Bow Damage during delivery

[Hippocampus]

Guy that was exactly my point there’s no correlation between place in society and skill set. I thought I made that clear. I also think there’s a decreasing correlation between time boating and skill set.
I remain against licensing at any level. Think the love for boating is incremental in onset. Think we need to engage new people into boating. Creating obstacles to that occurring isn’t the way to go unless it’s limited to some degree. Perhaps basic knowledge above a certain horsepower or loa. Or someway to not create an obstacle to new boaters.
In my head I still try to have a concept of VMG. We just completed going from RI to VA. Yes I hunt and pick balancing SOG, distance needing to travel to get to next waypoint and comfort. Trip was entirely coastal.

 

[SteveK]

most excellent discussion that may be lost in a thread evolved from bow damage

 

[Delta Riverat]

In California we now have the "boater card" that is becoming mandatory on an age related basis. New boaters need it sooner (like now) than older boaters. Which makes absolute sense.

It's not a hard thing to get, just take the online course and pass the test. But at least you learn the rules of the "road", safety requirements, basic operations (turn on the bilge blowers before starting engines), other boats in the water (PWC, water skiers, commercial vessels, sailboats, etc), the increased effects of alcohol when combined with wind, sun and waves. You know stuff we all learned when we were young.

I'm all for it, it's not a major stumbling block.

 

[psneeld]

In California we now have the "boater card" that is becoming mandatory on an age related basis. New boaters need it sooner (like now) than older boaters. Which makes absolute sense.

It's not a hard thing to get, just take the online course and pass the test. But at least you learn the rules of the "road", safety requirements, basic operations (turn on the bilge blowers before starting engines), other boats in the water (PWC, water skiers, commercial vessels, sailboats, etc), the increased effects of alcohol when combined with wind, sun and waves. You know stuff we all learned when we were young.

I'm all for it, it's not a major stumbling block.

Pretty widely needed to boat in most coastal states, has been for 20 years in some places.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Good to know. I've got one even though I don't need it yet -

Anything is better than completely unregulated "credit card captains"

 

[backinblue]

Hippo, I'm not against making AIS mandatory, but is you "ignition switch" idea mant to turn off your motor if it thinks you are headed for a collision? That's not something I would want to sign up for. AIS is one of many tools, but I don't know how many accidents it would really prevent. Getting all boaters to monitor VHF would be a better goal IMO.

 

[Hippocampus]

B perhaps my experience is different than than yours. All to often I find VHF communications difficult even if the other vessel responds at all.
On the high seas most crews do not have American English as their primary language. Although it’s to be used between that and accents communication is not infrequently difficult.
Regional accents and idioms apply in US coastal environments and confound VHF discussions. Proper etiquette is often not followed. Conversion is “stepped on”, signal strength and clarity varies so communication can be difficult. Comprehension of standard marine terms and syntax varies as well so misunderstandings occur.
So I’d rather make my decisions without the need to be dependent upon interacting with the other vessel. It’s rare indeed that I can’t either slow down, speed up or change course in advance to avoid dangerous close proximity if I know position, speed and course of the other vessel. I avoid being distracted by having to deal with added burden of having to interact with the other vessel on vhf as well. I suppose marpa could serve to some degree but AIS is so much easier. Of course telling a commercial vessel “is a one toot ok with you?” is quick and easy but it’s very rare you can do that or similar.
I’ve given up on relying on sound signals as I have no confidence they will be understood. Except for leaving, danger and fog. Will use that short hand on the vhf on occasion. So do use vhf and sound but less and less as time goes on. Rather just helm defensively. Assume no one will stay out of my way so I need to stay out of their way. AIS helps me do that.

 

[backinblue]

Thanks Hippo. My boat is not equipped with AIS other than receiving info. I dan't have very much experience with it like you do and definitely not offshore. How does AIS help in situations that radar would not if you are not going to use VHF?

 

[mvweebles]

...
On the high seas most crews do not have American English as their primary language. Although it’s to be used between that and accents communication is not infrequently difficult.....

Diversion alert: reminds me of an old commercial for Berlitz to improve your English skills....

https://youtu.be/VSdxqIBfEAw

Carry on..

Peter

 

[OldDan1943]

move cursor over the blip on the RADAR, the blip is identified via AIS by name, use VHF to call them. That is assuming they have all 3 and is monitoring them. Life can be so simple.

 

[Bmarler]

most excellent discussion that may be lost in a thread evolved from bow damage

Fully agree.

 

[backinblue]

Thanks Dan that is my currrent process as well. Didn't know if I was missing something

 

[backinblue]

Diversion alert: reminds me of an old commercial for Berlitz to improve your English skills....

https://youtu.be/VSdxqIBfEAw

Carry on..

Peter

Good one Peter!

 

[ronobrien]

Thanks Hippo. My boat is not equipped with AIS other than receiving info. I dan't have very much experience with it like you do and definitely not offshore. How does AIS help in situations that radar would not if you are not going to use VHF?

I have done many deliveries along the East Coast US and intersect with several large commercial ports, shipping channels and the associated ships. Radar is great and is my go to, as AIS isn't on every vessel. However radar contact doesn't always tell you the size of the vessel which can effect maneuverability. It is a comfort to me to know exactly what I am dealing with so that I understand what, if any, action I have to take early in the encounter. The old adage, never rely on one source of information and use as many as you can.

 

[backinblue]

I have done many deliveries along the East Coast US and intersect with several large commercial ports, shipping channels and the associated ships. Radar is great and is my go to, as AIS isn't on every vessel. However radar contact doesn't always tell you the size of the vessel which can effect maneuverability. It is a comfort to me to know exactly what I am dealing with so that I understand what, if any, action I have to take early in the encounter. The old adage, never rely on one source of information and use as many as you can.

Good info thanks.

 

[Hippocampus]

Put the curser on the vessel and press.
Get
Distance of closest approach
Time to that occurrence
Their relative speed and course
Their true SOG and course
Their name, destination, and principal dimensions.
Class of AIS

Then have NO need to call them on VHF. Divert or change speed as necessary to avoid. Recheck AIS parameters periodically to make sure distance of closest approach is increasing to a satisfactory amount.
It’s extremely rare I call any vessel on VHF for collision avoidance. Usually can just move out of the way. Figure the commercial guys have other things to deal with so don’t want to bother them. The recreational folks maybe a hassle to deal with and it isn’t a big deal to stay away. I did call once on our recent trip. A very large barge push tug combo was coming at us as we were near the exit of the C&D. Asked if we were in his way. He was very appreciative of our call and told us to do what we were doing just hung the greens. Conversation lowered his stress. Although we couldn’t see him at that point he then knew we were aware of him and due to his size would have issues navigating the turns while staying in the canal. He knew we were paying attention. 10 second conversion lowering stress. I’m not against using VHF but still think even those conversations are often greatly enhanced by having the AIS information before hand.
BTW he wasn’t yet on radar.

 

[mvweebles]

The old adage, never rely on one source of information and use as many as you can.

I'm reminded of my dearly departed father who used to say "a man with a clock always knows what time it is. A man with two clocks is never certain." Might be a generational thing....

I have enjoyed this thread and it's inevitable drift into AIS. But am reminded that for vast majority of boaters who journey no more than a few hours in any given day in company of other recreational boaters, it's rarely useful and in fact risks being a distraction in tight situations such as the OP some 225 posts ago.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

People here have complained about folks not monitoring 16 and 13. I’m going to complain about AIS receivers. On the same trip mentioned above a >1000’ container ship was proceeding up channel. It was a fine day but light air. Multiple sailboats were going down channel with kites up. Not just codes but true spinnakers poled out. Their quick maneuvering would be limited Container ship was trying to raise them to discuss avoidance. He could not identify them by name (assuming due to the lack of transceivers). A whole host of pressured VHF calls were made. Ship called again and again. Some sailboats responded and were told not you. I assume the sailboats were on their migration south and didn’t know local land marks nor following their gps positions. Although the recreational boats were monitoring their VHF a bunch of conversations and stress was produced. All of it could have been avoided by either just staying entirely out of the shipping channel all together or by having a transceiver broadcasting the name(s) of vessels involved. ( we were running outside the channel and couldn’t read the names to be able to tell the ship. We’ve done that on occasion in the past). Think this has gotten to be more of a problem as just about everybody has a AP. Big or small it doesn’t matter. APs have gotten better so you can run waypoint to waypoint or if sail just set a wind angle and sit back.
As said by others some areas have large amount of traffic. Sometimes you want to talk to one vessel in that crowd. A receiver doesn’t help. A transceiver makes it easy pleasy.

 

[psneeld]

For inland waters - Rule 34 - if not sound signals (most agree this can be frustration as many never respond due to not understanding or not hearing over screaming engines)

(h) A vessel that reaches agreement with another vessel in a headon,
crossing, or overtaking situation, as for example, by using the
radiotelephone as prescribed by the Vessel Bridge-to-Bridge
Radiotelephone Act (85 Stat. 164; 33 U.S.C. 1201 et seq.), is not obliged to
sound the whistle signals prescribed by this Rule, but may do so. If
agreement is not reached, then whistle signals shall be exchanged in a
timely manner and shall prevail.

 

[mvweebles]

Hippocampus- do you think it might be that sailors still have bulk of advanced electronics at a helm station below decks? I know they have MFDs at helm, but no place to install a VHF. Having lived aboard and actively boated in SF Bay, my observation was ships didn't bother with VHF. 5 blasts of the ships whistle seems to clear a path pretty quickly. Was a common sound on on any give Saturday or Sunday afternoon. But that was before AIS was common.

I also wonder about distraction level with sailing - there's a lot more activity aboard the boat than a powerboat. And as you say some limitations on maneuverability in some circumstances. Ship's 5-blast seems to reorient sailors pretty quickly.

Peter

 

[backinblue]

I would first wonder why a sailboat can visually see a 1000' container ship and know enough to stay out of the way. No amount of electronics can fix "stupid".

 

[OldDan1943]

Let's face it, we might be driving in our minds while at the helm until, you hear the VHF calls out the name of your boat.

On my boat, no one drinks unless are tied to the dock for the evening. No one drinks when anchored unless we are anchored for the night.

Dont like those 2 rules, buy your own boat!!! End of story, no further discussion necessary.

 

[Hippocampus]

Virtually every sailboat I’ve ever been on has a remote mike at the wheel. Also for cruising boats AIS and radar at least shown as overlays or split screen on the MFD. If tiller steered on the aft house bulkhead or next to the engine controls on the side of the cockpit well.

Fundamental issue remains with advancing technologies on both sail and power there’s less involvement with running the boat, helming and navigating.
On sail you push a few buttons. It autoroutes.
You have a self tacking jib. The AP auto tacks or gybes . Even if you have a Genoa, traditional jib or cutter or Solent rig your headsail sheets are controlled by powered winches. I sailed the last boat on single watches tens of thousands of miles and never took out a winch handle except for the vang. Sailing is no longer the active thing it once was on the modern boat. Even the light air sails are on upside down roller furling.
Same for power. Can’t tell you the number of empty helms you see. Not just folks tending fishing gear but also folks out for a spin or on a long transit so off in the head, napping or preparing food.
You can talk about Radar, VHF, sound signals, or whatever but I’m going to assume the other guy isn’t going to help me avoid collision. If I knew his position closing speed/angle, point of closest approach and identity and characteristics it would be a big help. Accidents involve two vessels. It’s just as important the other guy sees me as I see the other guy. It’s even more important when the other guy isn’t paying attention.

 

[backinblue]

Hippo, I can't disagree with anythng you are saying and you have much more experience than most of the members here. I just have to question your logic. In your case, you are using all the tools and taking the right steps to avoid a collision. But how does that apply in your example of an empty helm on autopilot? If they are not even keeping a visual lookout, what's the chance they would be looking at AIS data? I still contend that despite all the tools available, humans are the biggest variable and human error causes collisions. A good capt with no electronics is better than a fully equippped poor one.

 

[psneeld]

I would first wonder why a sailboat can visually see a 1000' container ship and know enough to stay out of the way. No amount of electronics can fix "stupid".

I left Delaware City headed down the Delaware River one day returning from Florida.

A large sailing Cat was about a mile ahead going into a major turn.

Not sure what the Cat was thinking, but for 10 minutes you could see a VLCC headed for, making the turn and straightening out. I NEVER run the ship channel on the Delaware as there is no need to except in large vessels.

The Cat was in the middle of the pretty narrow channel and even after the tanker hailed him 3 times, no radio response or maneuvering. The ship sounded 5 blasts with still no response. Now they were maybe a 1/2 mile apart on a clear, bright Spring day.

The first time I ever heard a pilot so frustrated to break protocol and say "Catamaran southbound near the CD Canal entrance headed south.... "DO YOU SEE THE VERY LARGE SHIP RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU?" Took about 10 seconds but the Cat finally responded and started turning.

Not sure if that helps you understand that near collisions are prevalent, but in reality, collisions are very rare in my book. Thinking one needs all this electronic assistance in close maneuvering waters is way overblown except in low vis or western rivers with lots of blind spots/bends.

 

[hollywood8118]

I left Delaware City headed down the Delaware River one day returning from Florida.

A large sailing Cat was about a mile ahead going into a major turn.

Not sure what the Cat was thinking, but for 10 minutes you could see a VLCC headed for, making the turn and straightening out. I NEVER run the ship channel on the Delaware as there is no need to except in large vessels.

The Cat was in the middle of the pretty narrow channel and even after the tanker hailed him 3 times, no radio response or maneuvering. The ship sounded 5 blasts with still no response. Now they were maybe a 1/2 mile apart on a clear, bright Spring day.

The first time I ever heard a pilot so frustrated to break protocol and say "Catamaran southbound near the CD Canal entrance headed south.... "DO YOU SEE THE VERY LARGE SHIP RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU?" Took about 10 seconds but the Cat finally responded and started turning.

Not sure if that helps you understand that near collisions are prevalent, but in reality, collisions are very rare in my book. Thinking one needs all this electronic assistance in close maneuvering waters is way overblown except in low vis or western rivers with lots of blind spots/bends.

The reality is many sailors (in sail boats) seem to take the view they are ALWAYS the boat with right of way if under sail. Have personally witnessed this many times. Put up a spinnaker and they would argue with God that they have absolute right of way, racers are the worst of the bunch. As if we all should be lucky to be sharing the same water as they. Keep in mind I still sail some, and was a die hard sailor with over 10k miles of blue water sailing prior to coming to the dark side. The reality is no matter how many instruments at their disposal some people will still manage to run into stuff even on a clear day.. go figure.

Reminds me of the time years ago of the guy who ran a Midnight Lace right up.. high and dry in front of the Santa Barbara Yacht Club. Rumor was he was fiddling with his girlfriend instead of his electronics.. bet the wife wasn't impressed.
HOLLYWOOD

 

[ranger58sb]

move cursor over the blip on the RADAR, the blip is identified via AIS by name, use VHF to call them. That is assuming they have all 3 and is monitoring them. Life can be so simple.

We don't even have to do that much work, just to see names. Settings pre-selected on both MFDs automatically show AIS targets, including names... no matter whether displaying chart and/or radar.

Put the curser on the vessel and press.
Get
Distance of closest approach
Time to that occurrence
Their relative speed and course
Their true SOG and course
Their name, destination, and principal dimensions.
Class of AIS

A minor quibble: only Class A folks need to enter destinations. That said, destination has usually been superfluous info for us. Interesting, but not immediately useful (unless, I guess, destination is "right over there").

People here have complained about folks not monitoring 16 and 13.

Hippocampus- do you think it might be that sailors still have bulk of advanced electronics at a helm station below decks? I know they have MFDs at helm, but no place to install a VHF.

Virtually every sailboat I’ve ever been on has a remote mike at the wheel.

Many sailboats have not answered our VHF hail as we've gone back ad forth along the AICW. Usually to discuss passing, offer a slow pass, etc. I guess I've been charitable to assume their radio was below decks and they couldn't hear it. I could imagine other reasons...

I’m going to complain about AIS receivers. ... A receiver doesn’t help. A transceiver makes it easy pleasy.

All that stuff I said earlier about percentage of boats -- around here and also along the AICW -- without AIS transceiver.

-Chris

 

[ronobrien]

I left Delaware City headed down the Delaware River one day returning from Florida.

A large sailing Cat was about a mile ahead going into a major turn.

Not sure what the Cat was thinking, but for 10 minutes you could see a VLCC headed for, making the turn and straightening out. I NEVER run the ship channel on the Delaware as there is no need to except in large vessels.

The Cat was in the middle of the pretty narrow channel and even after the tanker hailed him 3 times, no radio response or maneuvering. The ship sounded 5 blasts with still no response. Now they were maybe a 1/2 mile apart on a clear, bright Spring day.

The first time I ever heard a pilot so frustrated to break protocol and say "Catamaran southbound near the CD Canal entrance headed south.... "DO YOU SEE THE VERY LARGE SHIP RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU?" Took about 10 seconds but the Cat finally responded and started turning.

Not sure if that helps you understand that near collisions are prevalent, but in reality, collisions are very rare in my book. Thinking one needs all this electronic assistance in close maneuvering waters is way overblown except in low vis or western rivers with lots of blind spots/bends.

As I stated in another comment in the thread, I have done many deliveries along the US East coast, also several from USVI, Bahamas, Bermuda, even one through the Panama canal. Even hundreds of miles at sea, with no vessels in sight or on radar, the helm/wheel house is never left unattended. A ship out of sight at 3.8+/- NM traveling at 15KT will be on you in 15 minutes. Now he should be visible on radar, but what if that radar isn't tuned correctly, or no alarms are set, or no one is looking at radar? The wheel house is NEVER left unattended. That is our standing rule. You use very available asset for safety and navigation.

 

[Hippocampus]

All good points Chris. Other than transits before AIS and just one more recently have no experience so defer to you. Can you comment on % of power that respond to an VHF hail? Have had recurring issues with big sportfish on plane in canals which are speed posted who don’t respond.
Will have more experience real soon so appreciate your sharing. Would you appreciate more boats having transceivers?


Peter you’re a prudent mariner both offshore and coastal. In a sailboat there’s no issue looking behind you. Just turn your head. Find it’s different in power. We had two large rigid kayaks attached to the railing of the boat deck. Just got rid of them. Hopefully that will improve looking over at the aft quarters. Sail and trawlers are slow. I’m as interested in seeing what’s behind me as in front. Do make it a habit to get out of the comfy helm seat (best seat in the boat) and look around but I’m no saint. Already have had the experience of AIS and radar clueing me in it’s time to get up and look. Then go back to figure out if there’s anything to pay further attention to. AIS is a big help for that. If you’re doing watch and watch so tired you may get lazy. Wife likes me napping on the starboard settee while she’s on watch. We’ve done several blocks of multiple day stretches so we’re both tired. We two have been continuing our rule about doing 360 look arounds periodically while on watch. Will say, at least for us, situational awareness is harder to achieve on our trawler than on sail. It’s the downside of being dry, warm and comfy with some degree of background noise. We have two excellent port lights on the aft of the pilot house but it isn’t just turning your head.

 

[Hippocampus]

Think captain OBrien is righteous and that’s the way all vessels should operate. We say “you got the helm” even when one of us is momentarily going to be distracted doing something else but staying in the pilot house. ( be happy to crew for you)

But that’s not the way some boats are run.

Unlike him I’ve been on small boats. Sometimes the radar has less range than the AIS. Sometimes the AIS antenna is positioned lower or the signal is slower. View them as complementary but information is more than additive. Much wisdom in his post. Especially

“You use very available asset for safety and navigation.”

And AIS is a very good tool to have in your bag. Very short money compared to a MFD or radar.