New to me Marine Trader 36 Sundeck - Questions

[DBG8492]

My fiancé and I just acquired a 1986 MT 36 Sundeck that - due to the previous owner's death - has been sitting at a dock for two years while the family sorted out the estate.

We have to move her from the dock by the 1st of August and are trying to sort through everything before doing so.

We have a long list of things and are working through it, but I am reaching out for some help with (hopefully) identifying a few things I'm unsure of.

First things first - the black water tank and sanitation.

The forward head is non-op - it's an old Jabsco pump, and it doesn't appear to work. The aft head is electric, but we haven't turned the switch on yet because I haven't ID'd all the inlets, outlets, hoses, and valves and I don't want to break anything if something is clogged. Last thing I want is a bilge full of sewage...

The first pic below should be an overhead of the black tank under the galley sole. I have written what I believe to be the ID of each thing I see - and added question marks for things I don't know. I'm guessing that the large pump is the black water pump, and the large white valve is the OBD valve that should be locked or something but isn't. Not labeled at the top left of the pic is what I believe is the inlet for the aft head because it enters the top of the tank.

In the second and third pics - from the aft part of the engine room, you can see the high-arcing white sanitation hose that comes from a large seacock on the starboard side of the hull. The seacock is open that hose feeds down to a three-way valve in the bilge that's barely visible in the two pics - it's black with a blue lever. There's another sanitation hose that feeds back towards the aft cabin and another on the front that feeds under the engine and towards the bow. Does anyone know what this is? My first guess was that it was the pickup for seawater to the heads - but it seems like a very large seacock and hose for that. Also, if that's what it is, why the three-way valve?

The fourth pic is what I believe to be the electric pump for an oil change system, but I wanted to make sure before I mess with it. The inlet hose goes to the bottom of the sump and the outlet is just hung behind the pump.

The fifth and sixth pics are of the fuel inlets/outlets on the starboard and port fuel tanks, respectively. Note that the starboard side tank has an inlet labeled "Return" with a tag. The Outlet isn't labeled at all. However, it feeds what appears to be a piece of clear tubing with what looks like tape markings of some sort on it. Also, there is no visible return line to the port tank, but there is an identical piece of clear tubing there - also with tape markings. Are these fuel level indicators? Because both of them have fuel in them, but it doesn't go all the way to the top on either side - there's air in them at the top. I'm guessing these aren't a part of the fuel feed system because of the air - but I'm not sure. There are no fuel gauges on the instrument panel either.

And why isn't there a return to the port tank?

The engine runs perfectly. According to the estate, the owner rebuilt her a few months before he died and barely put more than a few hundred hours on her after the rebuild. I changed the impeller and will change the oil just to be sure, but it looks and smells brand new. And we've run her at the dock for more than thirty minutes, so if there was any air in the lines, it would have made itself known during that time.

Anyway, if anyone has any input on any of this stuff, it would be appreciated. We are about to head back down there and I'm going to try to sort out the electrical system and what charges what when and how. The thruster/windlass batteries are dead, and the engine start battery seems weak, but the house batteries appear to be charging. However, I think the house batteries may be charging from solar and that doesn't charge anything else - but of course, none of the wiring is labeled so...

Thanks in advance!

 

[Blissboat]

Congrats on your new to you Marine Trader, DBG! Hope we'll get to see more pix soon. Sad story about the previous owner.

The clear-ish vertical tubes on the outside of each fuel tank are indeed sight tubes for monitoring fuel levels. Someone marked them with tape probably to help calculate the rate of fuel consumption.

In diesels served by more than one fuel tank, a fuel return line usually only goes to one tank. A manifold or similar bit of plumbing should exist, allowing the level in both tanks to equalize. If not, careful attention must be paid to the level in the tank that is fitted with the return line, so as to avoid accidental overfilling. Depending on the location of the air-relief for that tank, an overboard discharge of fuel could result.

 

[Comodave]

Welcome aboard and congrats on your new boat. Boy, you have a job on your hands. From the photos it will be very difficult to tell you much. The hose running to the holding tank does not appear to be sanitation hose. I would follow each hose and see where it goes. Do that on all the hoses in the boat. Then I would make a plan on exactly how you want the hoses to end up. Then use the proper type of hose for the application. For sanitation hoses only Raritan SaniFlex hose. It is very flexible and the best lasting hose.

It could be that there is only 1 return line for fuel if you only have 1 engine. So you will have to keep an eye on that fuel tank level. Good news is that Lehmans hardly return any fuel.

Probably first thing I would do is degrease the whole area so it will be easier to work on. I use Extreme Simple Green and use it undiluted. This is an aircraft cleaner and not just regular Simple Green. I spray it on, brush it around and then using a garden sprayer with water rinse it. As I am rinsing I use a shop vac to pick up the water and oil mixture. By doing it this way you don’t get a large volume of oily water to deal with.

Good luck.

 

[DBG8492]

Thanks for that!

I was hoping that those were sight glasses - but I wanted to make sure. Good to know.

And @comodave - yes, there is a LOT of work ahead. We are just trying to get her out of South Florida up to North Carolina where she will be on the hard for a while to get all the work that needs to be done completed - that will include a massive clean-up of the engine room and painting the bilges as well as replacement of all through-hulls and seacocks...etc.

The worst part about buying a boat with a deceased owner is the loss of institutional knowledge about her. Everything the former owner kept in his head is lost forever.

For instance, she's got three banks of batteries - house, start, and windlass/thruster. The two former are a pair of 12 volts wired in series, 4 pair of 6 volts wired in parallel and then in series, and the windlass/thruster is a pair of 12s wired in parallel. And all of the batteries are close to fully discharged. There's solar and a battery charger, but they're not charging. The controller reports that there's an open somewhere in the circuit, but I'll be damned if I can find it. I do know that after he died, someone went down and shut off the shore power so she just sat there for two years with no current - in the South Florida heat.

The charger is working at least - I know this because, with shore power on and the charger switch on, all the 12v systems work until you get to the point where the charge controller is overloaded. I discovered this yesterday when I tried to start the main after changing the impeller. As soon as I pushed the start button, everything went offline including shore power. About 45 seconds later, everything came back online. With the shore power switch off, the 12v lights will barely light up - all very dim.

I ordered a battery tester and will go through them one by one this weekend and replace any that are bad, then hook everything back up and see if I can find and eliminate the open in the charging circuit.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

Your pictures exemplify one of the problems with older boats (mine included). Namely a snarl of wires, hoses, pumps and mountings. I guess all that can be done is to spend time in the bilge and make some sense out of the puzzle.

Good Luck.

pete

 

[DBG8492]

Your pictures exemplify one of the problems with older boats (mine included). Namely a snarl of wires, hoses, pumps and mountings. I guess all that can be done is to spend time in the bilge and make some sense out of the puzzle.

Good Luck.

pete

100% - and thanks!

Speaking for myself, I like to try to have diagrams of systems and have things labeled - but even I will procrastinate and put off doing things because "I'll do it tomorrow" is easy to say.

But the reality is that if something happens to you before tomorrow, the next person in line will have to pick up those pieces.

I know that once I get her on the hard, I can take my time and tear things apart and put them back together the way I want them - with documentation - but getting her where I want to haul her is going to be the tricky part.

There are plenty of yards in South Florida - and some of them are even somewhat DIY friendly - but holy cow are they expensive... And none of them will let you live aboard while you work, so the only way I'd use one of them is in an absolute emergency.

 

[DBG8492]

If you were a battery charger, where would you be?

That's the dilemma.

The port side of the engine is covered with 6-volt batteries from the forward bulkhead to the transmission. There's a ProMariner ProIsoCharge 1-3 on the port bulkhead just over this bunch of batteries. I know that it uses the alternator to charge several banks independently, but it's not an AC-driven charger. One of the many big battery switches lies between the alternator and the IsoCharge - this much I've confirmed.

There is also a solar array and controller that happily reports that it's charging *something* - I assume the house batteries. What's odd is that if the shore power switch is on, all the DC stuff works. However, if you turn that switch off, even the DC stuff stops working...

There is a "Battery Charger" switch on the AC panel, and if everything on the boat is turned off, it will sort of flash weakly - It never burns bright like the DC switch indicators. And as soon as we turn on the portable air conditioners, the light goes off completely. A DC switch marked "Charger Fan" also turns on a fan in the wall beside the helm under the main cabin door.

However, given all that, I still can't locate the physical device itself.

And today I noticed that the power tower at the dock has two 25-amp connections on it, but the boat is only wired to one of them. It has a pigtail that breaks the one out into two shore power cables that go to the two 25-amp plugs on the starboard side.

I've owned a sailboat that had a single 25-amp, and our boats in the Navy had single 220 or 440 depending, but I have never worked with a boat that had two multiple shore power connections, so I'm not sure how it's supposed to work. But I would guess that it works BEST if both of them are connected to two separate 25-amp supplies rather than sharing one.

Is there a chance that this is causing the charger - wherever it is - to fail? Not enough amps? I mean - I still need to find the thing, but at least knowing it worked would be rather helpful.

I have an electrician coming tomorrow and hopefully he can sort things out - but I really just need to know that the batteries will charge when underway. I can handle that until we get her on the hard. I'm just really curious as to where the charger might be...

 

[Delta Riverat]

I would bet that the (2) 25 amp sockets are both ends of a 230 volt line. The electrician can verify this for you.

 

[CharlieO.]

On my Marine trader one shorepower inlet dedicated to the air conditioner circuit and one outlet. The other inlet is dedicated to everything else.

 

[Bacchus]

"There is also a solar array and controller that happily reports that it's charging *something* - I assume the house batteries. What's odd is that if the shore power switch is on, all the DC stuff works. However, if you turn that switch off, even the DC stuff stops working..."

This is likely an indication / result of essentially dead house battys. Not enough DC power to run anything on the house but with shore AC running the shore charger it is supplying the DC to run house loads.

Holding tank & hoses... 3 way valves are usually placed in the discharge hose with one side going to the deck fitting for emptying (sucking) the tank... and the second side going to the overboard discharge through a macerator pump. Some tracing necessary to confirm or verify where they all go.

 

[DBG8492]

"There is also a solar array and controller that happily reports that it's charging *something* - I assume the house batteries. What's odd is that if the shore power switch is on, all the DC stuff works. However, if you turn that switch off, even the DC stuff stops working..."

This is likely an indication / result of essentially dead house battys. Not enough DC power to run anything on the house but with shore AC running the shore charger it is supplying the DC to run house loads.

This was something I'd tossed around in my brain. In fact, I'd already ordered a load tester from Amazon before I'd arranged for the electrician.

Holding tank & hoses... 3 way valves are usually placed in the discharge hose with one side going to the deck fitting for emptying (sucking) the tank... and the second side going to the overboard discharge through a macerator pump. Some tracing necessary to confirm or verify where they all go.

I bet you're right. That seacock looks exactly the same as the one on my sailboat that was for OBD - and I'm 90% sure that the vacuum discharge port is where the other hose is leading.

Thanks!

 

[DBG8492]

On my Marine trader one shorepower inlet dedicated to the air conditioner circuit and one outlet. The other inlet is dedicated to everything else.

Well that would at least explain why the panel on the front of the helm with the AC circuit switch isn't powered...

Thanks!

 

[Bacchus]

Suggestion... make notes & diagrams as you confirm pieces of the puzzle. I started tracing of my electrical and thought I'd remember until I had it all figured out to do a good clean diagram... not so I ended up retracing some items to confirm my memory. Make Crude, diagrams w notes, as you go... you'll be glad you did.

 

[Old Sea Dog]

We acquired our GB 36 in the very same way. For all the talk about the boat being his baby, was left with only the Garmin manual. So now the internet search begins and plenty of copy paper and ink.
Check the water in the batteries. Hard to charge a half empty(water) battery.
2 AC inlets usually mean 1 dedicated to air conditioning as has been said. Ours is.
Congrats on the boat.
You eat an elephant one piece at a time.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Have you considered having her towed? If it's not too far the cost could be worth it to reduce the worry and stress of moving an unfamiliar boat that clearly lacks maintenance and documentation.

 

[DBG8492]

@Bacchus

Agreed. I plan to make crude diagrams with notes and transfer them to Visio. Easy to maintain and update.

@Old Sea Dog

The next steps for me are to check the batteries themselves. The 6-volts are all plain-old screw-cap cells, so they may very well all be dry. The start and windlass/thruster batteries are maintenance-free...

@Portage Bay

We considered towing. But having her towed to North Carolina would be cost-prohibitive unless I knew someone else with a boat - and while I do, they're all already in North Carolina, so they won't be much help.

Nothing good in life comes without risk - and what an adventure it will be...

 

[Comodave]

I would make a list of all the problems/things to do. Then assign a priority to each one, like triage in a hospital, and work on the most critical things and let the lesser items go. Good luck.

 

[DBG8492]

I would make a list of all the problems/things to do. Then assign a priority to each one, like triage in a hospital, and work on the most critical things and let the lesser items go. Good luck.

That's pretty much what we've been doing and have knocked out just about everything.

The battery situation and getting the sanitation system sorted are the last two big things.

Divers are coming next week to jet-clean the bottom and the thruster tunnel, replace all the zincs, and check the prop shaft and rudder play. From the dock, the growth doesn't even look all that bad - my sailboat looked much worse after a few months in Bull River near Savannah.

 

[Delta Riverat]

The battery situation and getting the sanitation system sorted are the last two big things./QUOTE]

Yeah, me too. Re - harboring was a 10 hour boat ride and neither head worked. Paid to get the heads fixed and other various stuff. Changed the oil and filters and impellers myself. Paid double slip rent while all this was going down as well as getting trained on how to run the boat.

Yeah all kinds of stuff to do before a big move.

Keep cool and run with the fun. Do the stuff that needs doing first. All these distractions on boats yes? I get waylaid all the time looking at this that needs fixing and that that needs fixing...

And sometimes I forget and leave the part I was going to install at home. Yeah, did that today.

Good luck and fair weather!

 

[Old Sea Dog]

^^^^^
been there and still doing it!

 

[Comodave]

I would contact Peggie Hall, The Head Mistress here on TF, and have her help you with the holding tank issues. She is very knowledgeable and has always been willing to help.

 

[DBG8492]

Update:

All of the batteries were bone dry - the two maintenance-free thruster/windlass batteries were just completely wasted.

Of the ones that were dry, half the house batteries had lead plates that looked okay, so I filled them with distilled to see what happens. The other half looked sulfated so they're gone.

Oh - and before I did anything, I disco'd all banks from any charging systems. I did find the AC chargers - there are two of them mounted on the forward bulkhead - smaller than I thought they'd be and one was already disconnected from AC so I'm going to have to dig into that. When we go back down tomorrow, I will hook the solar back up first and see if they take a charge.

The two start batteries had cells that looked like white sand - never seen anything like it.

So the tentative plan now is to replace the two windlass/thruster and one new start battery for the engine/genny. And if the "good" house batteries don't hold a charge, we will pull and replace just those six - that should be good enough to get us up north.

All the dead ones will be pulled and taken to recycling somewhere.

 

[DBG8492]

I would contact Peggie Hall, The Head Mistress here on TF, and have her help you with the holding tank issues. She is very knowledgeable and has always been willing to help.

Funny, I have actually read a lot of her stuff when dealing with holding tank/sanitation issues on our previous boat - a sailboat with the unfortunate distinction of having the holding tank vent in the anchor locker.

I will try to reach out once we get her on the hard and start the "real work"...

My preliminary conclusion with our situation is that we may need to re-do much of the system. The tank itself does have a clean-out access panel - but holy crap (literally) what an awful job that's going to be....

My dream would be to install a vacu-flush system on her with fresh water - but not sure I can make that a reality...

We shall see.

 

[Comodave]

I have ripped out VacuFlush systems on 4 boats. Too much maintenance, too many leaks. Look at a Raritan Marine Elegance head. Much less expensive and much fewer points of failure. All parts except the control board are contained within the head itself, no vacuum pumps and tanks to deal with. Only use SaniFlex hose for the discharge hose. It is extremely flexible and lasts better than any other hose.

 

[DBG8492]

Batteries and More...

So the latest news.

I scrapped half the house batteries and left the other half because they looked good and had date tags of 06/21 - that makes them not nearly as old as the rest, which were dated 10/17. Figured they might hold a charge.

Bought two new Windlass/Thruster Batteries and a new Engine Start battery - the Genny Battery didn't have a date, but was NOT dry as it turns out, and is now being reconditioned by my portable charger back on the boat. We will see how it fares.

Now for the mystery.

I disconnected ALL of the batteries from the system - all of them. Disconnected from the Solar Controller and the Alternator distributor, then I disconnected the ground wire from the house batteries. I switched off all AC switches including the one marked "Battery Charger."

I would think at this point, anything 12v would stop working - but that's not the case. The 12v lights still work and the ignition will come on if I turn the key...

In addition, the "Freedom 2000" controller continues to function but still has an E-10 on it.

When I went to wire the house batteries back into the system, I connected the positive lead for the house batteries FROM the Alternator Distributor TO the positive side of the first battery in the bank - no problem. When I went to connect the ground, however, sparks - not too bad, but still. If I hold the negative cable - that goes to the main ground point - on the terminal, it will vibrate.

Thinking maybe I'd start smaller, I decided to wire in the new Start Battery - same issue.

So I put a meter between the positive lead from the Alternator Distributor and boat ground - 14v.

Where is that coming from? Is it possible there's a charger somewhere and I just can't find it? Is that charger controlled by the Freedom 2000 and somehow powered without going through the circuit breaker on the AC panel? And when I complete the circuit, why does the Freedom 2000 continue to show E-10, which indicates an open?

Any ideas?

Attached is a rough diagram I made of the wiring and a few pictures of the same.

Pic 1 - Diagram

Next several pics are of the entire system from starboard to port starting at the front of the engine

Pic 2 - Battery switch where the cable from positive Alternator post enters and exits. You can see where it exits and goes through two breakers, then to the Alternator Distribution Panel

Pic 3 - Not sure what those two blue things are, but one of them is disconnected completely and the other has some wires that go to the alternator

Pic 4 - You can see the Alternator Distribution over to the right, and the Solar Distribution (silver box) in the center

Pic 5 - Aft section - you can see the Start Battery just behind the Exhaust Riser

Pic 6 - Alternator Distribution Panel - ProIsoCharge 1-3 - you can see the wire labels on them from right to left - 2F (Bank 2, Forward), Alternator (source), 1S (Bank 1 Start), 3H (Bank 3 House)

Pic 7 - P30L Solar Controller - you can see it is powered off/disconnected

Pic 8 - Solar Distribution/Heat Sink - the wires on the right-hand side aren't connected to anything except for one that runs to the Solar Controller and one that runs to a feed off the Alternator Distributor - You can see it in pic 4 where the wire marked 3H goes into a circuit breaker and on the other side of that breaker, it goes to the right post where the Solar Controller also hooks up.

I'm actually wondering that if - because I removed the batteries that were directly connected to that post, should I move those connections to the replacement house batteries instead. I figured that the other side of that silver heat sink would get power inside that device, but perhaps that's not how it works...?

 

[DBG8492]

Sorry I used some vertical pics - clearly those don't work and I won't do it again...

 

[DBG8492]

Found it...

I found the battery charger. Behind a panel - screwed into the bulkhead below the main cabin door.

It's a "Freedom 25" combination inverter/charger.

https://www.scribd.com/document/135113120/Manual-Heart-Interface-freedom-25

However, there's a problem. I touched it to try to turn it a little to get a better look, and when I did, everything went offline - shore power, 115 outlets, the whole ball of wax.

I managed to get it back online - sort of - but it wouldn't stay online. It would click, click, click - and everything back offline again.

So I shut off the shore power breakers and left to try to figure out a plan.

Why is the charger in-line with Shore Power? Why will shore power not work without the charger on? Why have a switch for a charger if it's just going to run all the time, no matter what?

If I want to remove this thing from the equation, am I going to have to completely re-wire my shore power?

Pic attached - check out the "cooling fan" solution... That's a 12-volt fan wired to the circuit breaker board...

 

[DBG8492]

RTFM Answers a lot of questions

This was a pretty cool device for circa 1990's tech.

It's a "modified sine wave" inverter/charger.

I think this particular model was designed for RVs rather than boats, but there seem to be plenty of people out there still running them and if you have one that's not fried, the parts will fetch a good deal of money on E-Bay.

Regardless, it's designed to run all the time - everything feeds through it. Shore power/genny feeds the charger that charges the batteries, which then feed the inverter that powers all the 120v outlets.

The trick would be - it appears - that you have to have batteries in the loop. I don't think it works at all if there isn't at least one battery connected to the Freedom 25.

There are also circuit breakers on the outside of the thing, and from what I understand, they're not the most stable when it comes to the internal components - I actually read on a bunch of RV forums that the most typical method of getting them to work again is a literal application of force with either your hand or a rubber mallet.

This may have been state of the art back in the 90s, but I don't want it on my boat for any longer than it has to be. I'm going back down there in a bit to run some tests and see if I can get it back online. If not, I have to figure out how to bypass it - as there is no bypass switch. If it's blown, then I have no shore power - just batteries. And if I read the manual correctly, not even the genny will power things unless the Freedom 25 is functional.

So yeah.

 

[DBG8492]

Turns out if you have at least one good battery in the mix, the Freedom 25 works.

Also helps if you have two good shore power cables.

Not sure what happened to the other two, but I don't have time to test/repair. There was another pair on the boat, so I swapped them out. Will grab some plugs and repair them while underway.

Anyway, with shore power breakers off, I put the 12v starter batter in the mix alone, unplugged all 115 devices plugged in except for a work light, and used the remote panel to turn on the inverter. It came on - noisy as hell, but it came on. Switched on the work light and what do you know? It worked.

Flipped shore power breakers - waited 30 seconds - nothing.

Fiancé suggested swapping shore power cables so we did. Flip breaker - five seconds later, Freedom 25 kicks on and starts charging the starter battery. Love panel shows an error because a cable isn't connected - I'm assuming that's because the house bank isn't connected, but I will sort that out later.

I don't really *like* the Freedom 25, but it works for now, and I don't have time to get it swapped out. If it fails underway, we will take an extended stay at a marina along the way, get it bypassed, and use my portable chargers or run the engines if necessary to charge the batteries. If I have time, I will try to hook the solar back up as well.

The remaining house batteries that I thought might still be good are indeed wasted - they won't go over 9.2v, so we will replace them with a couple of 12-volt deep cycle 115 AH wired in series. That should get us where we're going.

After that, the only things left are to re-wire the temp/oil pressure alarm sensors, add a static oil pressure gauge to the main, r/r genny impeller, and change all the fuel filters/Racors.

Divers will be there tomorrow to do their thing, and we should be ready come August first.

 

[DBG8492]

And we're gone...

So we left South Florida for the Carolinas yesterday - by car - with a lot of things accomplished and a lot of things not accomplished - but such is life, and such are boats.

Got the electric sorted out - more or less. That took the majority of our time, unfortunately, and bit into everything else. Ended up shutting off the 12BO switch between the battery banks and the charger/inverter. Didn't fully bypass the Freedom 25, but I'm going to try to locate a known working Link 2000 between now and then and see if that helps. Troubleshooting every wire between the device and the battery banks showed 12V on either side of the fuse block, so I can't think of a reason why the sensors are reporting 0 volts and 0 amps other than that the device itself is broken. Otherwise, we have the alternator and solar for charging and those should be fine for being underway.

We had to R/R heat exchanger and transmission coolers. Former owner had spares of both aboard and although they weren't perfect, after a long soak in Evapo-Rust, they looked a million times better than what was installed when we got there - light all the way through. Didn't have time to have them pressure tested so - I just winged it and installed them both.

Installed a new impeller and couldn't get the pump to prime before we had to leave that last night - the boat is docked at a private residence, and the lady who owns it is nice enough to let me work there, but I don't like pressing my luck. We have three days at the end of the month before getting underway, so I will ensure the raw water system is primed before 1 August.

We did decide to modify our plans a bit and rather than try to get her all the way back to the Carolinas to haul her out - we're trying to find a place between where she is now and where we wanted to go that will either allow us to live on her while we affect the major repairs, or will be close enough so that we can go there just about every weekend and work.

Those kinds of places seem just about as rare as hen's teeth today so I'm not sure we will find what we need and may end up having to go as far north as we were originally planning. If anyone knows a good place with good people who won't demand the blood of your firstborn for a spot of land where you can work on your boat, let me know.

The prices that some of these places get away with charging...

But - such is life, such are boats. If you choose to live this life, you have to accept all of it or you'll be a very unhappy person most of the time. I've met a lot of those people at various marinas, and I don't want to be one of them...