Canada extends cruise ship ban until Feb 2022

[rsn48]

rsn48, if I've interpreted the relationship wrongly, my apologies.

No apology, you got it right.

A mistake I make often is not to state the obvious, easy to muck up what's going on in my brain and what makes it to paper, so to speak.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Well I for one of course want cruise ships back, and yes I care!

Here is how many here think about this whole idea of "closing" businesses and entire industries...

We were told that we needed to close businesses so that the public health care system would not be overwhelmed.

My friend that risk has long passed. Here in Alaska and I think nationwide hospitalization rates are WAY down.

The original risk is gone, so we need to have our businesses open for business so they can make a living, employ people, etc... All the things that businesses do.

People can make their own choices. They can prevent catching this through PPE and sanitary protocols. Or they can choose not to do any of that, it's their choice.

They can choose to vaccinate themselves as a risk mitigation mechanism, or they can choose not to. Again, their choice, their risk.

So... our wanting to open up our businesses is not some sort of selfish greed as implied by some, it is simply acting rationaly now that the original reason for shuttering those businesses is gone.

And for the record I am vaccinated, and have followed pretty strict protocols for over a year now. My body, my choice.

Yes I am tired of hearing about COVID 24/7.

The lockdown of small businesses was wrong. There is no science that would back it up. Common sense was not tolerated.

Some of you will point to this report, that report, but it doesn't matter. If it did, ALL the big box stores, liquor and Pot stores ect, would have been shut down too. I mean ALL of them, except food stores.

So why wasn't it done? Politics. Plain and simple. Keep the common man down. Still going on. Some of the politicians that still have thier State or Province in lockdown have tasted total power and they do not want to give it up.

Now regarding criese ships. To me the cruise ship companies are like the big box stores. They want to stay open, touting the small businesses.

This is true, however all the store fronts in Juneau, K-Town are owened by the cruise ship companies. It the fishing charter, tour guide, air tour is where small businesses come in, not the company store.

Kevin, good post.

End of rant/soap box

 

[FWT]

I have never taken a cruise. Its been 30 years since I was last in Canada, and had no particular plans to go.

But my question to the group is more business / infrastructure related.

I'm just curious, why is it necessary to announce a ban that lasts for a solid year when the covid situation is so fluid? Is it a case of needing to plan shoreside logistics and reservations timelines? I'd think rolling 90 day windows would allow for changes in the dynamics better.

Any insights?

 

[Frosty]

I'm just curious, why is it necessary to announce a ban that lasts for a solid year when the covid situation is so fluid?

My thought is that this is, an effect, a ban for this upcoming summer season. Reason I say that is that I doubt many cruise ships go up the Inside Passage to Alaska after.... September? Next season will start in when... May? (I think they use the ships for other places in the off season - places most people would want to travel would be warmer and nicer.)

So in effect they are saying "plan something else for this season." Opening even as late as next February would be in plenty of time for next season for the big cruise ships (and I imagine if something changes between now and next Feb they will re-visit).

In summary, just due to the way the cruise ship seasons and the Alaskan season work, I don't think this is much different than just saying "not this summer."

I'm not the Canadian gov't though, so just thinking out loud.

 

[ssobol]

The problem is that even if you have no symptoms you could be spreading a deadly disease to someone who could have a bad outcome. Since people don't seem to intuitively get this, the government has to impose rules on everybody.

As often occurs, everybody pays the price for the worst behaved.

 

[ksanders]

The problem is that even if you have no symptoms you could be spreading a deadly disease to someone who could have a bad outcome. Since people don't seem to intuitively get this, the government has to impose rules on everybody.

As often occurs, everybody pays the price for the worst behaved.

Not really.

If I go out in public i have the choice to wear a mask. I have a choice to wipe off the shopping cart. I have the choice to use hand sanitizer.

I could be surrounded by folks with Covid and never catch it.

Or I could choose not to protect myself, and my risk goes up. My choice.

The problem you have is that you cannot, or you should not bankrupt a business owner, while allowing a slightly different business owner to remain open, to protect people from their own lack of taking the initiative to protect themselves.

This is not March 2020 any more. We have had a year to learn and adapt. People know what to do to protect themselves. There is nothing to be scared of when you know what you are dealing with.

Cruise ships are a great example. You can choose to get on one or you can choose to stay home. Personally I would not dream of getting on a cruise ship unless I was vaccinated but that is just my choice. Others should be allowed to make their own choice, and the cruise ship companies can choose further the criteria for passengers on their ships.

 

[jhall767]

I have never taken a cruise. Its been 30 years since I was last in Canada, and had no particular plans to go.

But my question to the group is more business / infrastructure related.

I'm just curious, why is it necessary to announce a ban that lasts for a solid year when the covid situation is so fluid? Is it a case of needing to plan shoreside logistics and reservations timelines? I'd think rolling 90 day windows would allow for changes in the dynamics better.

Any insights?

BINGO! It's about control. No science needed or involved in this decision.

 

[ssobol]

Not really.

If I go out in public i have the choice to wear a mask. I have a choice to wipe off the shopping cart. I have the choice to use hand sanitizer.

I could be surrounded by folks with Covid and never catch it.

Or I could choose not to protect myself, and my risk goes up. My choice.

The problem you have is that you cannot, or you should not bankrupt a business owner, while allowing a slightly different business owner to remain open, to protect people from their own lack of taking the initiative to protect themselves.

This is not March 2020 any more. We have had a year to learn and adapt. People know what to do to protect themselves. There is nothing to be scared of when you know what you are dealing with.

Cruise ships are a great example. You can choose to get on one or you can choose to stay home. Personally I would not dream of getting on a cruise ship unless I was vaccinated but that is just my choice. Others should be allowed to make their own choice, and the cruise ship companies can choose further the criteria for passengers on their ships.

IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU GETTING SICK!!!!!

It's about you making others sick, possibly killing them. Why is that so hard for people to understand??????

I don't really care if you get sick. However, if you make me sick because you choose to ignore the rules, that I have a problem with.

 

[Frosty]

Cruise ships are a great example. You can choose to get on one or you can choose to stay home.

And if you live in a relatively remote place where they stop, you can choose to move someplace else.

Okay, I know that sounds harsh, but I feel there is a grain of truth. I do agree with you that we can all choose to do what makes sense. But I also hear a number of posts that sound to me like "Well, if you don't want to be killed by a drunk driver then just stay home," which doesn't sound fair to me.

Is a cruise ship company going to make sure that their passengers all wear proper masks when they are "in town." From what I have seen, many profit-making businesses don't want to "come down on" paying customers (or don't have the staff to make sure everyone is complying with guidelines).

I don't worry about the people ON the cruise; as you say, they chose it. But I do have concerns for the cruise ship workers, the local workers, and the local citizenry in places they go. IMO.

 

[MurrayM]

This makes total sense:

The problem is that even if you have no symptoms you could be spreading a deadly disease to someone who could have a bad outcome. Since people don't seem to intuitively get this, the government has to impose rules on everybody.

As often occurs, everybody pays the price for the worst behaved.

This is why the numbers are so high in the US:

Not really.

If I go out in public i have the choice to wear a mask. I have a choice to wipe off the shopping cart. I have the choice to use hand sanitizer.

I could be surrounded by folks with Covid and never catch it.

Or I could choose not to protect myself, and my risk goes up. My choice.

The problem you have is that you cannot, or you should not bankrupt a business owner, while allowing a slightly different business owner to remain open, to protect people from their own lack of taking the initiative to protect themselves.

This is not March 2020 any more. We have had a year to learn and adapt. People know what to do to protect themselves. There is nothing to be scared of when you know what you are dealing with.

Cruise ships are a great example. You can choose to get on one or you can choose to stay home. Personally I would not dream of getting on a cruise ship unless I was vaccinated but that is just my choice. Others should be allowed to make their own choice, and the cruise ship companies can choose further the criteria for passengers on their ships.

Some of the new variants spread much easier and faster than Covid did in March last year.

You could stop and ponder the firmness of a melon in the grocery store for a few minutes while someone who's pre-symptomatic (but at their most contagious stage) is talking to their spouse 9' away from you.

Two loose fitting masks (masks reduce risk, they don't eliminate it) and you get it...or worse yet...someone who works there gets it and keeps working even though they have mild symptoms (because they can't afford to take time off, or can't get sick pay & stay home) and even more people get it.

You don't have to be talking face to face for over five minutes less than 6' apart anymore.

There will be heaps of sociological studies coming up. Will be interesting to compare how societies that very much distrust their governments compare to societies that tend to trust their governments...also...comparing countries who's politicians disregarded the risk to those countries which had politicians who implemented measures to mitigate the risk.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU GETTING SICK!!!!!

It's about you making others sick, possibly killing them. Why is that so hard for people to understand??????

I don't really care if you get sick. However, if you make me sick because you choose to ignore the rules, that I have a problem with.

I agree Kevin.

Yeah we get it. We just don't believe in your socialism rants. Freedom of choice. If you are that scared, may I suggest you stay in your house, have your food delivered and don't forget to wear your mask indoors too.

Otherwise come on outside, the weather is just fine. We have our choices too.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

BINGO! It's about control. No science needed or involved in this decision.

Yes it is. However there are some here on TF that believe in a socialist agenda.

 

[Benthic2]

Cruise Lines need time to guage demand and sell the tickets. Cruise lines are mothballing their ships ( or destroying them ) and don't want to activate them unless they know they can get above a certain occupancy. A cruise line can advertise and take bookings for a year from know when the ban ends because they have some certainty that things will be better by then. Cruise passengers don't want to book a cruise in 90 days knowing it might get cancelled, either by gov't mandate, or the cruise line because not enough tickets were sold.

Ultimately this will probably lead to consolidation or collusion within the cruise line industry. Whenever the "green light" is given not every company can have a ship up there. It won't make sense for 5 cruise lines to each run a ship at 40% occupancy. There will be a strong temptation for some back channel talk like "you take Alaska, I'll get the Bahamas and we'll leave the Carribean for them"

 

[ksanders]

IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU GETTING SICK!!!!!

It's about you making others sick, possibly killing them. Why is that so hard for people to understand??????

I don't really care if you get sick. However, if you make me sick because you choose to ignore the rules, that I have a problem with.

If You choose to protect yourself you will not get sick.

Each of us need to be responsible for our own safety. Each of us need to make personal decisions regarding the risks we take.

If you do not want to get sick, then simply protect yourself.

Do not tell the cruise ship company, or the shop down the street, or the corner deli that they are out of business because you refuse to protect yourself from a known risk.

I have some news for you... The virus is out in your community. It there every day, and all it takes is you touching the gas pump handle, or the shopping cart, or any surface and you can get sick. Or you can choose to protect yourself. Wash your hands. Use hand sanitizer.

Don't tell the local business that they cannot exist, and that their owners have to lose everything because you choose not to assume responsibility for your own actions.

 

[soin2la]

So in effect they are saying "plan something else for this season." Opening even as late as next February would be in plenty of time for next season for the big cruise ships (and I imagine if something changes between now and next Feb they will re-visit).

In summary, just due to the way the cruise ship seasons and the Alaskan season work, I don't think this is much different than just saying "not this summer."

Pretty much the case, yes.
The original ban announced March 2020, was extended several times, leaving cruise companies and customers in limbo. In Feb 2021, the ban was extended to Feb 2022. At that time it was stated, it would give everyone some sense of certainty.

This is not March 2020 any more. We have had a year to learn and adapt. People know what to do to protect themselves. There is nothing to be scared of when you know what you are dealing with.

While I don’t disagree with your economic and business position, I think your risk assessment is too simple. Alaska receives 1.4 million cruise ship passengers over a 6 month period; many calling at tiny ports like Ketchican with a population of 8,000 and limited health care.

Likewise, 700,000 passengers are disgorged in Victoria with a population of 92,000.

Yes people know what to do, but this very forum has examples every day of people knowing and not doing.

I see the same lack of care and attention on the sidewalks every day; I get tired of walking in traffic to avoid the dolts.

 

[Frosty]

.

Yeah we get it. We just don't believe in your socialism rants. Freedom of choice. If you are that scared, may I suggest you stay in your house, have your food delivered and don't forget to wear your mask indoors too.

Interesting that the new definition of Socialism, seems to someone who posts anything you don't agree with. I guess then there are quite a number of Socialists here (pleased to meet you).

I think what you are saying sounds like "If you don't want to be killed by a drunk diver, then stay home." (My "socialist" view would be that drunk drivers should not be allowed to drive freely with my only recourse being to stay home. IOW, the drunk drivers get their freedom while I have to curtail mine to avoid them.)

Let's take another example: There is a speed limit in your residential neighborhood of 25 mph. Well for starters, that encroaches on my freedom! I should be able to drive 80mph down your street. Your children/grandma/dog would be much more likely to be killed, obviously. But you could just keep them all indoors 24/7 so my freedom could be indulged. (I think that would be totally wrong; speed limits exist for the common good, even in a capitalist society.

Anyway, it sounds like cooperating for the good of fellow citizens, even to the point of trying to end a pandemic is "socialism"?

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Cruise Lines need time to guage demand and sell the tickets. Cruise lines are mothballing their ships ( or destroying them ) and don't want to activate them unless they know they can get above a certain occupancy. A cruise line can advertise and take bookings for a year from know when the ban ends because they have some certainty that things will be better by then. Cruise passengers don't want to book a cruise in 90 days knowing it might get cancelled, either by gov't mandate, or the cruise line because not enough tickets were sold.

Ultimately this will probably lead to consolidation or collusion within the cruise line industry. Whenever the "green light" is given not every company can have a ship up there. It won't make sense for 5 cruise lines to each run a ship at 40% occupancy. There will be a strong temptation for some back channel talk like "you take Alaska, I'll get the Bahamas and we'll leave the Carribean for them"

Yeah sad. The era of cruising maybe done or curtailed.

I know some folks in Juneau and K-Town are happy with no ships. They get their city back.

 

[Benthic2]

Come on guys......keep this about Cruise ships and whether the border will open for recreational boaters.

We just had a thread go a few hundred posts and NO ONE had an epiphany and changed their minds on the merits of masks, lockdowns, vaccines or social distancing.

We have all had a year+ to form our opinions and we are all convinced we are on the right side of things.

Maybe we need a special "no holds barred", "enter at your own risk" unmoderated Covid thread so people have a place to get this out of their system......But lets keep this one focused on Cruise and Border issues.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Come on guys......keep this about Cruise ships and whether the border will open for recreational boaters.

We just had a thread go a few hundred posts and NO ONE had an epiphany and changed their minds on the merits of masks, lockdowns, vaccines or social distancing.

We have all had a year+ to form our opinions and we are all convinced we are on the right side of things.

Maybe we need a special "no holds barred", "enter at your own risk" unmoderated Covid thread so people have a place to get this out of their system......But lets keep this one focused on Cruise and Border issues.

Good point and reasonable.

 

[Frosty]

ksanders,

I wanted to give another reason why giving the "business owners" of cruise ships free reign to cruise right now makes me nervous.

I used to work in the outdoor industry. One example would be a dive/cruise day boat. Picture a large pontoon boat with 50 snorkelers and an open bar (you could buy alcoholic drinks).

The "rules" were that you were not supposed to let people drink so much they'd be drunk. It was dangerous for them (now you are swimming in the ocean drunk), and also dangerous for the other customers who were not drinking (you get in trouble for some other reason but the staff are so busy dealing with the drunk people that you and your issue not even seen).

But what if the staff did try to limit the drinking? That was kind of taboo because in that type of industry (people on vacation) you aren't supposed to be negative. AND, they make a lot of money selling drinks. So if anyone were to say anything (say if one of the employees on board said "hey, no more drinks for you!" then you could get in trouble. Everyone is having fun! Don't rain on that parade! The customer is king! (And the drinks profits are nice too.)

From that experience I formed an opinion that people in business will not always police themselves. It's especially hard in the "fun" business where it's not good to say anything to customers that might be "negative." That's not to say rules should be punitive, but just that I don't think it's realistic to think that cruise ship owners will do what's best for communities if left to their own devices.

I just don't see how cruise ship employees would be able to make sure that the thousands of passengers, say, adhered to guidelines while in port. And so then it's "locals just stay home if you don't want to deal with it." That doesn't seem fair.

(Remember how cruise ships kept taking passengers on board even after it was obvious COVID would be a huge problem?)

That's the basis of my concern.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

So to get back on track.

Sea Venture made it to Alaska last spring doing the "Transient B.C." thing. They posted a video of their experience.

It will be interesting to see what happens when they head back to Washington this summer.

I read were B.C. is starting to reduce restrictions, so this is a good sign.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

ksanders,

I wanted to give another reason why giving the "business owners" of cruise ships free reign to cruise right now makes me nervous.

I used to work in the outdoor industry. One example would be a dive/cruise day boat. Picture a large pontoon boat with 50 snorkelers and an open bar (you could buy alcoholic drinks).

The "rules" were that you were not supposed to let people drink so much they'd be drunk. It was dangerous for them (now you are swimming in the ocean drunk), and also dangerous for the other customers who were not drinking (you get in trouble for some other reason but the staff are so busy dealing with the drunk people that you and your issue not even seen).

But what if the staff did try to limit the drinking? That was kind of taboo because in that type of industry (people on vacation) you aren't supposed to be negative. AND, they make a lot of money selling drinks. So if anyone were to say anything (say if one of the employees on board said "hey, no more drinks for you!" then you could get in trouble. Everyone is having fun! Don't rain on that parade! The customer is king! (And the drinks profits are nice too.)

From that experience I formed an opinion that people in business will not always police themselves. It's especially hard in the "fun" business where it's not good to say anything to customers that might be "negative." That's not to say rules should be punitive, but just that I don't think it's realistic to think that cruise ship owners will do what's best for communities if left to their own devices.

I just don't see how cruise ship employees would be able to make sure that the thousands of passengers, say, adhered to guidelines while in port. And so then it's "locals just stay home if you don't want to deal with it." That doesn't seem fair.

(Remember how cruise ships kept taking passengers on board even after it was obvious COVID would be a huge problem?)

That's the basis of my concern.

Ok so how do you explain the hugh differance between Florida and California? Florida is open, while Cali is still shut down. They have relatively the same stats per capita.

Yea I know. Couldn't help my self.

 

[ksanders]

While I don’t disagree with your economic and business position, I think your risk assessment is too simple. Alaska receives 1.4 million cruise ship passengers over a 6 month period; many calling at tiny ports like Ketchican with a population of 8,000 and limited health care.

Likewise, 700,000 passengers are disgorged in Victoria with a population of 92,000.

Yes people know what to do, but this very forum has examples every day of people knowing and not doing.

I see the same lack of care and attention on the sidewalks every day; I get tired of walking in traffic to avoid the dolts.

Here is a Great example of a real cruise ship town.

I keep my boat in Seward Alaska. We are Cruise Ship dependent. We are a tourist driven economy.

In Seward Alaska the Covid case rate was really high in the beginning and then people learned. Now we have a VERY low case rate.

Why... That is easy to see. If you go to the store everybody has a mask on. Everybody washes off their shopping cart. Everybody seems to be making choices to minimize their personal risk.

Bring back our cruise ships and nothing will change. We know how this spreads, and we know what to do to minimize the risks.

Compare this to the Matanuska Susitna borough where I make my home. We have the highest per population case rate in the state.

Why???... Again it's easy to see. Almost nobody wears a mask. Almost nobody wipes a shopping cart down. People seem to be making choices not to protect themselves, and our case rate reflects that behavior.

But... That is their choice, and it should be. As long as so many are not sick in the hospital as to deny someone with a non Covid related issue medical care or a hospital bed, then it's frankly their choice to make.

Even though I choose to protect myself it is not any of my business what they do.

 

[Frosty]

Ok so how do you explain the hugh differance between Florida and California? Florida is open, while Cali is still shut down. They have relatively the same stats per capita.

Did you mean to post this to me in this thread? If so, I can't answer, because I don't know what the Cruise Ship rules are right now in California or Florida or how they relate to Canada's making rules for Cruise Ships transiting their waters to Alaska.

 

[Lou_tribal]

It is a bit more complex than being cautious, being sick or nor and others being sick or not.
It is more about keeping things manageable. Keep in mind that a part of people being sick need care, and care are given in an hospital, and all hospitals together have a limited capacity and need also to care about other disease.
Any measure put in place is not about this or that, socialism or any politic flavor, but just ways to try to reduce as much as possible risk for people as a whole to get sick and reduce the risk of overflowing care systems with massive number of sick people so to keep this manageable.
And for those who think this does not apply to them, just think a minute to be in a situation where you need immediate care, knocking at the hospital door, to be told that there is no more space for you, or even worse, nobody to open the door anymore...

L

 

[soin2la]

I read were B.C. is starting to reduce restrictions, so this is a good sign.

You read wrong.
Our Provincial Health Authorities have said if we all continue to behave nicely and there are no new negative developements, we could see some easing of restrictions "in the coming weeks."

That easing will apply to outside gatherings, sporting events, larger personal bubbles etc. All things which will allow BC people to expand our freedom of movement, a bit more. Absolutely nothing to do with borders, cruise ships or your transient life in our waters.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

You read wrong.
Our Provincial Health Authorities have said if we all continue to behave nicely and there are no new negative developements, we could see some easing of restrictions "in the coming weeks."

That easing will apply to outside gatherings, sporting events, larger personal bubbles etc. All things which will allow BC people to expand our freedom of movement, a bit more. Absolutely nothing to do with borders, cruise ships or your transient life in our waters.

Nor did I state it involved boarders or cruise ships. Just a general statement. I did not mis-read.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

So if restrictions are eased (soin2la might happen even with your disapproval) do you think mom and pop marinas in B.C. will be ready? Do you think some will just shutdown anyway?

 

[OldDan1943]

This is a classic Should we be concerned? yes. Should we wear mask to reduce transmission? Yes
This has been a gold mine for the media? Yes
Should we panic? Just use common sense.
I could go on and on but I am on my cell phone and typing is a bit difficult.

 

[OldDan1943]

Sadly, some mom and pop will go belly up because they have lost there seasonal customers.