Engine stopped mid passage. Why?

[Simi 60]

Or:

Alternator failure
.

Went several months with a dead alternator
Not a problem

 

[rslifkin]

Went several months with a dead alternator
Not a problem

All depends on how it fails. If it just stops outputting power, no big deal. If it develops an internal short or other issue that causes it to get hot, or it locks up from a failed bearing, then it's more of an issue.

 

[OldDan1943]

Its so new and shiny

Cummins NTA855-M350 Marine Engine - Brand New - Filter Discounters

Nice, filter discount.
If I put that engine in AT34 everything in the boat would have to be removed so I can only conclude what has been said before, "Too big."

 

[Lepke]

"Folks, think about the millions of vehicles on the road, all of which are controlled electronically and have been for thirty years. Yet, have we heard about widespread failures of electronic components? Nope."

My dock is between 2 small towns, not on an interstate. There are at least 6 tow truck companies. One must have a dozen trucks and I've used it several times for my F-250 diesel. If electronic controlled cars are so reliable, why are there so many tow trucks? These companies should be going out of business, but I see them on the road all the time. They're not just towing 1975 Chevys. Electronics have gotten better, but they're still not reliable.

 

[rslifkin]

My dock is between 2 small towns, not on an interstate. There are at least 6 tow truck companies. One must have a dozen trucks and I've used it several times for my F-250 diesel. If electronic controlled cars are so reliable, why are there so many tow trucks? These companies should be going out of business, but I see them on the road all the time. They're not just towing 1975 Chevys. Electronics have gotten better, but they're still not reliable.

Don't forget that the average person doesn't maintain their stuff worth a damn. So that leads to those guys doing lots of towing that could be otherwise prevented.



Electronics are certainly not perfect, but when done well, they can be very reliable. Unfortunately, there are too many cases of manufacturers cheaping out and ending up with unreliable junk as a result.

 

[cafesport]

Pretty cool stuff happening now here https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/

 

[psneeld]

I know boat towing is way down for engine issues in at least one normally busy area in recent years.

 

[Mako]

Pretty cool stuff happening now here https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/

Yes that was very cool. It almost makes me feel guilty about insulting the JPL processing director for spending a billion plus tax payer dollars on that “weird ATV”

Btw I was only joking, but she didn’t take it that way.

Oh Cafe-guy, before the others start criticizing us for going off topic, what do you think the Rover uses for backup propulsion, just in case the fuel goes bad or the solenoid burns out???

 

[sbman]

The only firsthand mention of a failure with electronics on a modern marine diesel here so far was an external installation issue.

Electronics can be reliable if they are designed and installed correctly, and then properly maintained. With a mechanical device, if you see a fuel leak, you'll take corrective action, but electronics are often overlooked because they aren't seen, and are expected to run perfectly fine in a corrosive marine environment with no service.

Electrical system maintenance is often completely ignored because it can't be seen. Some simple things like, unplugging and re-seating sensors with the proper terminal grease once every couple of years, retorquing and applying corrosion protection to the power cables supplying the ECU and systems, and most importantly; making repairs the proper way and to a standard that meets or exceeds the original manufacturers installation.

If you obtain the proper code reader and service manuals, you might have to order a part but all engine manuals are going to include step by step troubleshooting. I know this isn't the case, but with the cost of a new diesel engine, it should be mandatory that they include an electronic copy of it's manual on delivery.

 

[JESSEDIVER49]

Engine Stopped mid-passage - why

Here's an odd one for anyone having a Ford Lehman diesel. In 2018 on a mostly ICW trip from Galveston to Cape May NJ, I lost an engine departing Charlestown, SC. The short of it is a year earlier, a mechanic in Galveston removed the the entire lifter, rocker arm assembly on my port engine to enable him to calibrate the injectors and when he put the assembly back on, he put it on backwards. By doing so, only 3 of the 6 assemblies on the head were getting proper lubrication for I think about 200 hrs of run time. The failure that occurred due to metal against metal with improper lubrication caused a push rod to separate from the rocker arm and caused the most horrible noise I'd ever heard from an engine of any kind. The first mechanic in Charlestown told me I needed a complete engine rebuild to the tune of $1500 plus. My "savior" was American Diesel. They diagnosed the problem and gave me the know how to recover plus got me all the new parts I needed in a super timely manner. The 2nd mechanic I found knew Ford Lehmans, agreed with them on what needed to be done and about 4 days later I was back on the ICW. Never had to pull the head. The recovery process included several oil flushes to rid it of metal particles. Since then I've had at least 3 routine oil changes along with oil analysis done for all 3 diesels (incl generator) I have. No issues with the port engine. After 2 seasons on the Chesapeake Bay and running the boat to N.C. last November, no problems, knock on wood. I am very happy I have 2 engines.

 

[mvweebles]

The only firsthand mention of a failure with electronics on a modern marine diesel here so far was an external installation issue.

Electronics can be reliable if they are designed and installed correctly, and then properly maintained. With a mechanical device, if you see a fuel leak, you'll take corrective action, but electronics are often overlooked because they aren't seen, and are expected to run perfectly fine in a corrosive marine environment with no service.

Electrical system maintenance is often completely ignored because it can't be seen. Some simple things like, unplugging and re-seating sensors with the proper terminal grease once every couple of years, retorquing and applying corrosion protection to the power cables supplying the ECU and systems, and most importantly; making repairs the proper way and to a standard that meets or exceeds the original manufacturers installation.

If you obtain the proper code reader and service manuals, you might have to order a part but all engine manuals are going to include step by step troubleshooting. I know this isn't the case, but with the cost of a new diesel engine, it should be mandatory that they include an electronic copy of it's manual on delivery.

Electrical stuff is not my strength - I'm only average with it. Electronics? Fugggetaboutit. I hang my hat on a friend's experience I referenced early in this thread with a 2014 Cummins 7.x liter with about 1000 hours on it. Even with Cummins' mechanic and (presumably) his comprehensive code-reader, diagnosis was difficult and expensive. These engines (even the generator) have various interlocks on them for fire systems, steering systems, etc. They are there for good reasons I suppose, but diagnosing an engine that won't start is no longer "Check fuel, check compression" ordeal. When these engines run, they are great. But there are a lot of ways for these engines to (a) stop running; (b) not start at all; or (c) not run properly; many of which are not related to compression or clean fuel.

Add-on that some manufacturers are being very militant about letting anyone but a factory-authorized technician service the engine, and suddenly, it feels a vulnerable and exposed to me - like the bad dream where you show-up at work but forgot to get dressed. But again, I manage to figure stuff out, but it's not easy for me, and I find it stressful.

I wish I had more confidence in these engines. They are so much more fuel efficient. But I just couldn't venture too far with one of these gems unless I had a Gulfstream 5 on standby where I could fly-in a mechanic.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Sbman please excuse my ignorance but I thought with a lightening strike the thing is likely toast.
So is it feasible that a ignoramus like me could get it going again? If so what spares would I need? Any special tools required? Would I need specialized training? Where could I get it?

 

[rslifkin]

Sbman please excuse my ignorance but I thought with a lightening strike the thing is likely toast.
So is it feasible that a ignoramus like me could get it going again? If so what spares would I need? Any special tools required? Would I need specialized training? Where could I get it?

There's a decent chance that you'd toast at least something on the engine in a lightning strike. But it's already somewhat of a crapshoot on whether you'd take other crippling damage, so it wouldn't be a big concern in my mind.

 

[sbman]

Sbman please excuse my ignorance but I thought with a lightening strike the thing is likely toast.
So is it feasible that a ignoramus like me could get it going again? If so what spares would I need? Any special tools required? Would I need specialized training? Where could I get it?

I think with a lightning strike, all bets are off no matter what you have. Is the starter in a mechanical engine going to survive? Your hull can even be damaged by a lightning strike.

Per mvweebles point, I wouldn't want an engine I wasn't allowed to work on, or could not get service information for or any other system on my boat that falls into that category for that matter.

My point is that with the proper information and tools, it's not that hard to fix an electronically controlled engine, although somewhat less intuitive than turning bolts with wrenches. You could carry a spare ECU and critical sensors as spares. However, the attitude, pricing and availability of spares, accessibility of manuals and tools is subject to the manufacturer, and if they are making it difficult (John Deere farm equipment comes to mind) that's a different issue than whether they are reliable or not.

There are already new cars I simply will not buy because of the lack of service information and tools, or prohibitive costs in obtaining them. Some manufacturers are working to actively lock end users out of doing their own service.

 

[rslifkin]

I think with a lightning strike, all bets are off no matter what you have. Is the starter in a mechanical engine going to survive? Your hull can even be damaged by a lightning strike.

Per mvweebles point, I wouldn't want an engine I wasn't allowed to work on, or could not get service information for or any other system on my boat that falls into that category for that matter.

My point is that with the proper information and tools, it's not that hard to fix an electronically controlled engine, although somewhat less intuitive than turning bolts with wrenches. You could carry a spare ECU and critical sensors as spares. However, the attitude, pricing and availability of spares, accessibility of manuals and tools is subject to the manufacturer, and if they are making it difficult (John Deere farm equipment comes to mind) that's a different issue than whether they are reliable or not.

There are already new cars I simply will not buy because of the lack of service information and tools, or prohibitive costs in obtaining them. Some manufacturers are working to actively lock end users out of doing their own service.

That's exactly my mentality, but summed up better than I have I think.

 

[mvweebles]

I think with a lightning strike, all bets are off no matter what you have. Is the starter in a mechanical engine going to survive? Your hull can even be damaged by a lightning strike.

Lightning is a thread unto itself. Steve D'Antonio has several articles, including some written for BoatUS and other industry mags. My takeaway is that while not a guarantee, a very heavy grounding system helps. There are also some ultra-fast blow fuses that while fairly expensive, will help protect your electronics.

I have known a couple cruisers who were hit by lightning (two more than who I know have hit an adrift container). One had a fairly new Beneteau 45-ish sailboat they had purchased new and it was never right after that despite a large insurance claim.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Definitely agree but have come to think lightening is truly weird. You hear of near by or fairly distant strikes causing one piece of electronics to fail and not others. Or internal side flashes. Or small pits through the hull with the through hulls and rest of the boat remaining intact. I know how to replace a starter or alternator but I’m clueless about electronics. Just a plug and play kind of guy.

You read about the stuff that prof from U of Florida writes but still come away thinking unless you’re in a metal boat you’re going to have troubles. Would think the combo of a metal boat with a mechanical engine with shaft interrupted by rubber and handheld nav placed in your stove or other faraday box would be your best ( not perfect) option.

Peter come to Florida and I think you’d hear about more than 2 boats having lightening damage. Interestingly multihulls are twice as likely to be struck than monohulls.

 

[rslifkin]

I know how to replace a starter or alternator but I’m clueless about electronics.

Most of us aren't wizards at diagnosing anything more than pretty simple electronics. That's why, in my mind, it's critical to have access to the information needed to diagnose the thing. Going in blind is hard. Going in with wiring diagrams, functional descriptions, troubleshooting charts, etc. may be tedious, but as long as you've got any tools needed to go along with it (code reader, multimeter, etc.) you've got a pretty good shot at figuring out what's wrong (and what part you may need if you don't have one on hand).

 

[Slider70]

In my 35 years / over 20K hours of running single diesel engine set ups I have had the engine shut itself down five times all air in fuel. This from a faulty Racor (even after I rebuilt it). Installed a Gulf Coast filter and never happened again.

I have shut down my engine in an emergency in the middle of Hecate St (17 hr crossing on that leg) to repair a split injector line that was spraying diesel around until I did the repair. This was found from a severe miss. Had another new diesel with less than 60 hrs having to be shut down from a crack in the oil filer housing spraying engine oil (this activated the propane sniffer and glad it did). I got towed in. The cracked oil filter was likely the result of the housing being struck hard somewhere between the manufacturer & the installation crew?

My friend lost his vessel from an explosion & fire the result of a crack in his engine oil filter housing too. He was in Hecate St and didn't think he could get a tow. His sniffer alerted him to the problem also. He jury rigged some metal around the spray to restrict it, restarted the engine to limp back into port for repairs. Didn't make it, lost everything & had first and second degree burns before lowering his skiff and escaping the vessel.

 

[OldDan1943]

Does it do any good to put a 'broom tail' on the highest point and run a copper wire down to a grounding plate?

 

[mvweebles]

Does it do any good to put a 'broom tail' on the highest point and run a copper wire down to a grounding plate?

https://www.proboat.com/2016/04/3530/

This is not the most comprehensive article Steve d has written on the subject. He does show a picture of a yacht with some sort of lightning rod at the top but mostly says lightning path is unpredictable. Note the recommendation for a long ribbon ground strap underwater.

 

[AusCan]

I've never had an engine shut down on it's own, only shut down manually. Engines have always had minimal electronics other than electric fuel pump on the Vetus engine.

Reasons for shutdown:
Overheating - various overheating issues with the old Volvo MD-17
Strange noise - Flashlight left on top of engine fell down next to alternator belt
Flooded bilge - Hose came off water muffler

I'm glad the Vetus is simple and intuitive to diagnose any problems. It suits my limited suite of skills and diagnostic tools. That is important when boating in limited service areas.

 

[hughespat57]

I hope this works linking three quotes.


Now I am not trawler, strictly a coastal cruiser, gas not diesel.
But I have older GM 350 (5.7) based carburated engines. The only electronics is a simple ignition module. (and I bought a boat with twins).

I was a USCG Machinery Technician, an ASE certified Master Truck Technician, left that industry for Computer Systems Engineer.

On the SeaRayClub forums we had a similar discussion. I stated I would never own a newer fly by wire boat, never have a Sea Ray with an infamous ECM (controls lighting, winches, pumps, digital helm switches). And many owners of MPI and EFI TBI are always asking for diagnostic help with strange engine behaviors. or No start issues.


I got a lot of guff from saying my engines are critical, all the other electronics, for navigation and such are NOT. In the end my position was and still is. "KISS where I can and redundancy where I cant." I have two VHF, one fancy DSC, one old ICOM 500 mounted below. I only need one engine and my compass and I'll get home.



You cant get out of a boat and walk.
You cant get out of an airplane and walk.


To those that claim electronics if properly designed is reliable you are in denial. The more complex the system the more points of failure and the more failures WILL be experienced.



Go on YouTube and look at how many large "out of control" boats there have been recently, fly by wire? You aren't going to hear about the boats that got towed in from the bay. Nor about the ones that had to get towed in from offshore. You only read about the ones that ended tragically.



737 Max, millions of dollars and man hours; but no button that simply says "My Aircraft".



While a mechanic I had a Penske International DT466E truck towed in that was 100ft away from a lightning strike on an overpass. The truck was NOT hit. But just the Electro Magnetic Pulse was enough to fry the computer and several engine sensors, the FM radio too. Not anecdotal I was the tech that repaired it.



I have seen numerous Detroit 60 series DDEC problems as well. Sure MOST electronic heavy diesel engines are reliable. But they have significantly more issues then non-electronic. I've worked with both.



The auto and light truck diesels are a joke, way to much electronics today.
I have a 2001 Dodge RAM 2500 5.9 24v Cummins, and even it had bad Bosch electronic VP44 pumps. I just lost the alternator, the PCM controls the alternator field (no dedicated regulator) $300 to fix the "voltage regulator". Nuts.

With electronic stuff, electronics on an engine don't concern me much. But electric steering, or electric shift / throttle systems just don't seem to be build robustly and reliably enough for me to be comfortable with them. There's no excuse for it either. Building reliable electronics for fairly simple stuff isn't all that hard.

I see no data on this. The diesel electronics seen to be rock solid . The failure is far more likely from a belt, pump or hose. Not a computer.

Folks, think about the millions of vehicles on the road, all of which are controlled electronically and have been for thirty years. Yet, have we heard about widespread failures of electronic components? Nope. Yes, occasionally, very occasionally someone, car, truck, boat will experience a problem but hardly a reason for concern. I once had to have the injectors replaced on my truck. Soon after leaving the shop, the engine went into limp mode. A computer diagnostic (my own code reader) revealed an open circuit for one injector. Turned out the mechanic had not tightened a wire on one of the injectors. The point is, the code reader revealed the problem. The example cited in another response where a "mechanic" threw $5,000 of parts replacement, just guessing, is merely an example of an incompetent mechanic when it turned out to be a simple harness connection. A code reader would have revealed the open circuit.

Now, the real problem is that some manufacturers have set up their computers such that only a certified mechanic ($$$) can get into the computer to do the diagnostic. John Deere is one. There are many farmers who are not happy with Deere for this reason. There are even bootleg interfaces for getting into Deere computers. Imagine having a combine fail in the middle of a time-senstive harvest, having a propulsion failure, and the nearest Deere factory mechanic is 150 miles away.

 

[Simi 60]

I'm glad the Vetus is simple and intuitive to diagnose any problems. It suits my limited suite of skills and diagnostic tools. That is important when boating in limited service areas.

If a stick and rude words can't get them going again I don't want it.

 

[klee wyck]

https://www.proboat.com/2016/04/3530/

This is not the most comprehensive article Steve d has written on the subject. He does show a picture of a yacht with some sort of lightning rod at the top but mostly says lightning path is unpredictable. Note the recommendation for a long ribbon ground strap underwater.

I have never thought about lightning much because it is so uncommon in this geography. However, the former owners of my new ride apparently thought about it quite a bit in their low latitude travels. Here is a description of the plan on DOMINO.

Domino was designed with an extensive Lightning Management System – on the theory that they would be hit by lightning, the purpose was to manage the hit!

Custom designed by Ewen Thomson (Marine Lightning Protection Inc.)

Aerials: 5 aerials, connected to copper tube encircling the boat
Custom Faraday cage for electronics
Spark electrodes: 10 “sidearc” dispersion electrodes
Arrestors and diodes: On every antenna and electrical/electronic device

I see no mention of protection designed specifically for electronic engines in this design by a lightning professional. What to make of that?

 

[Reelalure]

We had a very scary incident the end of lastseason on Lake Michigan. We pulled anchor on a Sunday morning to headback to our home port which was about 9 miles away under some pretty crappyconditions. Normally we would never travel in them but since it was onlygoing to take about an hour we decided instead of being stuck therefor the next day or so we would go for in it in our 37 tug. It has an electronically controlled Cummins with a Smart Craftgauge package. The boat can do about 14 knots so we sped it up toabout 10 knots to help with the ride and shorten the trip. About half wayin the boat was doing great, a rough wet ride but really no big deal until theengine completely died at speed and the Smart Craft panel went dark. We ended up anchoring in about 30 foot of water just off shore with an onshorewind and 3-5-foot waves. We called tow boat and the coast guard forassistance. I was afraid I was going to end up on shore if theanchor let loose. Our local tow boat was on vacation and they turnedout to be no help. About a half hour into a very upsetting situation Ifound a single fuse on the main engine battery labeled Smart Craft, the plasticfuse holder had broken. It was a single roundglass fuse and the $2 holder broke so the internal spring pushed it apart. About half a role of electrical tapeand a lot of swearing and the boat fired right up with no issue. Getting the anchor back on board in those waveswas another issue! At the time I wasreally mad with the design of the boat, I could not believe that a single fusewould take out the entire engine while underway. We obviously fixed the problem and added acouple additional safeguards but I must save I am definitely more wary aboutthe electronically controlled motor verses our old mechanical diesel in our oldboat. When the control panel went darknothing worked at either helm and that was the only time in 15 years I wish Ihad twins!

 

[rslifkin]

About a half hour into a very upsetting situation Ifound a single fuse on the main engine battery labeled Smart Craft, the plasticfuse holder had broken. It was a single roundglass fuse and the $2 holder broke so the internal spring pushed it apart. About half a role of electrical tapeand a lot of swearing and the boat fired right up with no issue.

That's just an inexcusable design / build quality flaw in my mind. Inline plastic fuse holders should never have been used for a critical system, as they aren't necessarily the most durable (as you discovered). A better design from the start would almost certainly have avoided the issue entirely.

 

[BruceK]

Sbman please excuse my ignorance but I thought with a lightening strike the thing is likely toast.
So is it feasible that a ignoramus like me could get it going again? If so what spares would I need? Any special tools required? Would I need specialized training? Where could I get it?

Might parking near a sailboat in thunderstorm weather help divert a lightning strike?

 

[Mako]

... the engine completely died at speed and the Smart Craft panel went dark.... a single fuse on the main engine battery labeled Smart Craft, the plasticfuse holder had broken.

That sucks when such a tiny component becomes the critical link. I was pounding through waves with my last boat and at some point, each time I had a particularly hard pounding the engine would die. We'd sit dead, then I'd restart and keep going, only to die again. Over and over.

Turns out it was the battery switch which had a loose connection inside. I always figured the electronic engine would be "self-energized" through its alternator, but no, it needed battery power to keep running. Stupid design.

I still insist on singles, but in the future it will be purely mechanical. Fuel shutoff solenoids can be bypassed. Starter motors can be changed out and started with jumper cables.

 

[Hippocampus]

Bruce not a viable answer for many. Two stories.
Coming home from BVI on great circle course to Newport R.I. weather router told us to divert to a spot 50 m north of Bahamas. Sat there fore reaching or hoved too for 7 full days in calm waters with constant lightening all around us. Would reposition periodically to stay as far as possible from the current active strikes using radar to discern associated rain as the sky would light up but it was hard to see exact location of the strikes given distance. Fortunately no damage.
Was in our local home port slip in R.I. (A low strike region). We were 65’ mast height and then more with antennas and instruments. Boat to our starboard was a red light boat so mast well over 100’. Boat starboard of him a big sport fish. Boat starboard of him a very large cf racing cat (?60+’ LOA).
On returning to our boat saw the sport fish on the hard. Told he fried all his electronics and both engines. Small Hunter 3 boats to our port also had minor damage ( cooked electronics). Lightening will find the least resistance to ground. Mast height isn’t the only determinant. Electricity will pass through salt water. Sometimes entrance is not through a direct strike but through the water. Think with two large props and conductive running gear it wasn’t a direct strike that caused this event and water conducted electricity caused the damage.