Do new boat builders get off too easy?

[darkside]

I visited the yard building our boat every two weeks or so on average.
Ours was a bespoke layout so interpretations of our intentions were going astray here and there. The roof mount davit would have been a cluster if I hadn't intervened. A couple of other areas would also been well below par if the NA didn't put in a word.
We will attend to the last area of concern (that we know about) next month, a belting cap holding water. Overall the boat is great.
We've done a bit of boating so were happy controlling the build ourselves.
If you haven't, or live at a distance to the yard, get someone independent to act for you.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Yeah. When I had my boat in for bottom paint, through hulls, shaft packing and other stuff, I was there every other day. Ask questions, answer questions, adjust as needed. If I'm gonna spend 10 grand in 3 weeks, I want to know what's up eh?

Build up a new boat? Way past my pay grade.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

As part of my New Build Assist program, I do inspect a recently completed vessel, from the potential builder, to assess construction quality, and other issues that can be avoided by the builder if the buyer decides to proceed with that builder.

Furthermore, when builders are forced to make corrections to a build, or before a delivery, when they feel that financial pain, it drives them to improve and not repeat the same mistakes. If they are able to get away with not fixing errors, they have no incentive to avoid those mistakes in the future.

 

[chanprr]

Thanks Steve. Any thoughts on builder's guarantees on a new vessel.

 

[bucketlist1]

Some Would expect the quality of a new boat to be the same as a new car. Boat manufactures don’t have an automated assembly line , the mass numbers and the quality control that Automotive manufacturing does.
Boat manufacturing has a high employee turnover, and training on the go . At traditional hand layup can go bad quickly with unskilled labor.
Vacuum bagging and resin infusion for fiberglass ( which is high quality ) is a slow process and doesn’t work well for mass production. I have toured the Boston whaler plant, and even though it is a traditional hand laid hull , the quality is there. They weigh each fiberglass component, and it has to be within a certain percentage of the correct weight. Two little resin and the component will be too light, too much resin and it will be too heavy. Both create a weak fiberglass component.
I learned my lesson from purchasing a Ranger Tug from a dealer with 25 hours on it. I would recommend a quality survey on all new boats .
In the last four years, I have learned how poor , Some of the boat manufactures quality is. My Ranger Tug truth Facebook page is proof of this with almost 700 followers.
Hopefully boat manufactures can reach the goal of higher quality production In the future.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

I often hear the lament, "Why can't my multi-million dollar boat be like my Lexus/Mercedes, which costs a fraction of the price?" It's a long answer, but the short version is, by the time Lexus or Mercedes built the 10,000 version of a model, they pretty much have it perfected. Most boat builders don't build two of anything identical, every hull is different, which places a very heavy onus on the builder to get things they've often done for the first or second or third or even 50th or 100th time perfect, which is no easy task.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Thanks Steve. Any thoughts on builder's guarantees on a new vessel.

Yes, many. Start by carefully reading the contract, more on that here The Need for Smoke Detectors – Editorial: Read the Contract | Steve D'Antonio Marine Consulting

Among other things, ask about warranty administration, do you have to bring the vessel back to the dealer for a repair? If so, depending on how you use the vessel that can be a major issue, if, for instance, the dealer is in Palm Beach, and you are in Maine cruising.

Will the vessel be built to a standard like ABYC, or ISO, or a classification like ABS, RINA etc.? That's important because it means a third party is setting the bar for what's right and wrong, and that will minimize disputes between you and the builder/dealer.

In my opinion, hulls should include at least a 5 year warranty against defects and failures, including osmotic blisters. If a builder is unwilling to offer this it's a red flag, especially considering blister prevention has essentially been perfected with the use of vinylester resin. Such warranties often exclude minor gelcoat cracking, crazing, mismatch or "irregularities", that's not uncommon, however, "minor" and "irregularity" should be defined, or examples provided.

Make certain the builder will assist and support you with all warranty claims if those claims are with a third party manufacturer, including everything from engines and cranes to generators and windlasses. The builder has more pull with manufacturers than you do, so it's only natural that they act as your advocate. I editorialized that subject here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/PartingShot_Warranty_Coverage.pdf

Finally, I strongly recommend owners have a skilled professional carry out a thorough inspection of a new vessel before taking delivery (and while under construction if you commissioned the construction), and again prior to the expiration of the warranty.

Did I mention carefully reading the contract?

 

[Mako]

I know by now never to buy any boat from a Turkish yard, except perhaps Bering. ... but I have seen many many yachts, build by Turkish yards, which I would not even take to sea. Having experienced the Turkish 'craftmanship' first hand I know that you have to be on top of them, if not you will be in a lot of trouble.

It helps to manage your expectations of a shipyard.

One builder I visited in Izmir built affordable, light duty recreational boats. So it wasn't surprising when I discovered brass hardware-store through hulls.

I visited Asboat and met with the big guy there, don't remember his name. They are a major builder of Diesel Ducks (them and Seahorse China). Many under construction. At that time their pricing was inline with Eastern European yards. Looking closely however, the steelwork and insulation install was really bad. Of course, after 1+ inches of filler the high gloss paint looked gorgeous. Perhaps that should be expected. Beautiful on the outside but mediocre quality on the inside.

Another yard in Izmir was a commercial fishing boat builder. Commercial finish and commercial quality, but that's what I expected and was asking for. I almost signed with them actually.

However, speaking to my contact at one of those yards recently, the soft economy in Turkey coming out of Covid, has lead to 150% increases in prices. There is no longer the great cost advantage to building there.

Back to the subject, @Mambo42 you're right that for any custom or semi-custom boat, that there needs to be constant supervision. I don't think it's so critical when buying a production boat especially if they build in quantities.

I second what has already been said about commissioning. No way you can take possession of any boat, even a Nordy, with nothing more than a day's sea trials, and expect to load up and head across the ocean. It's a tough challenge to conquer.

I'm heading to China at the end of this month to visit a bunch of shipyards. It's even more challenging because all you get is a sea trial, then the boat has to be loaded as cargo and delivered overseas. No way you're sailing back to China for a warranty call. So I'm thinking really hard about how to mitigate all these risks.

 

[mvweebles]

I'm heading to China at the end of this month to visit a bunch of shipyards. It's even more challenging because all you get is a sea trial, then the boat has to be loaded as cargo and delivered overseas. No way you're sailing back to China for a warranty call. So I'm thinking really hard about how to mitigate all these risks.

First, good post - I always enjoy your practical yard experience Mako.

Second, years ago when Seahorse (China) was just beginning in the Diesel Duck line, I knew a couple one of the very first ones. They cruised Philipines for a while, presumably to shake-out issues. Vietnam is also supposed to have some decent cruising.

Peter

 

[Mako]

@mvweebles, every time I see your avatar photo and see that big round butt with the crease in the middle, it makes me smile! Ha

Viet is a spectacular country, and visiting is amazing and affordable... on land. Traditionally it was a tough place to take a private boat to. Thousands in fees, plus needing to have a full time local "captain" onboard (ie, a guy who sleeps all day on deck). We would just rent small powerboats (with a skipper of course) and take the kids snorkeling out in the islands to see coral snakes, sea turtles and lion fish, all for about $100 a day.

They do have a few westerners building yachts there these days, multihull sailboats, and I understand that you are allowed to sail out of the country when taking possession (which you cannot do in China for the most part). I would doubt that they would allow foreign boats to be cruising around the fun zones like the Mekong Delta, Nha Trang, or the amazing Hạ Long Bay (where they filmed parts of that King Kong movie).

I havent' been there in 5 years however and perhaps things have opened up.

 

[mvweebles]

@mvweebles, every time I see your avatar photo and see that big round butt with the crease in the middle, it makes me smile! Ha

Viet is a spectacular country, and visiting is amazing and affordable... on land. Traditionally it was a tough place to take a private boat to. Thousands in fees, plus needing to have a full time local "captain" onboard (ie, a guy who sleeps all day on deck). We would just rent small powerboats (with a skipper of course) and take the kids snorkeling out in the islands to see coral snakes, sea turtles and lion fish, all for about $100 a day.

They do have a few westerners building yachts there these days, multihull sailboats, and I understand that you are allowed to sail out of the country when taking possession (which you cannot do in China for the most part). I would doubt that they would allow foreign boats to be cruising around the fun zones like the Mekong Delta, Nha Trang, or the amazing Hạ Long Bay (where they filmed parts of that King Kong movie).

I havent' been there in 5 years however and perhaps things have opened up.

Thanks - I mentioned Vietnam because it had been mentioned on some recent CF threads on inexpensive places to cruise. Sounds like those posts didn't have water-based information.

But I do have a follow-on question that is germane to the topic: Seahorse has been building Beuhler/DIesel Ducks since 2000 or so. Any sense how Seahorse (or similar builders) provide warranty support, or is it like a Sparrow that once the fledgling leaves the nest, they're on their own and don't even recognize their offspring 3-hours later? Any idea of where delivery is actually taken (Asia or US), or is that negotiable?

I have to wonder if buyers looking for a Nordhavn-capable boat but get swayed by the low price-point of a direct to builder know what they're giving up? Of course, I'm assuming that Nordhavns (only an example) are US delivered and final commissioning.

Given your experience with building around the world, guessing you have some very special insights.....

Peter

PS - my wife says "Real boats have round butts!" She firmly believes whales are attracted to her hull-form.

 

[Mako]

You got me curious. A quick Google and viewing Noonsite's post indicate Vietnam is still not an attractive cruising ground. They do however have a mature river-cruise ship tourism industry.

I had a similar question about how does Seahorse allow customers to sail out of China on their own bottoms. This topic has been driving me nuts because none of the Qingdao shipyards state that the government will allow that, so I'd have to pay to have my boat loaded as deck cargo and shipped to Korea not far away, to take possession (after sea trials in China of course). So I reached out to the owner of Seahorse, Stella.

From what I recall, they have a special arrangement with the Chinese government. The boat from the yard would be dropped in the water, "no touch" by foreigners, then a tugboat tows it to Hong Kong, where the foreign owner clears outbound and sails it away. The permissions came with a price, like $10k or more.

Some advantages of buying from an American company (like PAE) are that it is commissioned and warranted in America, and have American supervision at the yard in China. Only meatballs like me would consider building directly with a Chinese shipyard... what a knucklehead!

 

[dannc]

We visited the Seahorse yards years ago. At the time, boats were delivered to Hong Kong where the owner would take control of the boat. There might be some work done in Hong Kong but warranty work was mostly done in Subic Bay. Owners got to spend time in Hong Kong and learn the boat a bit before going to the PI where more time was spent finding problems and fixing them.

Boats were sent to Hong Kong on their own bottom at one point, but then they had to be shipped or towed down to Hong Kong.

It seems that having a boat in Hong Kong has become very difficult and there are travel advisories to Hong Kong and China now a days. One of the advantages of building in China was spending time in China and Hong Kong. That has become difficult and problematic.