cooking, bathing and cabin heat - A lot of research - no conclusions yet

[rsn48]

I haven't read all the responses. I will give you my ideal boat which amazingly enough... lol ..., just happens to resemble my boat. Be aware I just finished a multi-hundred thousand refit.

So I will just describe - TO ME - the perfect PNW and coastal BC boat.

1. The boat has hydronic heating which also heats your hot water as well as the boat. You don't need a hot water tank tied into your boat engine, nice but not necessary. When you show up to your boat to depart, turn the hot water tank (AC selection) on to heat water before you leave the dock. With the small tank you will have that can be done amazingly quickly - 15 to 20 minutes. When on the hook, that same tank takes its heat from the hydronic heater. Note: I got Espar but I think Hurricane might be better, check that claim out.

2. A cockpit with either a hard or soft bimini (I prefer hard, I have soft). The top of the bimini, especially a hard one is a great place for solar power. Soft walls that can roll down, this is good for the rain we get in our respective areas. And if you head into the Broughtons and Alaska (the plague will leave), it get colder and rainier even in summer. And a statistic I still find hard to believe, but Ketchican has more rain in July than Seattle does in November, now that's saying something. So in those wretched rain periods (you are going to use your boat in the off season, aren't you?) you can sip the champagne in the cockpit and contemplate how great life is.

My buddy just bought a NT 32 about a month and half ago so I've been on it twice. The cockpit area is small but still worth it to have extra livable space.

3. Get batteries, either lithium or fireflies that provide a deeper discharge rate, can stand abuse and neglect, charge fast and will last a long time. I have 6 fireflies that provides 700 amp of power at full discharge, and 560 amps to 20 % discharge (you can do that with these two types of batteries).

4. Add solar, don't bother asking how much, add as much as you can. No one has ever been heard to say they wish they hadn't added as much solar as they did. My refit guy disappointed me in this regard. My panels are three 100 watts but the space could easily handled three 150 watts.

5. No generator, you don't need one as long as you don't add big ticket electrical appliances or a jacuzzi. On the hook you can still use a toaster, microwave, hair blower (set on medium heat and medium blow).

6. Higher amp alternator - 140 to 200 amps. Or add a second one.

7. Efoy. There are three levels of Efoy - 80, 140, 210. Efoy is a methanol fuel cell. The best way to understand a fuel cell on your boat is this - imagine you have a solar panel system that works in the dark, in the light, under all conditions for 24 hours a day if you want. I have the Efoy 210 and it puts out slight lower than 8 amps an hour for as long as I leave it on, or just turn it on in certain situations, which is what I do. You won't use the Efoy unit much during the summer but as you head into off season with lots of cloud, you will use it much more. And power draw goes up in the off season, fans on your hydronic heater for example so your fuel cell is helpful then.

8. Dual system for running your boat. So I have a two burner Force 10 stove/oven that runs on propane. And of course a BBQ. So when the boat is on the hook in off season, I run the propane stove and BBQ. I run the hydronic heater to heat the cabin and hot water.

I also have a small convection oven and induction plate. When I'm at a marina, the Scottish comes out in me and I want to use the power I paid for, so I cook with the convection oven or BBQ, and induction cooking. Use the propane when I need to, don't use the propane when I don't need to.

In the above scenarios of batteries, fuel cell, solar and alternator, you can use the microwave (I do for about 5 minutes a day), toaster (I do for about 6 minutes a day), TV (I only watch DVD's, but my 28 inch tv is 50 watts), and lights etc. on the hook and can generate enough amps every day to be out for a long time on the hook.

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Originally Posted by DDW

Your costs sound about right. Trucking may be more than that - make sure the truckers know the height on the trailer when they quote. On mine the truck was $12.5K and escort fees due to height were $7K. I don't think a NT32 is much lower than an AT34.

Beware that the Suremarine REAL heat exchangers do not produce the advertised amount of heat (the figures are the max for the core only in lab conditions). On a small boat an install of a Webasto type boiler ends up taking a fair amount of space - lots of components. That's one of the reasons I went with the ITR Zephyr which is more highly integrated (but also more costly).

AC units do dehumidify, but they are very inefficient at it and take a lot of power. Practically speaking, they can't be run without plugging in or starting a genset. A dehumidifier is built differently and much more efficient for the task. The one I put in uses about 450w when running, and runs around 20-30% of the time. We have it on anytime we are at the dock or moving, running from the inverter which the alternator can easily supply. We run it in anchorages from batteries. An AC unit is designed to cool the air, dehumidification is a byproduct. In the PNW, you generally don't want the cooling. A dehumidifier will add a small amount of heat (the 450w) which in that climate is usually welcome. As it does not need a cooling water intake, it can be run in dry storage (we run it all winter on the hard) or in the water unattended without concern about an open thru hull.

I got a pretty solid idea on the trucking. Of course that will be a contract before I go off of contingency (assuming we get there.) I will definitely take a look at the ITR and the dehumidifier. (What brand / model if you don't mind) I am truing to find some reason to keep the a/c units around and out of the landfill!

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Originally Posted by sunchaser

Does the vessel have a microwave, house bank and inverter setup? Along with an induction (portable even) cooktop - coffee, toast, tea, oatmeal, eggs etc can be done without firing up the genset. There are so many ways to do things, no one way holds the top rung when it comes to making tea.

That is what it currently has. Perfect for tea!

[DDW]

Originally Posted by sunchaser

Does the vessel have a microwave, house bank and inverter setup?

As bought from the east coast, microwave but no inverter. So yes, genset had to be started to have tea. Back in the SE, the assumption is the genset is running all the time because AC is necessary to support life in that climate.

Originally Posted by Greg Salish Cruiser

I got a pretty solid idea on the trucking. Of course that will be a contract before I go off of contingency (assuming we get there.) I will definitely take a look at the ITR and the dehumidifier. (What brand / model if you don't mind) I am truing to find some reason to keep the a/c units around and out of the landfill!

As I said, just make sure you (and the trucker) know the height. Big difference in cost in just a few inches. My AT34 is higher on the trailer than my 45' deep keel sailboat and cost $4K more east -> west just because of that. On the AT, in 2 states, lead car had to run entire route through the state and back before the permit is issued to move the boat. Lead car with pole needed for entire route.

I like the ITR better than the Webasto/Espar but there are opinions both ways. One thing for sure, the ITR heat exchangers put out their spec in heat and the REAL ones don't - I've installed several of each on both my boats. The problem with the REAL is the fans are wimpy even though the units are good quality. Even their biggest fan has tiny airflow compared to the ITR.

The dehumidifier is the SanteFe Ultra Aire 70H. It fits in the same space as the AC unit it replaced. You need a short 8"-7" adapter to fit it to typical boat AC ductwork.

[OldDan1943]

Originally Posted by Greg Salish Cruiser

d
Looking for: Advice, referral to good advice, war stories, show and tell (post covid) or (if you hurry before I say yes) a NW configured NT 32/34 for a reasonable price.

Your money, I am not going to tell you how to spend. Just walk away NOW.

It costs a lot of your money to ship the broken boat across the country and then even more or your money to repair all that does not work.

[firehoser75]

Greg,
I mostly agree with OldDan. Moving a boat across the country is full of risks. All may work out well, but maybe not. Depending where from, the boat could be a salvaged boat, extremely sun damaged, etc. That can be checked out. It is a lot of potential problems and effort, to ship a boat that does not meet your wants and needs. I would wait and find one closer to home.
After boating around these parts (PNW) for years, I agree you are on the right track as to what you think is the perfect PNW boat (both make and equipment ).
Hydronic heat costs more than Airtronic, but can be configured to heat your water. I would still plumb for engine heating as well. There are many days when you motor and then would not waste all that "free" heat and have to pay for your diesel heater as well. Without a generator, propane cooking is the way to go! More solar is better than less solar. Unless your engine has a high output alternator with external regulator, do not depend on the engine for charging the house bank. The stock "car style" alternator is not designed to put out the high amount of power (both volts and amps) (long term) needed to properly recharge a larger house bank using FLA, AGM, Gel, etc. batteries. If that is the main method (stock alternator) you will be habitually undercharged. My advice is be patient, a good local boat will come up, but you will need to act quickly and keep out a watchful eye.
Good luck.

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Originally Posted by firehoser75

Greg,
I mostly agree with OldDan. Moving a boat across the country is full of risks. All may work out well, but maybe not. Depending where from, the boat could be a salvaged boat, extremely sun damaged, etc. That can be checked out. It is a lot of potential problems and effort, to ship a boat that does not meet your wants and needs. I would wait and find one closer to home.
After boating around these parts (PNW) for years, I agree you are on the right track as to what you think is the perfect PNW boat (both make and equipment ).
Hydronic heat costs more than Airtronic, but can be configured to heat your water. I would still plumb for engine heating as well. There are many days when you motor and then would not waste all that "free" heat and have to pay for your diesel heater as well. Without a generator, propane cooking is the way to go! More solar is better than less solar. Unless your engine has a high output alternator with external regulator, do not depend on the engine for charging the house bank. The stock "car style" alternator is not designed to put out the high amount of power (both volts and amps) (long term) needed to properly recharge a larger house bank using FLA, AGM, Gel, etc. batteries. If that is the main method (stock alternator) you will be habitually undercharged. My advice is be patient, a good local boat will come up, but you will need to act quickly and keep out a watchful eye.
Good luck.

Good counsel form all of you, and I thank you.

I actually have a offer in on this boat at a price (including shipping) that works assuming everyone is being forthright with condition etc. If the offer is not accepted we are out. If it is, we begin the due diligence process. Included in this process is an engine analysis, a survey and a sea trial. I can walk at any time. Of course each of these experts will cost $$. I am also going to have a shipping contract in hand with a qualified, insured, experienced shipper. The price, if accepted will reflect the lack of a generator. Again - if there is deceit involved that I can't uncover in the survey this could get ugly.

If everyone is honest and realistic, issues can be identified, bids can be obtained, and work can be done. I think I am going into this with open eyes. I am twitchy about undisclosed problems and will bolt if I get uncomfortable.

Some of this is $$$ related. I cannot afford a perfect new boat, so I am forced to take on risk and hassle. Both shave the price. There appears to be some regional price differences in the country right now on certain boats as well. Again... risk, and potentially reward.

We will see!

I really do appreciate all the feedback, even if I disagree with some of it. Good ideas, good details, some experiences that are similar that have worked out well.

Plus, OldDan won't give me his boat. I tried.

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Originally Posted by OldDan1943

Your money, I am not going to tell you how to spend. Just walk away NOW.

It costs a lot of your money to ship the broken boat across the country and then even more or your money to repair all that does not work.

Oh. So you are going to give me your boat then? I thought we have been over this!

[OldDan1943]

Originally Posted by Greg Salish Cruiser

Oh. So you are going to give me your boat then? I thought we have been over this!

Greg, hold your breath or bring about $375K
Ah, my generator works too.
Drop it off at American Tug and they can convert it to a "west coast boat" for even more of your money.

Honestly, you may not see the immediate need for a generator but, you will in the future.
Search out for a "west coast boat" and start from there.

[bligh]

Originally Posted by Greg Salish Cruiser

Spectacularly helpful. I hadn't thought of the whole boat dehumidifier. Brilliant, also may be accomplished by running the A/C maybe? I was budgeting about 15K for my equipment upgrades and 13.5 for my shipping, which, as you say is somewhat covered by the market premium we pay for boats in this glorious cruising grounds. Some of it wouldn't be "covered", but I would have it just the way I wanted. My labor of course is free, and only a so-so deal at that. but it sounds like I am in the ballpark if I can buy the boat right.

Apparently Sure marine (about three miles from where I keep the boat) are some of the best in the business in the hydronic heat world. They sell an appropriately sized "kit" for DIY folks that runs about 5K. They said it runs about that much again to hire someone to do install. I figure I can do some of the work but will either hire out the final testing etc. or I will get it surveyed at completion to make sure it is compliant / I don't die. It looks like a pretty straightforward conversion to propane galley. I am figuring $1,500 for a range, $1,000 for tank, regulators, locker, solenoid, sniffer, alarm etc and maybe a bit for testing. I am aware of and undaunted by the risk and regulations around propane systems. You don't screw around - it needs to be perfect, redundantly tested, safeguarded and compliant. I did a natural gas install on my house. Paid to have the system pressure tested before I went live. They call me captain careful for a reason!

So I am at $7,500. Because it is DIY and a boat job at that, I am guessing it will be double my estimate for some reason not yet determined (Probably needing to hire some of it out when I get frustrated, bored, etc). Super scientific right? Years of experience at this. It will be that much for some reason. If I am wrong I will greedily gobble up the $$ for inverter, solar and batteries.

All vs $15K for a new genset. And your way replaces some pretty old bits of gear at the same time. (Galley, A/C, Domestic Hot water, Genset already gone)

All theoretical at this point. But.... Your story validates my idea that you end up with a sweetly configured boat for the PNW. It also lets me know I am in the ballpark with regard to $$.

Now the hard part. Acquire boat at price that works!

I think i would wait for the right boat that is closer. Thereis a gang at rio vista , CA with a bunch of 32's . you should try to connect with them and see who is selling next. You could try SFBANTA.


Or why not buy the Manatee advertised here on TF? Its certainly a better deal and a whole lot more boat than any NT32 on the market.

[Mako]

Originally Posted by DDW

The dehumidifier (which was a bit of an experiment) has been one of the best improvements. The PNW can be pretty humid as you know, and can feel downright sultry at temps above 75 or so. The dehumidifier has fixed that and kept the boat dry 100% of the time.

How many watts per hour (taking into account duty cycle) is the dehumidifier using? Wondering how long it would operate off your battery bank/inverter

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Originally Posted by OldDan1943

Greg, hold your breath or bring about $375K
Ah, my generator works too.
Drop it off at American Tug and they can convert it to a "west coast boat" for even more of your money.

Honestly, you may not see the immediate need for a generator but, you will in the future.
Search out for a "west coast boat" and start from there.

Believe me I spent a loooooong time trying to find a local boat. I still look every day!

Thanks for weighing in and being such a sport about my goofing with you. Pretty good group around here. Considering it is the internet and we are all over the country it is downright amazing.

[DDW]

Originally Posted by Mako

How many watts per hour (taking into account duty cycle) is the dehumidifier using? Wondering how long it would operate off your battery bank/inverter

When you first turn it on it runs for awhile continuously (maybe a couple of hours) as it first dries the air, then all the moisture in upholstery, woodwork, etc. Then it begins to cycle and the cycles lengthen. Staring with ambient typical of the PNW (70 - 80%) in a well soaked boat, it takes about a day to reach new equilibrium at say 55%. At that point it is running about 20 - 30% of the time. So from a 12V battery at 450W call it 50A at 25% duty cycle, or an average of 13 A. When we run it in the evening at anchor it usually adds about 40 - 50 AH to our deficit. I turn it off before bed. Start it the next morning. In the mean time humidity of the air has climbed from 55 to 65 or 70 but most of the materials are still dry so within a short time it's back to equilibrium. If I ever get back to my boat (in Canada) I will instrument this a little better.

With it on, the windows don't fog, the towels dry, and everything feels dry and fresh.

[FF]

A 32 ft boat in the PNW , where it never gets REALLY cold can easily be heated with an oil fired range.

The Dickinson Pacific would work well for the cold season , works well on the hook as it does not require electric.

An optional internal coil or an exhaust pipe coil can create hot water for domestic use.

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Originally Posted by FF

A 32 ft boat in the PNW , where it never gets REALLY cold can easily be heated with an oil fired range.

The Dickinson Pacific would work well for the cold season , works well on the hook as it does not require electric.

An optional internal coil or an exhaust pipe coil can create hot water for domestic use.

Thanks, I will have a look!

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Originally Posted by rsn48

I haven't read all the responses. I will give you my ideal boat which amazingly enough... lol ..., just happens to resemble my boat. Be aware I just finished a multi-hundred thousand refit.

So I will just describe - TO ME - the perfect PNW and coastal BC boat.

1. The boat has hydronic heating which also heats your hot water as well as the boat. You don't need a hot water tank tied into your boat engine, nice but not necessary. When you show up to your boat to depart, turn the hot water tank (AC selection) on to heat water before you leave the dock. With the small tank you will have that can be done amazingly quickly - 15 to 20 minutes. When on the hook, that same tank takes its heat from the hydronic heater. Note: I got Espar but I think Hurricane might be better, check that claim out.

2. A cockpit with either a hard or soft bimini (I prefer hard, I have soft). The top of the bimini, especially a hard one is a great place for solar power. Soft walls that can roll down, this is good for the rain we get in our respective areas. And if you head into the Broughtons and Alaska (the plague will leave), it get colder and rainier even in summer. And a statistic I still find hard to believe, but Ketchican has more rain in July than Seattle does in November, now that's saying something. So in those wretched rain periods (you are going to use your boat in the off season, aren't you?) you can sip the champagne in the cockpit and contemplate how great life is.

My buddy just bought a NT 32 about a month and half ago so I've been on it twice. The cockpit area is small but still worth it to have extra livable space.

3. Get batteries, either lithium or fireflies that provide a deeper discharge rate, can stand abuse and neglect, charge fast and will last a long time. I have 6 fireflies that provides 700 amp of power at full discharge, and 560 amps to 20 % discharge (you can do that with these two types of batteries).

4. Add solar, don't bother asking how much, add as much as you can. No one has ever been heard to say they wish they hadn't added as much solar as they did. My refit guy disappointed me in this regard. My panels are three 100 watts but the space could easily handled three 150 watts.

5. No generator, you don't need one as long as you don't add big ticket electrical appliances or a jacuzzi. On the hook you can still use a toaster, microwave, hair blower (set on medium heat and medium blow).

6. Higher amp alternator - 140 to 200 amps. Or add a second one.

7. Efoy. There are three levels of Efoy - 80, 140, 210. Efoy is a methanol fuel cell. The best way to understand a fuel cell on your boat is this - imagine you have a solar panel system that works in the dark, in the light, under all conditions for 24 hours a day if you want. I have the Efoy 210 and it puts out slight lower than 8 amps an hour for as long as I leave it on, or just turn it on in certain situations, which is what I do. You won't use the Efoy unit much during the summer but as you head into off season with lots of cloud, you will use it much more. And power draw goes up in the off season, fans on your hydronic heater for example so your fuel cell is helpful then.

8. Dual system for running your boat. So I have a two burner Force 10 stove/oven that runs on propane. And of course a BBQ. So when the boat is on the hook in off season, I run the propane stove and BBQ. I run the hydronic heater to heat the cabin and hot water.

I also have a small convection oven and induction plate. When I'm at a marina, the Scottish comes out in me and I want to use the power I paid for, so I cook with the convection oven or BBQ, and induction cooking. Use the propane when I need to, don't use the propane when I don't need to.

In the above scenarios of batteries, fuel cell, solar and alternator, you can use the microwave (I do for about 5 minutes a day), toaster (I do for about 6 minutes a day), TV (I only watch DVD's, but my 28 inch tv is 50 watts), and lights etc. on the hook and can generate enough amps every day to be out for a long time on the hook.

Really helpful, thank you! I am going to write a book when I finally get this all decided. Of course it is everyone else that is doing the work!!

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Some A/C units have a dedicated dehumidify mode. Personally, as long as they work, I'd just keep the A/Cs even if you don't need them for cooling often.

Being that the boat is already wired for a genset, you could get one in there for $10k or less. As an example, a 6.5kw Phasor unit is about $8000 from what I can find.

As far as electric vs propane galley, don't forget to factor in fuel types. With solar / battery / inverter / genset and an electric galley, you just have 1 fuel type that does everything (diesel). There's a convenience benefit to that vs needing to fill propane tanks.

You're going to want solar and an inverter no matter which way you go, as having a way to power smaller stuff from the batteries is very useful. And depending on just how much solar you can fit, how big an inverter you install and the size of the battery bank, you may even be able to do a bit of electric cooking (at least coffee and breakfast) without needing the genset.

You'll also want diesel fired heat no matter what, as nobody wants to run a genset non-stop for heat when away from the dock.

That seems to be the calculus. diesel heat for sure, either air or hydronic. Leaning towards hydronic because it also would give us hot water. Solar, inverter and battery upgrade and probably propane which is quite easy around here. I went pretty far down the electric galley path and it seem not quite there yet. Oh so close! I also went down the diesel cooking path and it just seems a little too "custom / quirky". Still learning though!

Thanks for weighing in!

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Originally Posted by bligh

I think i would wait for the right boat that is closer. Thereis a gang at rio vista , CA with a bunch of 32's . you should try to connect with them and see who is selling next. You could try SFBANTA.


Or why not buy the Manatee advertised here on TF? Its certainly a better deal and a whole lot more boat than any NT32 on the market.

Good advice, I will look at these (again) today!

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Originally Posted by DDW

As bought from the east coast, microwave but no inverter. So yes, genset had to be started to have tea. Back in the SE, the assumption is the genset is running all the time because AC is necessary to support life in that climate.



As I said, just make sure you (and the trucker) know the height. Big difference in cost in just a few inches. My AT34 is higher on the trailer than my 45' deep keel sailboat and cost $4K more east -> west just because of that. On the AT, in 2 states, lead car had to run entire route through the state and back before the permit is issued to move the boat. Lead car with pole needed for entire route.

I like the ITR better than the Webasto/Espar but there are opinions both ways. One thing for sure, the ITR heat exchangers put out their spec in heat and the REAL ones don't - I've installed several of each on both my boats. The problem with the REAL is the fans are wimpy even though the units are good quality. Even their biggest fan has tiny airflow compared to the ITR.

The dehumidifier is the SanteFe Ultra Aire 70H. It fits in the same space as the AC unit it replaced. You need a short 8"-7" adapter to fit it to typical boat AC ductwork.

You are saving me so much work! I owe you a few beers...

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Greg Salish Cruiser

That seems to be the calculus. diesel heat for sure, either air or hydronic. Leaning towards hydronic because it also would give us hot water. Solar, inverter and battery upgrade and probably propane which is quite easy around here. I went pretty far down the electric galley path and it seem not quite there yet. Oh so close! I also went down the diesel cooking path and it just seems a little too "custom / quirky". Still learning though!

Thanks for weighing in!

Diesel cooking is definitely more on the quirky side. For electric, it all comes down to being able to produce enough power. In general, it gets easier on a bigger boat, as you can fit more solar and batteries. On smaller boats, it's hard to go 100% electric without a generator.