don't go until wind shifts or it gets calmer. pdqs are not really a trawler. it was a marketing tactic to get former sailors.

we also have a mainship 34 pilot with a single 370 yanmar. same 14 knots but avg 1.25 nmpg.

 

[Capt Dan]

Maybe I'm missing something but why, if you don't want a trawler, why are you asking for help on the Trawler Forum.
You should be asking this question on the "Boats that Go a Minimum of 15 Knots Forum"