Navionics Advice?

[Capt. Rodbone]

We have two IPADS and each has GPS and cellular. These were purchased last year when I learned that since my older one didn’t have cellular, and I hadn’t pre downloaded applicable charts for that sailing trip, it wasn’t going to do me any good.

We have covered about 3,500 miles in this trip thus far. We have occasionally had lapses where Navionics would stop tracking. The triangle representing the boat stops, maybe spins, course trend line goes away, and all data in corner boxes disappears. See pic below. We pick up the IPAD, do a little dance, shake it around, and it then gets its signal back. We are in the Trent Severn Waterway in Ontario now, and this is getting worse. We worry that when we get to Georgian Bay it’s so remote that We won’t even be able to depend on Navionics.
I’ve downloaded the charts in the area we are in. The only thing I’m wondering about right now that could be a contributing factor, or the reason is this.

When you have downloaded charts for an area, does Navionics AUTOMATICALLY use those, or do I need to somehow tell it to? If so, then this might be my fix. If not. Then something else is going on, and I welcome thoughts and suggestions.

We have a spiral bound book on Georgian Bay, but when we get to Orillia ON today I’m going to look for and hopefully find paper charts to get us around in the bat and North Channel.

 

[CharlieO.]

Do you turn off cellular while cruising/underway?

 

[1trout]

I use a Garmin GLO2 and connect via Bluetooth to my iPad. It provides great accuracy. Look up the details on the web.

 

[chilliwackteryx4]

Not an answer to your question but I use a Garmin Inreach connected via Bluetooth to the IPad. Has been problem free so far and the downloaded section of map shows up automatically.

 

[GoneFarrell]

I use a Dual XGPS puck that blue tooth's to my iPad. Maybe try something like that. Sees GPS and Glonass.

 

[C lectric]

Try moving it to a different place. If like me, I use two Samsungs, different models.
Last year I began to get similar antics from one of them. It is inside the salon high over the dash hanging basically from the overhead and the overhead can interfere with a good, string signal.. Where we were I also figure the clear view of the satellites was mostly behind us and was obscured by the steep, high mountains.

The other in a holder but loose on the top of the dash nearer the window never blinked.

I removed the one goofing up to a different spot and no more problems.
I THINK the position and orientation caused it to loose any good, clear GPS signal and to few enough of them so it did not know where it was.

Your dancing moved it to where it could get a clearer, better signal. Once obtained it can hang on although maybe not perfectly untill it can get a stronger, clearer satellite signal.

I also have a Standard Horizon VHF with the GPS and every once in a while it cannot figure out where it is so the alarm goes off. Of course it too hangs from the overhead inside the cabin. THis happens only when we leave our club dock on the North side of a high island blocking most of the sky view. Once we get farther out into the channel it does fine. I think the cause is they cannot see the satellites or enough of them to find its position.

Finally my 20+ year old Garmin 152 never has a problem BUT the antenna is a remote mount on top of the bridge with a clear, clean view of the sky. THe only trouble is it does not show charts.

Try moving the offender to a better location near a window , not hanging from the overhead.

Most GPS equipped devices, particularly tablets, need to see at least 3 satellites and those satellites need to be far enough apart at different angles & directions, to be able to figure out where they are. Unless they have that they cannot work properly.

 

[Jc180]

Could it be the cell signal input quality as opposed to a Navionics issue? Two thoughts:
1. As others have said an external gps “puck” receiver that bluetooths to iPad would likely solve the problem.
2. Maybe old school, but always have paper charts in use at the helm as backup. And also try to keep up where I am on the paper charts by dead reckoning my location as we go along.

 

[Capt. Rodbone]

Paper charts

I was able to purchase one of the needed paper charts at a Lock and I am hopeful in our next marina. I will be able to obtain the rest.

An earlier reply above suggested a garmin GLO 2. I bought one of those a few weeks ago, but that was with the intention of allowing an iPad that doesn’t have cellular to obtain the same signal is one that does. Thoughts were to have one on Aqua Map, and one on navvy onyx. I have now learned that aqua maps is not nearly as valuable in Canadian waters so I have not used this Garmin sensor, but will give that a try. It certainly can’t hurt.

And an earlier reply also asked if I turn cellular off when using the iPad for Navionics. I have a very strong signal now, but if it starts again and it will, I will try turning cellular off just to see. Maybe that forces it to then use a chart already downloaded? If I find a solution, I will certainly take the time to share.

 

[C lectric]

If his tablet completely goofed up as described and as I described there is NO CELL service in those areas or is so poor as to be useless.

I always advise people to ignore cell phone only positioning when used for boating in anywhere than close by populated areas.

Even in our Gulf Islands areas there are dead spots where cell only devices are useless. Fewer dead spots now than 10 yrs ago but still around.

Going further north in many inlets cell phone only devices might as well be tossed overboard.

 

[Mambo42]

We have Navionics on our cell phones, but also on a dedicated Samsung tablet. That tablet holds all the seagoing apps and is only used for that, so no e-mail, surfing etc.

I did notice that Navionics has different charts (and prices) for apps and for computers. Once you buy the chart you can download it and have it available all the time. So from that moment on it is only the GPS signal that can create problems and we have noticed that moving the tablet to the salon area already creates problems with the accuracy. We drop from 2 mtr accuracy to 10 mtr accuracy.

So for your problem I would be looking at the GPS signal itself, because once you downloaded the charts the whole Navionics system can be used off line.
Needless to say we back Navionics up with Simrad on the Flybridge and Raymarine in the pilothouse. .3

 

[Serene]

I have had exactly the same problem on an iPad Mini. Random GPS dropouts and as soon as I either pickup or move the iPad it comes alive again.

Am sure an external GPS antenna would solve the problem, but it isn't my primary navigation tool, so am not overly worried.

I just like being able to move around the boat with the iPad and keep an eye on things.

 

[Flatswing]

Could it be the cell signal input quality as opposed to a Navionics issue? Two thoughts:
1. As others have said an external gps “puck” receiver that bluetooths to iPad would likely solve the problem.
2. Maybe old school, but always have paper charts in use at the helm as backup. And also try to keep up where I am on the paper charts by dead reckoning my location as we go along.

Not likely the cell service: the thing with iPads is that the GPS capability is only installed on iPads that have cellular capability (I.e. can accept a SIM card. As long as the iPad has this capability, you don’t need aSim card or cellular service for normal navigation. Your iPad does need to be able to “see” the satellites though as others have posted. Most Android/Samsung tablets have the gps chip regardless of cellular capability.

You do need cellular service to update charts and Active Captain, WWG etc. though most Nav systems work fine on the most recently downloaded data until they can be updated. There have been a few reports of Navionics app acting strangely when not updated, but I can’t confirm as I don’t use the app version.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

The cellular-equipped iPad and the Garmin GLO 2 both receive the same GPS signals, true? Isn't the difference in how Navionics uses those data streams just a function of signal strength and/or antenna location?

 

[1trout]

The cellular-equipped iPad and the Garmin GLO 2 both receive the same GPS signals, true? Isn't the difference in how Navionics uses those data streams just a function of signal strength and/or antenna location?

I believe the following is true, but I'd love to get more definitive information if someone can provide it: A current model iPad (with GPS) and a GLO2 use the same GPS and GLONASS satellites. The GLO2 links up quicker, refreshes position faster, and provides slightly better accuracy than the iPad GPS, particularly when moving at faster boat speeds. That's why I use both together.

 

[Giggitoni]

We have two IPADS and each has GPS and cellular. These were purchased last year when I learned that since my older one didn’t have cellular, and I hadn’t pre downloaded applicable charts for that sailing trip, it wasn’t going to do me any good.

We have covered about 3,500 miles in this trip thus far. We have occasionally had lapses where Navionics would stop tracking. The triangle representing the boat stops, maybe spins, course trend line goes away, and all data in corner boxes disappears. See pic below. We pick up the IPAD, do a little dance, shake it around, and it then gets its signal back. We are in the Trent Severn Waterway in Ontario now, and this is getting worse. We worry that when we get to Georgian Bay it’s so remote that We won’t even be able to depend on Navionics.
I’ve downloaded the charts in the area we are in. The only thing I’m wondering about right now that could be a contributing factor, or the reason is this.

When you have downloaded charts for an area, does Navionics AUTOMATICALLY use those, or do I need to somehow tell it to? If so, then this might be my fix. If not. Then something else is going on, and I welcome thoughts and suggestions.

We have a spiral bound book on Georgian Bay, but when we get to Orillia ON today I’m going to look for and hopefully find paper charts to get us around in the bat and North Channel.

Our Navionics app will freeze up also…until we move the iPad around. Frustrating! Haven’t been able to find out why. That’s why we switched to Aqua Map.

 

[Jeff F]

My guess is that the power management system powers down the GPS chip to reduce power consumption. I've had this happen on Android devices. Not an Apple user, but check power management and location services settings.

 

[tiz]

Turn iff wifi bluetooth and cellular (airplane mode) and see if it improves. Weve used same setup but not in as high latitude as you. May need ipad in more clear view of the sky to make better gps connection.

--kevin

 

[Mambo42]

My guess is that the power management system powers down the GPS chip to reduce power consumption. I've had this happen on Android devices. Not an Apple user, but check power management and location services settings.

I have the same idea. When we use the anchor pro app sometimes the alarm comes on for absolutely no reason. After checking the alarm it states that GPS signal is lost.
So I guess indeed the GPS gets shut down or lowered in priority when the tablet or phone is inactive for a long time.
It does get your attention however in the middle of the night.

 

[Greg S]

Answer #12 from Flatswing wins the prize.

No cell service required for iPad to perform as a chart plotter. Internet connection required to download the charts. They keep operating but should be updated periodically (monthly?).

 

[Hippocampus]

As an aside through the years have had similar troubles with various devices which have self contained gps. Go to solution has been to put external gps hockey pucks in places with the clearest non obstructed views of the entire sky. Over ride the internal gps and use the external hockey puck has always improved things.
Do you have trouble when the pad is on the flybridge? If not it may be a solution for you to use an external puck. Now we are in a trawler. We typically have a MFD running with navionics on a IPad next to it when in the pilot house. Like having at least two different chart sources so have a non navionics non C-MAP running on another iPad as well. However the iPads are placed so they have a fairly clear view of the sky. Keep one of our fans aimed at them to keep heat down even though there’s AC in the pilot house.

 

[Hi Ho]

We have been in the North Channel for the month of July. I have 4 chart plotters, a Garmin, Standard Horizon w/Cmaps,, Coastal Explorer and Aquamaps on a Samsung Galaxy. The Aquamaps has been hands down the best so far, always spot on with current details and just solid in performance. The second in performance has been Coastal Explorer. I was talking with a gentleman who has been through the Whaleback Channel several times and got confused, he still trying to figure out why his Garmin and Navionics didn't show several bouys, he purchased some paper charts and the bouys were not on them either. My Aquamaps was the only chart plotter that did, which i get updates whenever i can connect. Why Aquamaps in my experience is more accurate i can't say but certainly a unbelievable value.
Hopefully you get it figured out

 

[Flatswing]

I believe the following is true, but I'd love to get more definitive information if someone can provide it: A current model iPad (with GPS) and a GLO2 use the same GPS and GLONASS satellites. The GLO2 links up quicker, refreshes position faster, and provides slightly better accuracy than the iPad GPS, particularly when moving at faster boat speeds. That's why I use both together.

I believe you are correct. I use my iPad running Aqua map concurrently with my Simrad MFD’s running Navionics. The MFD’s receives their GPS signal from my Vesper XB8000 external gps antenna propagated on the NMEA 2000 network.
But: the iPad can either use it’s built in gps or the Vesper gps (over Wi-Fi). The Vesper gps is considerably better and faster on the iPad though it’s still nice to have a completely separate backup system.

 

[jgwinks]

Sounds like the iPad gps just isn't very good compared to a built for navigation device. It's only there because by FCC rules all cell phones (and a cellular capable tablet is just a big cell phone) must have GPS so responders can find you if you call 911. Same as calling from a landline phone, the dispatchers see your street address. That probably doesn't require the quality of receiver that a real navigation device has, so I'm not surprised the iPad might drop out while the mfd keeps working. I haven't seen this happen on my two android tablets though.

 

[Portage_Bay]

When threads like this that discuss the problems with iPads for navigation, I wonder why continue to struggle with the iPad when switching to Android is an inexpensive, reliable solution.

On our boat she is iDevice. I am Android. She sometimes has the problems mentioned. I never do. Android GPS just works.

I have had a long time to compare the accuracy of Android GPS to built for navigation equipment, both marine and terrestrial. I find the Android GPS to be as accurate.

That said I won't use a tablet or phone as a primary navigation device. I use it as backup. And as another poster said an additional display for different chart sources.

 

[Serene]

When threads like this that discuss the problems with iPads for navigation, I wonder why continue to struggle with the iPad when switching to Android is an inexpensive, reliable solution.

[SNIP]

Because some people don't accept the insidious nature of Google and what they are doing with your personal data that you have no idea about!

 

[jgwinks]

Because some people don't accept the insidious nature of Google and what they are doing with your personal data that you have no idea about!

If you are using the Android just for navigation, there's no need for any personal info on the device. Save that for your iPhone if you're concerned. Frankly I think that issue is blown out of proportion and there are ways to get around it.

 

[sjisailor]

My two iPads have always been rock solid for GPS ... using an external GPS device like the Dual GPS mentioned in post #5 (on one iPad) or the BadElf GPS (on another). Between them I prefer the BadElf slightly but both are good. They can also feed Android.

Another option is a NMEA to WiFi gateway like the one by YachtDevices. That feeds the system GPS to an iPad and also has worked great. That has been my general solution (with the BadElf device along as backup and for portability).

Agreed that AquaMap is superb and a bargain. I find it painful to use the Navionics app by comparison because it is so much slower and generally clunky.

 

[Capt. Rodbone]

Update after a week or so

So here is where we are. Thanks again for all of your input. I’ll summarize what I’ve done since last post and share what I’m going to do next, then if those fail my last resort.
1. A forum suggestion was for me to turn OFF THE IPAD CELLULAR since Charts are downloaded onto the device, supposedly negating the need for cellular. Was worth a try but didn’t work.
2. Removed Navionics from EVERY DEVICE WE HAVE AND REINSTALLED. That included also reloading our needed charts. While doing this I decided that if by chance it was related to how many charts I had downloaded at one time, I only reloaded those needed for only the Georgian Bay ON area. This had no affect either.
3. Currently buddy boating with friends. The husband enters routes on his IPAD, sends them to his wife’s IPAD, and also imports them into his chart plotter. They have had zero issues, even having been no more than a mile or so from us for a few weeks. Last night before a joint dinner while rafted I had the thought to get her to sit with me while each had our respective pads we went through EVERY setting on hers and compared it to ours. Not a single change needed, so mystery continues.
MY NEXT STEPS
Just before our next journey, I’m going to get the same route loaded on this IPAD that our friends have on their pad and chart plotter. I’m going to also load that course onto our other IPad, which also has the same issue, and when we run both it happens almost simultaneously with each. BY THEY WAY, I’d previously mentioned that we could usually pick up the pad and shake it which brought back the signal and thus position/route. Yesterday, as we were leaving the small vessel channel and entering the bay anchorage chosen it started with a vengeance and after a couple of shakes and dances it stopped having an effect. If you know this area you know that the trade off for all this beauty is navigating where should you stray from course it’s not mud or sand you will find it’s solid rock! It’s a short season up here but I think prop and fiberglass people do well. We know 4 boats that have had to be hauled and repaired, and God bless them, two of those for TWICE! For these reasons we know of boats that have decided to forego most of the beauty of this 30,000 island area and stay out in deep water to only come in and out only as far as to find a safe anchorage, but we feel that defeats the purpose. So with the same course loaded and running on all pads and plotters I’m going to get them to take my IPAD with them, getting it off our boat. If we have the issue on ours we can call them and ask if it’s happening on mine on their boat? If so then doesn’t that tell me it’s an “our boat environment” issue? We have a small very old installed plotter that we run but really don’t use however I do “power it up” our of habit when we are prepping for the journey when I also start VHF and depth finder. Maybe it somehow interferes with my pad while it does it’s own satellite searches? After we do the IPAD on the other boat test should that prove out the my boat is culprit then I’ll shut the plotter off and see what happens.

I’ll share (because someone is going to reply this way) that I have CURRENT PAPER CHARTS FOR ALL OF THIS AREA AND USE THEM. They are helpful, and I can certainly see where the dangers are, but these are very narrow winding channels, plus you have to leave the channel to anchor. I would hate to but I may run out of possible solutions and need to start rigorous plotting, putting a chart fix when I have the signal, and then dead reckon until the signal returns, allowing for the next fix. What a PITA.
By all means dive into our mystery with us and share your thoughts please.

 

[Capt. Rodbone]

Update after a week or so

So here is where we are. Thanks again for all of your input. I’ll summarize what I’ve done since last post and share what I’m going to do next, then if those fail my last resort.
1. A forum suggestion was for me to turn OFF THE IPAD CELLULAR since Charts are downloaded onto the device, supposedly negating the need for cellular. Was worth a try but didn’t work.
2. Removed Navionics from EVERY DEVICE WE HAVE AND REINSTALLED. That included also reloading our needed charts. While doing this I decided that if by chance it was related to how many charts I had downloaded at one time, I only reloaded those needed for only the Georgian Bay ON area. This had no affect either.
3. Currently buddy boating with friends. The husband enters routes on his IPAD, sends them to his wife’s IPAD, and also imports them into his chart plotter. They have had zero issues, even having been no more than a mile or so from us for a few weeks. Last night before a joint dinner while rafted I had the thought to get her to sit with me while each had our respective pads we went through EVERY setting on hers and compared it to ours. Not a single change needed, so mystery continues.
MY NEXT STEPS
Just before our next journey, I’m going to get the same route loaded on this IPAD that our friends have on their pad and chart plotter. I’m going to also load that course onto our other IPad, which also has the same issue, and when we run both it happens almost simultaneously with each. BY THEY WAY, I’d previously mentioned that we could usually pick up the pad and shake it which brought back the signal and thus position/route. Yesterday, as we were leaving the small vessel channel and entering the bay anchorage chosen it started with a vengeance and after a couple of shakes and dances it stopped having an effect. If you know this area you know that the trade off for all this beauty is navigating where should you stray from course it’s not mud or sand you will find it’s solid rock! It’s a short season up here but I think prop and fiberglass people do well. We know 4 boats that have had to be hauled and repaired, and God bless them, two of those for TWICE! For these reasons we know of boats that have decided to forego most of the beauty of this 30,000 island area and stay out in deep water to only come in and out only as far as to find a safe anchorage, but we feel that defeats the purpose. So with the same course loaded and running on all pads and plotters I’m going to get them to take my IPAD with them, getting it off our boat. If we have the issue on ours we can call them and ask if it’s happening on mine on their boat? If so then doesn’t that tell me it’s an “our boat environment” issue? We have a small very old installed plotter that we run but really don’t use however I do “power it up” our of habit when we are prepping for the journey when I also start VHF and depth finder. Maybe it somehow interferes with my pad while it does it’s own satellite searches? After we do the IPAD on the other boat test should that prove out the my boat is culprit then I’ll shut the plotter off and see what happens.

I’ll share (because someone is going to reply this way) that I have CURRENT PAPER CHARTS FOR ALL OF THIS AREA AND USE THEM. They are helpful, and I can certainly see where the dangers are, but these are very narrow winding channels, plus you have to leave the channel to anchor. I would hate to but I may run out of possible solutions and need to start rigorous plotting, putting a chart fix when I have the signal, and then dead reckon until the signal returns, allowing for the next fix. What a PITA.
By all means dive into our mystery with us and share your thoughts please.

 

[Terry Wilkinson]

I’m having trouble with Navionics on my iPad, non cellular iPad I use Bad Elf gps and have been using for years in various locations no problems.

Now it starts up and navigates leaving a location but after 30 minutes or so, it locks up and shows our position as being where we left and won’t change, did the same on Aqua maps.

Thinking I need to buy a new iPad with cellular? Any ideas?