Is a ROC-M with DSC required by Transport Canada?

[soin2la]

A VHF upgrade will almost certainly mean having a DSC unit.

I hold a “good for life” Transport Canada ROC-M and am getting mixed answers about operator license requirements for the new radio.

TC has failed to reply and opinions from CPS, RCMSAR and vendors, range from DSC endorsement “not needed” to “mandatory.”

I know a lot of people who have a DSC radio, but have not upgraded their ROC.

Any Canadians here who have a firsthand experience with this? No point in tossing $100-$250 on a license change if it is not required. I can buy a couple gallons of fuel with that.

 

[JDCAVE]

Your ROC-M will be just fine. My radios have DSC and I never use it. I’ll betcha that most Cdn boaters aren’t compliant with ROC-M. FYI, I have a ROC-M.

Check with Golden Dawn on this forum. He’s with RCMSAR and is quite knowledgeable on these subjects.

Jim

 

[SteveK]

I have one radio with DSC, no MMSI as I have never found a need. The MMSI is free. What is the expected cost $100-250 for? The course appears to be the ROC course with a section on DSC. Must find my card and see if I have DCS endorsement, probably not since I took the course when dinosaurs roamed the earth. Another money grab. I taught the ROC with CPS. You took the course, you passed.
Unless you already have a group that wants to communicate privately, why have it. The only reason is if you need to push the red button to call for help.
We live in a strange world, you need an DSC endorsement to operate a safety device, an ROC-M to talk on a radio that does not need to be licensed when used within Canada.

 

[Greg S]

I teach, and I also examine for the ROCM radio courses.

You have a good question, and I’m not positive of the answer. It has been asked before, but I have never seen a definitive answer written by any authority. According to the government website certificates are valid for life and there is no renewal requirement. If you got your ROCM prior to DSC and prior to the DSC endorsement, you are encouraged to upgrade to a DSC endorsement but I have seen nothing that says you have to.
Up until about two years ago you could take an exam for just the DSC segment. That is no longer the case, you now must take the entire exam.
There is so much information concerning DSC and the Global Maritime Distress and Safety System that it’s worth taking the course for that information alone.
Not using DSC functions of the radio is like having a smart phone and only using it for phone calls.
I encourage you to upgrade your radio to include AIS and interface it with your chart plotter.

 

[psneeld]

Pretty sure the MMSI ID's you....... and if hooked to a GPS or the radio has an internal one.... the red distress button becomes a useful tool.

 

[soin2la]

Thank you all for your replies.
Greg S, since posting I have heard back from TC and you come closest to the prize.

This question came about when a friend had his boat on the hard in Nanaimo and while there, found a good deal on a new VHF. He was told by the merchant, an endorsement to the ROC-M was required. He then checked with a local, former CPS instructor who advised it wasn’t legal for the store to sell a VHF with DSC to a person with no DSC endorsement.

The more the questions, the more confusing the answers, so your comment about not having a definitive answer is on the mark and is why I contacted TC.

In typical bureaucratic fashion, after being passed to three subsequent contacts, I received the official response from TC, or more specifically, Spectrum Management Operations Branch / Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada / Government of Canada:

>>To operate a VHF or Single Side Band radio in Canada, you must have an ROC-M certificate. The ROC-M certificate with DSC Endorsement certifies you to operate VHF and MF/HF (single side band) radios in Canada. Basically, it is not required but if you got your ROC-M license before the DSC component was added to the course you are encouraged to get the DSC endorsement if your radio is equipped with DSC.

For a vessel carrying 12 or more passengers DSC is required and the DSC endorsement addition to your ROC-M license is required as well.

There is more information in the below link.
Bulletin No.: 04/2002 (canada.ca)<<

The question of cost arose because the only way for a holder of current ROC-M to get the DSC endorsement is to challenge the exam at a minimum cost of +/-$100, or take the entire new ROC-M course at +/-$250, depending on where the course is taken.

To further muddy the waters, CPS is the ROC-M administrator and license issuer.

Like you, Jim and SteveK, I am a long time holder of the ROC-M (1983) and don’t want a new issue if not needed.

The linked information is yet another example of bureaucracy gone mad, as it is contradictory and lends itself to an individual’s interpretation. As well, it is very common these days, especially with social media, for everyone to be an expert. That former CPS instructor mentioned above also stated, ROC-M courses could not be taken without a CDN (Candidate Document Number). CDN for this purpose was discontinued in 2016.

 

[Action]

The linked information is yet another example of bureaucracy gone mad, as it is contradictory and lends itself to an individual’s interpretation. As well, it is very common these days, especially with social media, for everyone to be an expert. That former CPS instructor mentioned above also stated, ROC-M courses could not be taken without a CDN (Candidate Document Number). CDN for this purpose was discontinued in 2016.

May be a rhetorical question.

You are on the water or in a port.
Some authority decides to board, for whatever reason, and check for everything.
If the administrative authorities on land are not clear or have to interpret guidelines. What is the authority on the water going to interpret or decide?

On the water, the event is going down in real time with little to no room for arbitration. What if the authority that has boarded believes you (the yacht owner) have broken the law but they have not found anything yet. Going on a fishing expedition with my paper work that isn't clearly defined by the bureaucracy seem like a good way to get into hot water.

 

[SteveK]

My interpretation is having a radio, with or without DSC, MMSI, with or without an ROC-M, with or without DSC endorsement is mute unless you are caught using the radio without also having the peice of paper that says you can use it. And if you are using the radio, you better have the card that says you are authorised to operate a boat.

 

[soin2la]

And if you are using the radio, you better have the card that says you are authorised to operate a boat.

And there we go again, with individual interpretation. How about the guy with a radio who doesn't have a boat?

Very few regulations are clear and many enforcers are not adequately informed. Remember the recent border crossing discussion?

You live in BC, one of not many jurisdictions, which has flashing green traffic lights, usually pedestrian operated. My neighbour, a cop, did not know, when that light turns red it is the same as a stop sign and it is legal to proceed on the red, if it is safe to do so.

 

[SteveK]

And there we go again, with individual interpretation. How about the guy with a radio who doesn't have a boat?

..................

But it is against the law to operate a vhf on land.

 

[soin2la]

But it is against the law to operate a vhf on land.

But you can be on the water without owning a boat or needing a PCOC.

 

[JDCAVE]

And there we go again, with individual interpretation. How about the guy with a radio who doesn't have a boat?...

If they are broadcasting, that would be unauthorized use, unless they are a marina on 66A, and then must be at 1 watt.

I’m wonder how many boaters actually have a ROC-M? [emoji848]

 

[soin2la]

I’m wonder how many boaters actually have a ROC-M?

Just listening to radio use, I'm guesing it would be a very small number. Many kayakers fit in that box.

But then very few recreational boaters have any formal boater ed. On the other hand, I would trust an unlicensed 10 year old in Ocen Falls ahead most 25 year olds on Okanagan Lake, licensed or not.

 

[JDCAVE]

Just listening to radio use, I'm guesing it would be a very small number. Many kayakers fit in that box.



But then very few recreational boaters have any formal boater ed. On the other hand, I would trust an unlicensed 10 year old in Ocen Falls ahead most 25 year olds on Okanagan Lake, licensed or not.

From the “radio chatter” I’ve heard, the worst are the sport fishing fleet. Open mic’s, excessive chat on 16, rude. This list goes on. They also have no clue at all about the Colregs. Another group that’s problematic are sail boaters. 90% of the time I hail them they never reply. And as far as the Colregs, I think they believe, because they have a mast, they are always the “Stand-on Vessel”.

Case-in-point: Lol! We were off San Josef Bay, in Pea Soup fog, watching in horror a sail boat (on radar and AIS), traveling with a group of 4 sail boats. He was under sail, and tacking back and forth. He came within an indiscernible distance with another boat. Finally his fellow sailers politely admonished him for his actions. Needless to say we increased speeds and gave him a very wide berth!

 

[GoldenDawn]

I can't answer your original question but sounds like TC "sort of did."

But from a Search and Rescue perspective, I am a huge believer in the DSC. On RCMSAR call outs, we hardly ever are given an accurate position for the causality, so each mission starts with a search. If you are a mile off in reporting your position, a square mile is a big area to search! Sending in a DSC position in an emergency (red button) gets a lat/lon (if connected to GPS) and vessel description (if a MMSI has been entered). A data string is also more likely to be received clearly by Canadian Coast Guard (CCG); there are lots of VHF holes in BC. And in an emergency, you might not have time to answer CCG's 20 questions.

I know that CCG dislikes the DSC because 90% of the alerts do not have a lat/lon or MMSI associated with the red button, so then they have to start broadcasting for vessel in distress. When the Queen of the North ran aground in 2006, it took 21 minutes to get an accurate position report - 3 times CCG had to call back to the ship for a position.

The point is that the red button on your DSC radio can be a real time saver in an emergency.

 

[soin2la]

An interesting added chapter, thank you Golden Dawn.

 

[psneeld]

I can't answer your original question but sounds like TC "sort of did."

But from a Search and Rescue perspective, I am a huge believer in the DSC. On RCMSAR call outs, we hardly ever are given an accurate position for the causality, so each mission starts with a search. If you are a mile off in reporting your position, a square mile is a big area to search! Sending in a DSC position in an emergency (red button) gets a lat/lon (if connected to GPS) and vessel description (if a MMSI has been entered). A data string is also more likely to be received clearly by Canadian Coast Guard (CCG); there are lots of VHF holes in BC. And in an emergency, you might not have time to answer CCG's 20 questions.

I know that CCG dislikes the DSC because 90% of the alerts do not have a lat/lon or MMSI associated with the red button, so then they have to start broadcasting for vessel in distress. When the Queen of the North ran aground in 2006, it took 21 minutes to get an accurate position report - 3 times CCG had to call back to the ship for a position.

The point is that the red button on your DSC radio can be a real time saver in an emergency.

Agree.... pretty much the same in the USA.

 

[OldDan1943]

“I’m sorry we cannot expend any rescue assets because you are not current license holder.”