Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-05-2017, 07:50 PM   #41
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: penultimate Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
...
Nope, no regrets at all.
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2017, 08:02 PM   #42
Senior Member
 
Scratchnsaw's Avatar
 
City: SOBX North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
I find it amusing that that folks will stand up on a soap box and tell others that they should never finance something as expensive as a boat.

I have no problem admitting that I financed our boat. Heck it cost way more than my house, and I wasn't ashamed that I had to finance that.

Yes I could have saved dilligently through my 50's and bought the boat with cash right before my planned retirtement.

Instead I have been enjoying, and improving the boat for five wonderful seasons. In four more seasons I will have it paid off and will have had a fantastic time using the boat all those years I could have been saving, and dreaming of someday owning a boat this size.

Instead of "keyboard cruising" my wife and I have been actually cruising, having spent over 60 nights aboard last season alone.

Frankly thats allot funner than checking my bank balance, hoping for "someday". Sitting behind my keyboard while others go to sea.

Nope, no regrets at all.
My opinions on financing a boat are as follows. As a husband and wife team, in the best of times, mainly health related, I don't see a real problem. But over time I have seen total nightmares by mainly the wife, becoming a widow and having the burden fall upon her to deal with unloading the boat when the pair is no longer a team. If you are over mortgaged and or just want to get out from under it, this becomes a REAL problem.

And even with kids, rarely do they even have a clue about the financial details either. Most don't even care as their interests could be 180 from their parents too. We could only hope that the husband and wife tag team knows of all the details.


I willing to bet that few boating couples have the same job descriptions either. So both knowing it all is probably not going to be the case. So I think it is really something to consider when talking about financing or paying cash for a boat.
__________________

Scratchnsaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2017, 08:08 PM   #43
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: penultimate Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,105
Mmmm.. Just donate the boat to a worthy cause and be done with it.
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2017, 08:18 PM   #44
Guru
 
City: Northport
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,723
"For those that will say, "the house appreciates and the boat depreciates", you will do far better buying a small house and investing the monthly mortgage, than the appreciation over time of the house. So, do what works for you. For the record, I didn't finance mine."


Not nearly the way it worked out with us but glad it worked for you.
smitty477 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2017, 08:20 PM   #45
Guru
 
City: Northport
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,723
" If you are over mortgaged and or just want to get out from under it, this becomes a REAL problem"


Not of you can just write a check and pay the loan.
smitty477 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2017, 08:20 PM   #46
Guru
 
City: Hampton, va
Vessel Name: Didi Mau
Vessel Model: 2003 Ocean Alexander 456
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,013
But then again

Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
Don't bet too heavily on that continuing to be possible. Over the long term it has generally been but there are repeatedly significant periods where it isn't likely. For many years now, we've been able to earn more, but I never bet on that to happen the next five or next ten years.
Historically the markets have returned more than 7 percent annually for the last hundred years. For my retirement I am betting on making at Least 4.5. Still slightly more than some loans.
Gordon J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2017, 08:32 PM   #47
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 19,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Mmmm.. Just donate the boat to a worthy cause and be done with it.
You can't donate the boat that still has money owed though.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2017, 08:37 PM   #48
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 19,598
I don't have a problem with anyone financing anything, just don't do it if it's going to create undue stress in your life. Each person needs to know their own capacity for dealing with debt, both financially and emotionally.

If people didn't finance boats, the boat industry wouldn't exist. Probably 95% of the small boats, under 30' or so, are financed. As people move up, most are still financed. But most cars are and most houses are.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2017, 08:48 PM   #49
Senior Member
 
Capt. Jon's Avatar
 
City: Alabama
Vessel Name: Waypoint
Vessel Model: Californian 48' CPMY
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
Why not???

Simple fact is that we are all going to grow old, and we are all going to die.

If you have plenty put away for a nice retirement, why not spend the rest?

We all get this one shot at life, and the old saying is true... You cant take it with you.

So why not put the excess in a boat, or a RV, or spend it on good whiskey, or whatever else you want...

Yep, no hearse's with roof racks pulling U-Hauls at the cemetery!
__________________
Jon
------------------------------------------------
Waypoint's are abstract, often having no obvious relationship to any distinctive features of the real world.
Capt. Jon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2017, 09:09 PM   #50
Moderator Emeritus
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratchnsaw View Post
My opinions on financing a boat are as follows. As a husband and wife team, in the best of times, mainly health related, I don't see a real problem. But over time I have seen total nightmares by mainly the wife, becoming a widow and having the burden fall upon her to deal with unloading the boat when the pair is no longer a team. If you are over mortgaged and or just want to get out from under it, this becomes a REAL problem.

And even with kids, rarely do they even have a clue about the financial details either. Most don't even care as their interests could be 180 from their parents too. We could only hope that the husband and wife tag team knows of all the details.


I willing to bet that few boating couples have the same job descriptions either. So both knowing it all is probably not going to be the case. So I think it is really something to consider when talking about financing or paying cash for a boat.

So really you are defining two problems and I agree with you on both counts.

First is that we need to not over finance a boat. The concept here is that you should be able to realistically sell it, including brokerage fees, etc... for more than you owe... Great advice.

Second is that couples need to protect each ther in case of the untimely demise of one of them. That isn't boating related but also a prudent practice.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2017, 08:56 AM   #51
Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,094
No issue at all with what people choose to do with their own money, so long as it is not coming out of my taxes!!
But for the record, my Selene 47 (1999) was in good condition when acquired in 2006. Because the vessel was owned in an LLC, I actually kept detailed records of all expenditures (incl. fuel, bottom paint, etc) during 8 years of ownership. Much/most of the repairs/maintenance I did myself and we did not undertake any major modifications. Largest single expense was rebuilding the TwinDisc tranny (approx $4000). I included dockage, winterization, storage etc.

Including depreciation at sale and brokerage costs the average ownership cost approximated just under $40K/year for a vessel valued at $400K at sale. I think many owners have no idea what it really costs to maintain a larger vessel, and I think I actually did it "on the cheap". We finally sold the boat, not because of the cost, but because it became too large an obligation of time and we wanted to pursue other activities. During our ownership period we put 1,500 hours on the main engine, lived aboard/used the vessel for approx 65 weeks, and cruised the East Coast and the Bahamas.
We certainly have no regrets and thoroughly enjoyed the time we did own the vessel.
Chrisjs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2017, 10:36 AM   #52
Senior Member
 
Alabama Boater's Avatar
 
City: Athens, AL
Vessel Name: Always Something!
Vessel Model: Tiara 3700 open
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 104
Reading through the many post on this budgeting topic, I can make several observations. What I call fixed costs are not always related to boat value. Example: slip or mooring fees Ö a 40í covered wet slip in my area is $300 a month Ö doesnít matter if boat is worth $35K or $350K but if boat is worth $35K the yearly cost is already over the 10%. Engine and generator maintenance costs are related to number, displacement, accessibility, location. Not boat value. If engine service is DIY then only material costs are involved. My 200 hr engine service cost for engines/trans/gen, materials only, is $250. The receipts I have from the PO, in Forth Lauderdale, indicated $800 for the same service. This is a large cost difference. A raw water impeller change costs me $60.00 not $400.00. I feel sorry for my PO, as indicated by the receipts I have, he paid out over $42K for service and repairs in 2 years. Over $10K for re-do of things he did not get done correctly the first time. He did not know!! A new boater can work up an ownership budget but must also be diligent that he/she is truly getting what they need and pay for.



I donít budget for my boating. If I need it, it gets done. If I want it, I search for the best pricing, and get it. If I was not DIY, Iím sure it would be different.
Alabama Boater is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2017, 01:52 PM   #53
Guru
 
Heron's Avatar
 
City: Cypress Landing Marina (NC)
Vessel Name: Heron (2)
Vessel Model: '88 Cape Dory 28 Flybridge #115
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,303
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
We don't budget.

Ditto...I can't even place a $$ amount on what I get out of boating. I've never regretted a single dollar..(and there have been plenty)
__________________
Steve
Heron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2017, 03:54 PM   #54
Guru
 
River Cruiser's Avatar
 
City: UMR MM283
Vessel Name: Northern Lights II
Vessel Model: Bayliner 3870
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,357
I have a general idea what the yearly cost will be, not from tracking cost but from paying the tab every year. I enjoy living on my boat so whatever the cost I'll pay plus I do the large majority of maintenance labor myself.
__________________
Ron on Northern Lights II
I don't like making plans for the day because the word "premeditated" gets thrown around in the courtroom.
River Cruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2017, 05:05 PM   #55
Senior Member
 
cool beans's Avatar
 
City: Norfolk, VA
Vessel Model: Bayliner 3870
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty477 View Post
"Have never budgeted for any boats I have owned, and probably never will. I went thru your list as it pertains to my newly purchased boat and stopped at $80k outside of purchase price If I had numbers like that in front of me before I thought about doing what I'm doing. . .I wouldn't have done what I have done "


Cool Beans - How could that possibly be? We have followed you on the other site thru your purchase and saw no evidence that it would be anywhere near that amount.
What the heck happened?

Nothing happened, I hope my post didn't imply that My response was in context to BandB's original post and list of things to budget for. I used my boat as an example, and made a rough estimate based on her list. Unless I misread the list, it basically asks you to eventually plan on rebuilding/replacing everything on the boat. When I estimated a rebuild/repower it really throws the budget into a whole 'nother category for me. Outside of major engine work or catastrophic drive train issues, the budget looks a lot more friendly


Kind of like River Cruiser, I just have a pretty good idea of what things will cost me outside of a catastrophic failure. To be honest, I'm not sure I could ever come up with anything I'd consider a budget for boating. . .there's too many variables
cool beans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2017, 06:18 PM   #56
TF Site Team
 
Insequent's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Vessel Name: Insequent
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 50 Mk I
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisjs View Post
No issue at all with what people choose to do with their own money, so long as it is not coming out of my taxes!!
But for the record, my Selene 47 (1999) was in good condition when acquired in 2006. Because the vessel was owned in an LLC, I actually kept detailed records of all expenditures (incl. fuel, bottom paint, etc) during 8 years of ownership. Much/most of the repairs/maintenance I did myself and we did not undertake any major modifications. Largest single expense was rebuilding the TwinDisc tranny (approx $4000). I included dockage, winterization, storage etc.

Including depreciation at sale and brokerage costs the average ownership cost approximated just under $40K/year for a vessel valued at $400K at sale. I think many owners have no idea what it really costs to maintain a larger vessel, and I think I actually did it "on the cheap". We finally sold the boat, not because of the cost, but because it became too large an obligation of time and we wanted to pursue other activities. During our ownership period we put 1,500 hours on the main engine, lived aboard/used the vessel for approx 65 weeks, and cruised the East Coast and the Bahamas.
We certainly have no regrets and thoroughly enjoyed the time we did own the vessel.
If this thread aims to help newbies then Chris's post nails it.

So, negotiate a purchase price, cost out what the survey says needs to be repaired and thats the starting point. Then allow 10% pa. It probably wont be right, but near enough to avoid stress.

I am in the don't budget camp, no finance either. I do know what my refit cost. I could probably add up what I have spent since then but have not done it. If curiosity gets the better of me (will also need some wet & windy non-boating weather !) I'll let you know.
__________________
Brian
Insequent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2017, 07:39 PM   #57
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 19,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by cool beans View Post


Kind of like River Cruiser, I just have a pretty good idea of what things will cost me outside of a catastrophic failure. To be honest, I'm not sure I could ever come up with anything I'd consider a budget for boating. . .there's too many variables
Variables are the spice of life for budgets. Budgets do help you understand them better. Even those who don't formally budget, do the thought processes and have a pretty good idea. Yes, you read write on considering major work like rebuilds, but I don't suggest over-considering it. Just be aware that down the road it is possible. Have some idea how long the engines you have should go without. Then think what you would do if it was needed. I know one person whose plan is that it would be a two year process for them. They live on their boat and if they didn't cruise during those two years they could pay for it. So, it would just be a temporary setback. He said he might even work part time to speed it alone. Still it wouldn't be death to his life on the water or to cruising.

We look at it as spending less money every year we don't have major expenditures and then a major expenditure just balances things out. We just don't get carried away over the years we save money.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2017, 08:11 PM   #58
Guru
 
klee wyck's Avatar
 
City: Seattle and Blaine
Vessel Name: Klee Wyck and Libra
Vessel Model: Lowland 48 and Noordzee Kotter 52
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 547
I also think for new boaters, that Chris has a pretty realistic post that reflects our experience. I feel like the 10% guideline is a little light for some circumstances. In Chris's case he had a pretty late model and well built boat and still got 10% of price per year into the boat. I saw a reference earlier in this thread to late 80s boats and I think in that case perhaps the chances are pretty good that you will be over ten percent.
A lot of this depends on how you view your caretaker role during the period that you own the boat. If you take the view that you are going to manage the boat in a way that it will still be a pretty serviceable and relevant boat in a decade or more then you might be over 10% to keep the boat in that kind of shape.
We have had Klee Wyck for five years and have put in around 75% of her original purchase price to own and keep her. I think even though she was well cared for previously, she is in better shape now than when we first came to be her caretaker. I expect she will still be a wonderful classic ship 20 years from now.
I would not have wanted to think this through all that much before we bought her. We are not budgeters in this part of our life.
Just know that big boats are pretty expensive to keep and you should be prepared to roll with that and still be happy.
__________________
Bill
klee wyck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 12:42 PM   #59
Guru
 
City: NC
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 700
I have heard the 10% rule for 30-40 years. I wonder how long that rule has been around?

I do wonder about the accuracy of the 10% rule, especially for power boats, because there is so many variables on the purchase price of the boat. Anywho, one of the best books about cruising is, "The Voyager's Handbook: The Essential Guide to Blue Water Cruising" by Beth A. Leonard. A big part of the book is about money issues and this is what the book says,

Quote:
"brokers selling boats over 50 feet say you will need to budget an amount equal to annual depreciation—on average about 10 percent of the cost of the boat per year over the course of a ten-year voyage—to maintain the boat’s resale value."
There are several discussions on the Cruising Forum, Cruisers & Sailing Forums, about cruising budgets where people have posted years worth of data which makes interesting reading. One cruiser is spending about 40% of their budget on the boat but that includes insurance, moorage/dockage, fuel, entry fees, flags, parts, new equipment upgrades, etc. I can't remember if they have stated the purchase price of the boat.

One person on CF spent $10,000ish on new rigging and $20-30,000ish on new sails. The sails were very high end though and for a 50-55 foot boat. That amount of expensive would seem to get you to the 10% mark pretty easily.

Later,
Dan
dannc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2017, 02:25 PM   #60
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10,816
IMO - Pay cash for boats and cars/trucks/motor cycles. Then use and/or enjoy! Be sure to purchase at good price and sell at good price. Take care of those items and have them amply insured.

I could calculate near to the dollar what every item I have costs per year. But why bother... except for TD reasons; even that can be close guess!

Regarding costs beyond initial purchase and commissioning of a boat: For rough rule o' thumb - 15 to20% of original cost is what you will annually spend on keeping a boat. That does not include fuel cost if you do much more than 150 engine hours per year.

Boats cost money - period! Enjoyment to the degree that a boat provides usually costs money - period.

The fact that we here are pleasure boaters that luv our boats is priceless - PERIOD!!!
__________________

Art is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×